Ireland-most points?

I have just been informed that Ireland have scored the most points and the most tries in the competition.I along with many think Ireland's attack has been incredibly poor but yet we have scored the most tries and mostly through the backs.How is this possible?

They just beat italy by 40 points

England beat Italy by 4 , France by 16 so clearly Italy aren't that bad or england and france just have even worse attack

It's all Rhys Priestland's fault.

I blame BOD. If he'd been playing they'd have scored less tries but at least won the matches against Wales and France.

Once Wales have played italy the most points will belong to them.

So no need to worry.

maestegmafia wrote:They just beat italy by 40 points

By 40 points? I thought 32 myself

biltongbek wrote:Once Wales have played italy the most points will belong to them.

So no need to worry.

Do you really think so biltong?

Italy had a woeful day against Ireland, i honestly cant expect they play that badly against Wales. I expect Wales to win but not by the same margin.

Billy, the problem I see s with Italy's backs against the all pace, all power welsh back line. You will expect North, Roberts and Cuthbert to run the toffee out of them, and then you still have Halfpenny and Davies with those quick runs, quick offloads to deal with.

And as soon as Italy starts to drift out, Phillips will snipe inside.

I expect Italy to be within 12 or so by half time, but after 60 minutes the dam wall will break.

I really am not so sure about that biltong. I think we will see the same side turn up agains Wales that turned up against France. They sure as hell cant be as poor as they were against Ireland.

Scoring points is one thing. Scoring them when you need to is another.

The only statistic that matters is we have played 3 Won 1 Lost 1 and Drawn 1 and can't finish higher than 2nd.

Impressive stats on defence and attack are no consolation for the fact that we can't win any silverware this season.

What if Ireland do finish second on 7 points but also have the highest attack and best defense rodders? Would you call it a sucess or improvement?

biltongbek wrote:Billy, the problem I see s with Italy's backs against the all pace, all power welsh back line. You will expect North, Roberts and Cuthbert to run the toffee out of them, and then you still have Halfpenny and Davies with those quick runs, quick offloads to deal with.

And as soon as Italy starts to drift out, Phillips will snipe inside.

I expect Italy to be within 12 or so by half time, but after 60 minutes the dam wall will break.

I really hope you're right about that Bilton :-)

Subs, I am pretty confident that is what is going to happen. when you look at Italy vs France, Italy had the Lions share of possession and territory against a French team that was really not playing well at all.

They won te game by virtue of a few individual breaks and t was pace that did it for them.

During the Ireland game they were put to the sword and Ireland who lloked like they have no ace out wide against Wales, ran circles around the ITalians.

You can only assume with Wales' backline being in good form, that their pace and offloads will be too much for the Italians.

Good question Billy. You could argue both ways.

Glass half full you could say that we had tough fixtures, no BOD, no backs coach, no Gert Smal, could have beaten France and Wales blah blah blah.....

However the reality is that others sides have been more progressive in terms of selection, France, England and Italy have new coaching teams and they are all building for the future.

Kidney has gone for the tried and tested, under IRFU instructions to prioritise winning rather than building, and it has backfired. Three games in and we are out of contention.

We haven't introduced many new players and haven't seen much imrovement, if any, from last season. Our attacking play has been laboured and predictable and our game plan negative and defence orientated.

Once again we've come up short against the top sides and have struggled to put 80mins together.

No I'd say we have gone backwards again regardless of the next two games. It been another frustrating and disappointing campaign.

I guess i am the cup half full type person rodders. For all of Kidney's faults, Ireland have really not been that bad.

I think this is the strongest side Italy have put out and Wales have to guard against them and be very strong in defence. Italy fell off the pce in the 2nd half v Ireland and got sloppy. Arguably Italy were the better side in the first half. Wales will look to score early here and get the Italians on the back foot where they are likely to lose their discipline. A couple of years ago I would have agreed that Italy would be within 10 points going into the last 20 with the power and fitness for Wales pushing them through, however I think this welsh side means business and they haven't really fired yet and that's why I'm expecting a very strong start from them in order to demoralise the fragile Italian psyche. Here's hoping

eirebilly wrote:I guess i am the cup half full type person rodders. For all of Kidney's faults, Ireland have really not been that bad.

Yeah Billy but should 'not that bad' be the expectation? I don't think it should. We have 3 teams in the HEC QF and won the GS only three seasons ago. Our provincial teams are playing really effective attacking rugby, so why are the same players just booting the ball away or running slow ball and getting isolated for the national side? Why are we so laboured at getting the ball away from the rucks? Why is the attacking play so lateral? Why is their no support play?

Why is Trimble so effective for Ulster but annonomous for Ireland? Why does Sexton stand so deep when he stands flat at Leinster? Why is Murrays service so slow? Why is Donnacha Ryan's scrummaging supposedly a problem for Ireland but not Munster? Why is O'Brien trucking into heavy traffic?

WHY WHY WHY Billy????!!! I expect better man!

Not that bad was more in reference to some posters who have been claiming that Ireland have been seriously poor rodders

eirebilly wrote:Not that bad was more in reference to some posters who have been claiming that Ireland have been seriously poor rodders

Seriously poor is a relative term Billy. If the expectation is that we should be serious contenders then we haven't delivered for the 3rd season running.

There is a cumulutive frustration I think that we aren't really improving yet the coaches are very reluctant to change anything.

There have been good spells but there have been too many negatives again for me.

1 poor penalty decision against Wales cost you, otherwise your season would be looking very good even though you are rebuilding to some extent

eirebilly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Once Wales have played italy the most points will belong to them.

So no need to worry.

Do you really think so biltong?

Italy had a woeful day against Ireland, i honestly cant expect they play that badly against Wales. I expect Wales to win but not by the same margin.

Mind you you also thought Wales couldn't beat Ireland at Lansdown Road.

Maes, predicting a win for an on form welsh team vs an Italy team who simply does not have the pace in the back to compete, is a different story to two closely matched teams.

Oh, ys, and if it wasn't for that final penatly Wales got vs Ireland, I would have been correct.

maestegmafia wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Once Wales have played italy the most points will belong to them.

So no need to worry.

Do you really think so biltong?

Italy had a woeful day against Ireland, i honestly cant expect they play that badly against Wales. I expect Wales to win but not by the same margin.

Mind you you also thought Wales couldn't beat Ireland at Lansdown Road.

Maest, again you drag this up. I picked that Ireland would win before the teams were announced because i thought that Wales would be missing a few players but had maintained the whole time that i could not pick who would win. I think that its really time for you to drop this, its getting really old.

RubyGuby wrote: 1 poor penalty decision against Wales cost you, otherwise your season would be looking very good even though you are rebuilding to some extent

Very generous of you there ruby but the reality is we are not rebuilding. We have mostly stuck with the old guard and were there have been changes its been mainly down to injury.

Ifs and buts we were dominated and beaten by Wales at home and capitulated against France from a strong position. The results are less disappointing than the manner of them.

Even against a very poor Italy side the scoreline flattered us.

Its not all doom and gloom but Ireland need to be realistic about the quality of these performances and accept that they are not of the required standard.

Ireland needs a new midfield.

biltongbek wrote:Ireland needs a new midfield.

In a way, yes they do but what Ireland need above all else is a manager that will be prepared to chance his arm. Drop Sexton to 12, ROG 10 a,d Earles (who played very well against France) and you have a reasonable midfield. i dont want to be hard on Trimble but i would bench him and bring in either Zebo or Dave Kearney.

I know where you're coming from Rodders and I don't disagree - you have been tinkering with the side (and it needs it) - It will be intersting without POC and Murray and I think it will help you along with the other forward adjustments. There was a better game plan in the first half against France and although you were all disappointed France are no mugs at home and have big game players that brought them back into it. I think you guys are being a bit harsh on times and in all honesty after a win v Scotland I think your season will defined against England. A win there and its a good season, a defeat and its a poor one. These are fine lines but they make such a difference.

eirebilly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Ireland needs a new midfield.

In a way, yes they do but what Ireland need above all else is a manager that will be prepared to chance his arm. Drop Sexton to 12, ROG 10 a,d Earles (who played very well against France) and you have a reasonable midfield. i dont want to be hard on Trimble but i would bench him and bring in either Zebo or Dave Kearney.

I understand to a certain extent you want O'Gara at 10, he is tactically good with his kicks and a reliable goal kicker, But I can see Ireland have less chance to attack as O'Gara sometimes are to deep and doesn't show enough vision on attack, regardless of his experience.

In my opinion it will be a backward step if O'Gara plays at starts at 10.

He has looked good a few times he came on as sub in the last mintues, especially when Ireland is leading and you need his tactical nous to get away from your own red zone in the last quarter.

ROG is alot more attacking than you give him credit for biltong and with Sexton at 12 then that is 100% better than having D'Arcy there, both in attack and defence.

There has long been this myth that ROG is only a good tactical kicker but people forget that he was also the 10 at the time (under EOS) when Ireland were one of the most potent attacking teams around.

eirebilly wrote:. i dont want to be hard on Trimble but i would bench him and bring in either Zebo or Dave Kearney.

I don't think its harsh Billy, hes had a run he hasn't performed... well hes done ok to be fair.

However again I'd ask the question why he is so prominant and effective for Ulster and so quiet for Ireland. For Ulster he is used a lot coming through the middle where he is most effective. Why do Ireland pick players and not play them to their strengths? Even Bowe hasn't been used much. Remember the winning try at twickenham in 2010, Bowe scything through of Sextons inside pass of teh lineout?

Where have all the 1st phase attacks gone?

Horgan recently said that Kidney was more focused on mutiphase attacking patterns than first phase moves. Clearly this approach is failing us.

I may be wrong but I see him in the same mould as Morne Steyn.

We just aren't as dangerous as we can be in attack with him there.

Irelands midfield has been fine. Darce and Earls have had a decent tournament and they are both bloody good players.

Ireland have played quite well too. Seems to me now that our defines has improved our biggest problem is managing the ref. We are not getting the rub of the green here. Part of it is our own fault.

Against France Cian Healy conceded a penalty for contesting a ball in the ruck. The ref penalised him because he adjudged he was part of the tackle which was a pretty bad decision because Heaslip made the tackle. That said it was still Healys fault because the ref told him to let go and he didn't. Poor ref management. Parra slotted the pen to make it 17-17.

V Wales Ferris was penalised for a world class legal tackle. Halfpenny slotted the pen to win the match.

This years six nations is the most competitive in 20 years therefore it comes down to fine margins. If we got the rub of the green or managed the ref a little better v Wales and France we could fairly easily be 3 from 3.

I have no idea what instructions Trimble is getting from Kidney rodders but he is not getting the ball where he wants it. Far too often he is caught in no-mans land, not all his fault but more a result of the gameplan (or lack of) i feel.

eirebilly wrote:There has long been this myth that ROG is only a good tactical kicker but people forget that he was also the 10 at the time (under EOS) when Ireland were one of the most potent attacking teams around.

Billy we had two of the most dangerous centres in world rugby then, flanked by Hickie and Horgan. All O'Gara had to do was ship the ball to D'arcy or BOD and we were away. ROG is a very good passer but that it really. He is not, nor ever has been a creative fly-half with the ball.

The bigger problem is why Sexton is so deep when he plays for Ireland and why the 8-9-10 unit does not function.

eirebilly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Once Wales have played italy the most points will belong to them.

So no need to worry.

Do you really think so biltong?

Italy had a woeful day against Ireland, i honestly cant expect they play that badly against Wales. I expect Wales to win but not by the same margin.

Mind you you also thought Wales couldn't beat Ireland at Lansdown Road.

Maest, again you drag this up. I picked that Ireland would win before the teams were announced because i thought that Wales would be missing a few players but had maintained the whole time that i could not pick who would win. I think that its really time for you to drop this, its getting really old.

I brought it up once after the game.

But your reasoning for predicting Ireland as favourites in that game is pertinent to your current argument that Wales will have a tougher challenge than most of us are predicting.

A welsh team with a large injury list could beat Ireland in Dublin. Ireland thrashes Italy by forty points.

roddersm wrote:

eirebilly wrote:There has long been this myth that ROG is only a good tactical kicker but people forget that he was also the 10 at the time (under EOS) when Ireland were one of the most potent attacking teams around.

Billy we had two of the most dangerous centres in world rugby then, flanked by Hickie and Horgan. All O'Gara had to do was ship the ball to D'arcy or BOD and we were away. ROG is a very good passer but that it really. He is not, nor ever has been a creative fly-half with the ball.

The bigger problem is why Sexton is so deep when he plays for Ireland and why the 8-9-10 unit does not function.

-1

ROG is and has been a good attacking 10 at times. The thing is, people only see him for his tactical kicking and penalties and as such fail to see just how attacking he was/is. To say that he only is a decent passer and that BOD and D'Arcy did all the work is very unfair on him.

maestegmafia wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Once Wales have played italy the most points will belong to them.

So no need to worry.

Do you really think so biltong?

Italy had a woeful day against Ireland, i honestly cant expect they play that badly against Wales. I expect Wales to win but not by the same margin.

Mind you you also thought Wales couldn't beat Ireland at Lansdown Road.

Maest, again you drag this up. I picked that Ireland would win before the teams were announced because i thought that Wales would be missing a few players but had maintained the whole time that i could not pick who would win. I think that its really time for you to drop this, its getting really old.

I brought it up once after the game.

But your reasoning for predicting Ireland as favourites in that game is pertinent to your current argument that Wales will have a tougher challenge than most of us are predicting.

A welsh team with a large injury list could beat Ireland in Dublin. Ireland thrashes Italy by forty points.

You know you are right Maest. I honestly havent got a clue

Rog is very poor at attacking. He very rarely makes breaks and never breaks tackles. He is very good at setting up those around him, he is an excellent kicker and has incredible courage, composure and will to win. He is not particularly strong in defense though he does put his body on the line.

For me the only arguement for having him in the team ahead of JS is for his goal kicking. Sexton is as good as or better in every other way.

leinsterbaby wrote:Rog is very poor at attacking. He very rarely makes breaks and never breaks tackles. He is very good at setting up those around him, he is an excellent kicker and has incredible courage, composure and will to win. He is not particularly strong in defense though he does put his body on the line.

For me the only arguement for having him in the team ahead of JS is for his goal kicking. Sexton is as good as or better in every other way.

He doesnt have to break tackles to be a good attacking 10, he has to have the awarness and that is what he has in abundance. The setting up of the players around him and getting them into good positions is also an element of attacking nous no?

I did'nt say that he should be in the side ahead of Sexton, i said that i would like to see him and Sexton paired up with Sexton at 12.

eirebilly wrote:ROG is and has been a good attacking 10 at times. The thing is, people only see him for his tactical kicking and penalties and as such fail to see just how attacking he was/is. To say that he only is a decent passer and that BOD and D'Arcy did all the work is very unfair on him.

No I'm not really saying that. What I'm saying is that he is an excellent passer and his job was relatively easy. He got quick ball from Stringer and all he had to do was put the ball out in front of BOD and D'arcy, both of whom had electric pace and able to bamboozle organised defences. Our main threat was the outside arc in the 13 channel.

His other great skill was the kicks out to Horgan so yes he created a lot of tries and scored a few too.

However he has never been a running threat or able to draw defenders, which is what we need now because we don't have the same midfield threat or pace. Sextons varied short passing, running game and quick thinking is much more threatening now .... however he isn't playing this way for Ireland. Hes getting slow ball and standing deep and either kicking the ball away or just shipping it along the line.

When Reddan is there he runs onto the ball and is much more effective.

Whos fault is this? I personally think its Kidneys for the selection and tactics but others blame Sexton. Whatever the reason it needs to be fixed and for me the quickest fix is playing the Leinster 8-9-10 unit of Heaslip, Reddan and Sexton and letting them run the show.

Even going for the Munster trio of Coughlan - Murray - ROG would probably give us more cohesion than we have now.

eirebilly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Once Wales have played italy the most points will belong to them.

So no need to worry.

Do you really think so biltong?

Italy had a woeful day against Ireland, i honestly cant expect they play that badly against Wales. I expect Wales to win but not by the same margin.

Mind you you also thought Wales couldn't beat Ireland at Lansdown Road.

Maest, again you drag this up. I picked that Ireland would win before the teams were announced because i thought that Wales would be missing a few players but had maintained the whole time that i could not pick who would win. I think that its really time for you to drop this, its getting really old.

I brought it up once after the game.

But your reasoning for predicting Ireland as favourites in that game is pertinent to your current argument that Wales will have a tougher challenge than most of us are predicting.

A welsh team with a large injury list could beat Ireland in Dublin. Ireland thrashes Italy by forty points.

You know you are right Maest. I honestly havent got a clue

Now now no need to be sycophantic mate...! You have misjudged the tone in what i wrote above.

rodders, i just dont think that an attacking 10 always has to be about breaking lines and being a running threat thats all. Most people write ROG off as simply being a kicker and tactical kicker but his awareness in getting people to run into gaps is excellent and as you say his attacking kicks to players like Horgan were well above par.

You seem to think that BOD and D'Arcy created all the moves and that ROG just had to ship the ball to them, i simply cant buy that at all.

Bizarre to me that Reddan wasn't selected from the start. Just don't understand that one. No offense to Murray he is a great prospect but Reddan's form has been much better plus both Sexton and Reddan play better when they play together.

I think that Kidney picked Murray because of his physical presence leinster. It paid off big time in the first half against France.

eirebilly wrote:
You seem to think that BOD and D'Arcy created all the moves and that ROG just had to ship the ball to them, i simply cant buy that at all.

Again that isn't what I said exactly. What I am saying that the cirumstances ROG was in a few seasons ago are very different to the circumstances today.

Therefore the skill set required by our no 10 is different... and in my opinion it is a skill set that ROG doesn't have and a skill set that Sexton does, but too often....for whatever reasons..... isn't showing it enough.

roddersm wrote:

eirebilly wrote:There has long been this myth that ROG is only a good tactical kicker but people forget that he was also the 10 at the time (under EOS) when Ireland were one of the most potent attacking teams around.

Billy we had two of the most dangerous centres in world rugby then, flanked by Hickie and Horgan. All O'Gara had to do was ship the ball to D'arcy or BOD and we were away. ROG is a very good passer but thats it really. He is not, nor ever has been a creative fly-half with the ball.

The bigger problem is why Sexton is so deep when he plays for Ireland and why the 8-9-10 unit does not function.

Sorry rodders but that is what i was responding to. Clearly you say that ROG was just a very good passer.

All i am saying is that ROG is alot more attacking minded than some people think and that being an attacking 10 does not always mean breaking the line.

OK Billy I'll give you an example of what I mean... in case you think I am just spouting anti-rog rhetoric... I'm actually not anti rog and think he's been one of the top 3 or 4 fly halves of the past decade....... anyways.....

A few seasons ago when ireland had clean first phase ball or quick ruck ball... Stringer was able to get quick ball to ROG who in turn could use his accurate long passes to get the ball to D'arcy or BOD , who, with even the slightest amount of space could often slip outside their opposite numbers and create or score a try. Yes they were that good.

Now when we try the same, on the rare occaisions we get quick ball, what happens is D'arce and BOD, 9 times out of 10, will cut back in and take contact. They just don't have the same pace.

Therefore we need a fly half who can draw defenders and just create that bit more space for the other players or make breaks himself. Someone who can vary the game up a bit more.

ROG doesn't have this ability but Sexton and hopefully Madigan do.

ROG hater rodders

I am not denying that the game has changed rodders, all i am saying is that ROG should not have been seen purely as a good kicker and passer. In the games at the RWC in which he started, he was excellent and he is also excellent for Muster so he has obviously adapted. He has basically not been given a chance to show that since at international level.