Wales Onwards and Upwards

First topic message reminder :

So Wales win their 3rd Grand Slam in 8 Years and the press go wild comparing them to the team of the 70s. The problem with that perception is that the consistency is not teh same, Wales in the 70s only won 3 grand slams but they won the championship 7 times and shared the title once Wales are not at that level of dominance at the moment.

After 2005 the team fell apart, the players believed their hype and did not kick on and improve. The dire results in 2006-2007 were not simply the fault of Gareth Jenkins although he must bear a lot of the blame. The players were indisciplined and its notable that as soon as a disciplinarian arrived the welsh players performed again. Again after 2008 though the welsh team was unable to move forward. The 2008 side were aging and lacked strength in depth and Wales struggled with injuries in 09-10. The tour to NZ in 2010 was a real watershed for the side. Gatts took a relatively young squad to the SH and whilst they were hammered in the first test the difference in the second was palpable. After that tour Gatts brought in these youngsters and greadually jettisoned the class of 2005/08.

The challenge for Wales is to kick on and challenge the SH and there are a number of positives for us now that we can take forward but we are far from the finished article.

The Forwards are solid and will cause problems against any team in world rugby. Adam Jones the cornerstone of the Welsh front row however still doesnt have anyone at his level to step in if he gets injured. I would like to have seen Mitchell get some gametime against Italy to help his development. We now have four international class locks. I dont think I have been able to say that for 25 years and hopefully the big weakness in the welsh forwards can now be addressed with monsters like Charteris and Evans in tandom at second row. The backrow balance is good and there is enough in this welsh 8 to expect parity in possession against anyone.

The backs are big strong and powerful but in the last three games they have been conservative, closed down by teams more concerned with damage control than by taking the welsh on. The backs need to remember that sometimes avoiding contact is better than bish bash bosh. Too often in the last 3 games they have looked for contact. However all of the welsh tries have been scored by the backline 10 in all and that demonstrates just how potent they can become. Phillips pass is still a weakness and Priestlands tactical game can blow hot and cold. Yesterday it was good in other games this year he has been dire. Its really up to Tovey to challenge Priestland which with his move to the Blues I expect to happen. We still lack creativity in the midfield but yesterday Roberts showed he isnt always one dimensional. In North and Cuthbert we have two wingers who need quick ball in space and they will wreak havoc in any defensive line.

The challenge for this welsh side is to deal with expectation and a tactical approach by the opposition designed to stifle the welsh attack. Against the Australians though we are likely to get a different approach. I cant see Deans sending out a side designed to keep the score down, the Australians will send a side out who will tray and stretch this welsh team. As they have beaten us twice already this season, Maybe France would have been better if they had come at us and tried to run our massive backs around.

All in all there are a lot of positives but lets not get carried away, the team is only at the start of a journey that will take us up to 2015 yet abother grand slam is worthless unless we actually fullfill the potential. I would say a B+ so far for our results and performances, A win against Aus would see us get to an A for results and performance. A series win down under is however what we have to aim for. If we achieve that then I will be a very happy bunny.

A fair compromise would be late summer tests one year (for the SH countries) and then AIs the following year.

Rotation is the key.

Well player fatigues is certainly an issue Wales played 14 internationals in 2011, By the end of 2012 we will have played 12 Internationals. So the burden this year has decreased. There is also the fact annoying though it is that only Cardiff are in the latter stages of the HC and the Ospreys currently the only side in line for a play off place in the Rabo. So over half the squad will have finished competitive rugby on 5th May. The others could go on to teh 26th May butthats the ospreys really as the blues are likely to lose to Leinster. So the burden is actually less than it has been in previous years.

As for the idea we should stop tours to the SH well honestly I think thats a non starter. I would however be in favour of moving teh six nations to the end of the season so we dont have the ridiculous club v country bickering every season and we could have a decent international block of 6Nations followed by a tour rather than all the different comps running concurrently and trying to fit in internationals in Feb-March. Guve the clubs their players from Sept to March and then have an international season till mid/late june.

Pro 12 has 22 games then 24 if you make the semis and final (no quarters). Internationals hardly play in the pro 12 though.

Heineken Cup has 6 pool games then 9 if you make the quarters,semis and final.

Anglo Welsh (LV cup) has 4 pool games then 6 if you make the semis and final.

So (if my maths is correct) all together there is a possibility of your team playing 39 games.

We have rabbo, then a bit of HEC then another week of Rabbo, then AI's then Rabbo then HEC then more Rabbo, then more HEC to decide the pool winners then a week of Rabbo, six nations, Rabbo, then HEC Quarterfinals, then Rabbo then hopefully the semis of the HEC then play offs of the the Rabbo then final of the HEC then an international vs the Baabaa's.

Then a summer tour.

Crazy...!

Should be HEC until Xmas. AIs become Winter Internationals Pre Six nations. Six nations then domestic league. And an end of season tour before you guys kick off the tri nations.


Equivililent to the reverse of the SH season.

Wait, sorry my Pro 12 stats are incorrect. They play 17 regular season games, so 19 if you make the finals.

So thats 34 games?

maestegmafia wrote:We have rabbo, then a bit of HEC then a bother week of Rabbo, then AI's then Rabbo then HEC then more Rabbo, then more HEC to decide the pool winners then a week of Rabbo, six nations, Rabbo, then HEC then Rabbo then hopefully the semis of the HEC then play offs of the the Rabbo then final of the HEC then an international vs the Baabaa's.

Then a summer tour.

Crazy...!

Should be HEC until Xmas. AIs become Winter Internationals Pre Six nations. Six nations then domestic league. And an end of season tour before you guys kick off the tri nations.


Equivil

Personally Maes I would like to see, Domestic comp from Sept to Jan(but still including an AI block, Euro comp from Jan to March, Internationals from April to June but with the development cups like the LV running at the same time to keep the cluns income ticking over.

Two questions why is the NH season looking like a chameleon on a smarty box.

What happened to playing one tournamnet finishing it, and then move on to the next?

Secondly, why so many competitions?

Surely the RABO and then the heineken cup should be sufficient?


What is the LV?

It's a tournament the Welsh regions and teh English prem sides compete in, Biltong.

It's seen more as a development competition really for fringe players and up and coming talent, but I know if an English side wins it, they get qualification for the Heineken.

I think its restructuring of the season that desperatly needs to take place biltong but thats another argument about how we do that. the rabo and HEC if a region were to win both would be 27 matches.

gowales wrote:Wait, sorry my Pro 12 stats are incorrect. They play 17 regular season games, so 19 if you make the finals.

So thats 34 games?

Ignore this. I was looking at the 2011-2012 wiki page

We can't change the HEC unless the English and French clubs wish to as well and there is more chance of hell freezing over. They want to make money nearly all the season over rather than for a four to five month season.

maestegmafia wrote:We can't change the HEC unless the English and French clubs wish to as well and there is more chance of hell freezing over. They want to make money nearly all the season over rather than for a four to five month season.

I think that attitude is changing in England. Financially they will play the same amount of home games so income wont be hit. As for the French, the financial model they have is unsustainable in the long run and it is already haveing a detrimental effect on the natinal team. Look at Stade and how they imploded financially. I think when the French money dries up and a few more of their top clubs look like going to the wall then we may see a change accross the channell as well.

TycroesOsprey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:We can't change the HEC unless the English and French clubs wish to as well and there is more chance of hell freezing over. They want to make money nearly all the season over rather than for a four to five month season.

I think that attitude is changing in England. Financially they will play the same amount of home games so income wont be hit. As for the French, the financial model they have is unsustainable in the long run and it is already haveing a detrimental effect on the natinal team. Look at Stade and how they imploded financially. I think when the French money dries up and a few more of their top clubs look like going to the wall then we may see a change accross the channell as well.

It will go hand in hand with equality in results between NH and SH teams.

So the reason Wales can't beat the SH sides away (or home for that matter) is the fault of England and France? Really?

Ok, so your LV is similar to our vodacom Cup which is really a development tournamnet and our top guys don't play in it.

Our vodacom Cup runs simitaniously with the Super Rugby comp anyway.

Now our Currie cup has been reduced to 6 teams only this year as the Super Xv takes so long., But it is played after the Super rugby tourny.

So we have from middle FEb to June 15 weeks, then it takes a break (so we are now for the first time in the same position where things aren't getting completed) Then the June tours, then week 16 starts until 4 August for the final.

Then we still have to get the currie Cup in which has been shortened.

Hell, this is going to be a mess.

SafeAsMilk wrote:So the reason Wales can't beat the SH sides away (or home for that matter) is the fault of England and France? Really?

Well from a financial model's point of view they are dependant on it, not true?

biltongbek wrote:Ok, so your LV is similar to our vodacom Cup which is really a development tournamnet and our top guys don't play in it.

Our vodacom Cup runs simitaniously with the Super Rugby comp anyway.

Now our Currie cup has been reduced to 6 teams only this year as the Super Xv takes so long., But it is played after the Super rugby tourny.

So we have from middle FEb to June 15 weeks, then it takes a break (so we are now for the first time in the same position where things aren't getting completed) Then the June tours, then week 16 starts until 4 August for the final.

Then we still have to get the currie Cup in which has been shortened.

Hell, this is going to be a mess.

Guess you know how we feel, we are almost envious of your organisational skills with regards to your rugby calendar.

biltongbek wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:So the reason Wales can't beat the SH sides away (or home for that matter) is the fault of England and France? Really?

Well from a financial model's point of view they are dependant on it, not true?

That's not my point. It's just a little tiresome when a certain poster bangs his drum about the 'evil empires' of England and France as an excuse to mask his own country's failings. It's the same when he blames them for player release issues when it's the fault of the WRU for not writing proper release clauses or be willing to stump up the payment.

Just gets a bit after a while

Don't think anyone has actually said we don't beat the SH sides because of England and France, SafeAs, just that those two nations make it difficult to have a chance of restructuring the rugby calander here in the NH. Think you're reading too much into it mate!

I'm not convinced by this 12 month rugby arguement.

Awj and charteris have had long breaks
Priestland had a break
Gethin injured toe and calf
Bradley s had a break
Adam jones has been out

Other than scarlets there's no HK or european rugby

I'd rather the welsh players do well on tour and then miss the start of the domestic season

The regions staying alive financially depends on a strong welsh team!

Ate Warburton and Lydiate have had breaks too.

Phillips had a long layoff last spring.

Faletau is taking the brunt of it. I don't think he has missed a match since his first cap.

Slarti - Blues are in the HC QF's.

Also, what break has Priestland had? He's been playing through injury all season.

Blues are in HK not scarlets!

Scarlets are in the Amlin

I have heard Priestland will be out for an operation ASAP.

Anyone know more?

nope but it wouldn't surprise me.

Think he needs his shoulder and his knees done.

rugbydreamer wrote:Slarti - Blues are in the HC QF's.

Also, what break has Priestland had? He's been playing through injury all season.

If he's injured then rest him.That's different from burnout.

Look most the world cup squad had time off, all the pack other than toby have been rotated for one reason or another.

I'd love to know what the actual players think - when asked you usually get "yeah theres alot of rugby"

What about an anonymous servey?

rugbydreamer wrote:nope but it wouldn't surprise me.

Think he needs his shoulder and his knees done.

I think the rumour I heard was a knee op to come soon.

Scarlets, as you pointed out the other day, have plenty of back up flyhalfs, shouldn't suffer too badly.

Let's hope he is well and on form for when Wales need him most.

biltongbek wrote:Two questions why is the NH season looking like a chameleon on a smarty box.

What happened to playing one tournamnet finishing it, and then move on to the next?

What do you mean?This has never been the way it's been done up here,I doubt it's by design but the rugby season follows the same model as football.

TycroesOsprey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:We can't change the HEC unless the English and French clubs wish to as well and there is more chance of hell freezing over. They want to make money nearly all the season over rather than for a four to five month season.

I think that attitude is changing in England. Financially they will play the same amount of home games so income wont be hit. As for the French, the financial model they have is unsustainable in the long run and it is already haveing a detrimental effect on the natinal team. Look at Stade and how they imploded financially. I think when the French money dries up and a few more of their top clubs look like going to the wall then we may see a change accross the channell as well.

The English and French clubs are much less dependant on the money from the HEC than Magners Unions are.
The french in particular often only pay a passing interest to it.

As for the LV its very much the Welsh and low tier Jeff sides who stand in the way of that becoming a true development cup.

In england there is a gradual slide towards the collapse of the PRL as we know it and a reduced to tier.

Meanwhile people in Wales and Scotland keep banging on about adding extra regions, which means even more Magners games ( didnt they just add playoffs and Italians recently...)

Dont try and cast England and France as the reason for "too much rugby"

No one is...?