THE ETHICS OF GOLF

Found this today, sorry if already posted ....

THE ETHICS OF GOLF

What if you were playing in the club championship tournament finals and the match was halved at the end of 17 holes. You had the honour and hit your ball a modest two hundred fifty yards to the middle of the fairway, leaving a simple six iron to the pin.

Your opponent then hits his ball, lofting it deep into the woods to the right of the fairway.

Being the golfing gentleman that you are, you help your opponent look for his ball. Just before the permitted five minute search period ends, your opponent says "Go ahead and hit your second shot and if I don't find it in time, I'll concede the match".

You hit your ball, landing it on the green, stopping about ten feet from the pin.

About the time your ball comes to rest, you hear your opponent exclaim from deep in the woods "I found It!" The second sound you hear is a click, the sound of a club striking a ball and the ball comes sailing out of the woods and lands on the green, stopping no more than six inches from the hole.

Now here is the ethical dilemma:

Do you pull the cheating Bar Steward's ball out of your pocket and confront him with it or do you keep your mouth shut?

If he cheated it would be his loss and not yours. There is nothing you can do but accept his word for it. It is just a game after all.

You're stuffed. Are you saying you pocketed his ball leaving him unable to find it???

Er guys, I think this is a bit of "whimsy" not a serious question.

Hibbz wrote:Er guys, I think this is a bit of "whimsy" not a serious question.

+1

Read the last line again guys. It's not a serious question.

If it was a serious question, don't even think about hitting your second shot until either his ball has been found, or he declares it lost. If he finds it, then determine who is to hit next. If he doesn't find it, then he has to either concede or go back to the tee and reload.

Either way, the ball is not in your court. Wait until he decides.

Thanks George, tis was a whimsy bit of fun.
But I appreciate your response.
Cheers,
Dave

OK. So it's whimsy. It still doesn't make any sense . In this hypothetical situation they're both bar stewards. The 'winner' get's away with it as the other guy is too badly compromised.

I have never put an opponents ball in my pocket but I am sure I am not the only one to "accidently" stand on a ball when finding it for an opponent. I sometimes think people know you have done this but it is too much of a taboo to accuse someone cheating.

Being in the middle of the fairway, match tied, and your opponent in the woods, I would not find it necessary to cheat. Had I been one down, and my opponent been an a-hole throughout the match, I would be more inclined to cheat. (Can't say that I would though, and for your record, never have.)

McLaren wrote:I have never put an opponents ball in my pocket but I am sure I am not the only one to "accidently" stand on a ball when finding it for an opponent. I sometimes think people know you have done this but it is too much of a taboo to accuse someone cheating.

That's appalling.

George1507 wrote:

McLaren wrote:I have never put an opponents ball in my pocket but I am sure I am not the only one to "accidently" stand on a ball when finding it for an opponent. I sometimes think people know you have done this but it is too much of a taboo to accuse someone cheating.

That's appalling.

George totally agree.

Mac: why on earth would you even do that, or feel the need to?

McLaren wrote:I have never put an opponents ball in my pocket but I am sure I am not the only one to "accidently" stand on a ball when finding it for an opponent. I sometimes think people know you have done this but it is too much of a taboo to accuse someone cheating.

Thats poor. Dont see the need in doing that, if you have to resort to that to beat your opponent whats the point?

Well it depends if you're playing a medal, or for fun with your mates. For he latter, improving ones own lie is understandable and I have occasinally done it. Even with my partners/opponents approval. For me it's all about having fun.

But making it harder for your opponent is a bit poor, no matter the circumstances.

"Mac: why on earth would you even do that, or feel the need to?"


To win. As a fan of tiger I feel the need to win at all costs. Even spitting to upset my opponent.

McLaren wrote:
I have never put an opponents ball in my pocket but I am sure I am not the only one to "accidently" stand on a ball when finding it for an opponent. I sometimes think people know you have done this but it is too much of a taboo to accuse someone cheating.

3 fish hooked and reeled in, nice one Mac.

SpacemanSpiff wrote:McLaren wrote:
I have never put an opponents ball in my pocket but I am sure I am not the only one to "accidently" stand on a ball when finding it for an opponent. I sometimes think people know you have done this but it is too much of a taboo to accuse someone cheating.

3 fish hooked and reeled in, nice one Mac.

No. This is not humour or a WUM. If that's the intention it doesn't come across.

pedro wrote:Well it depends if you're playing a medal, or for fun with your mates. For he latter, improving ones own lie is understandable and I have occasinally done it. Even with my partners/opponents approval. For me it's all about having fun.

No, it isn't 'understandable'. We get 'pick and place' through the green in the Winter anyway - isn't that enough? If you're out for a practice on your own I can perhaps see the point; otherwise all I see is people playing something that isn't golf.

I have no doubt people want to play golf but some courses, carts, modern balls, DMD's, long putters etc provide far too many obstacles to this.

I am not sure what to call the game most of us play but it is not golf.

For those of you who play a game that is no more than an imposter to the game of golf I ask you do not judge me for stepping on a ball. After all, we have all committed much worse by not keeping to the traditions and playing of the real game of golf.

Mac, you are a broken record. Every sport undergoes changes and progress. Golf is no different.

F1 is not the same as it was in 1960, but it's still F1.

There is no such thing as "real" golf, only your bastardised and antiquated view of what you think it should be.

McLaren wrote:I have no doubt people want to play golf but some courses, carts, modern balls, DMD's, long putters etc provide far too many obstacles to this.

I am not sure what to call the game most of us play but it is not golf.

For those of you who play a game that is no more than an imposter to the game of golf I ask you do not judge me for stepping on a ball. After all, we have all committed much worse by not keeping to the traditions and playing of the real game of golf.

Piffle. If you want to use hickory-shafted clubs etc, by all means do so. It's not however against the Rules as I understand it. Deliberately stepping on an opponents ball with the intention of hiding it etc is probably specifically against the Rules and, even if it's not, is pretty contemptible. Improving one's lie is also specifically legislated against in most cases. Your comparison is a bit flawed methinks.

I seem to remember seeing this somewhere else before it was posted here...hmmm

[quote="McLaren"]I have never put an opponents ball in my pocket but I am sure I am not the only one to "accidently" stand on a ball when finding it for an opponent. quote]

An effective match play tactic Mac, personally I'm more of a "rattle the change in my pocket during an opponents backswing" kinda guy.

I think the image of golf as a gentleman's game where players call penalties on themselves is becoming outdated. Sometimes in the competitive cauldron of a sunday stableford we do what we must to win.

McLaren wrote:

For those of you who play a game that is no more than an imposter to the game of golf I ask you do not judge me for stepping on a ball. After all, we have all committed much worse by not keeping to the traditions and playing of the real game of golf.

What a load of crap! What your doing and being judged on is cheating. As for real golf its evolved to where it is today.

Fader

If you think using modern equipment on soft courses involves even half the skills the game used to test then you have a lot to learn.

Mac, without putting too fine a point on it, you are absolutely full of scheisse.

You don't know how anyone plays the game, so how can you possibly comment on whether they have half the skills, sounds like Fader has a lot more than you and a better level of knowledge too.

Super

I did not say those playing the game had half the skills that people of old had, but rather the game does not test half the skills it used to. For example DMD's (and I include yardage markers and yardages on scorecards) have removed the need to judge distance with the eye.

Rubbish, there's as much skill in judging a throw it high stop it quick shot as there is in scuttling an 8 iron along the ground.

As for DMD's, the skill is not in knowing how far it is, but being able to consistently hit your clubs the required yardages. Weather, slope, inclination, temperature, wind etc, lie, still play a massive part

Grow up and stop living in the past. I guarantee someone like Mickelson has easily as much skill (and the need to use them) as someone from the days you hark back to.

Somebody please tell me this thread is full of people being ironic.

If the numbers on here professing to cheating are close to reality, I'd better stop competing straight away, because I'm never going to win anything again.

I won a match in the Amateur Championship years ago because the guy I played against hit the lip of a bunker and the ball came backwards. He reckoned it brushed his trousers, nobody else thought it did. He called the penalty on himself, and lost the match right there.

Pretty clear that's not going to happen any more.

Remember Goldfinger....walk up to his ball on the green, lift it to concede, look at the ball (he'd have to be very astute and calculating to have used the same number and same marking) and say..." I say old chap weren't you playing a Titleist n? this is a Titleist m, and a different marking...looks like you played the wrong ball. So that's the hole...and the match to me, unlucky but well played!!" ...and watch out for Oddjob's hat!!


He has no answer because he KNOWS he played the wrong ball. If he insists, give him it but stare at him with the "I know what you did you barsteward" look. He'll never rest easy with it. Then tell him a couple of months later exactly what happened, he'll feel like a complete cheating naughty naughty boy....unfortunately he'll also view you the same way....Great dilemma though!!

George1507 wrote:Somebody please tell me this thread is full of people being ironic.

If the numbers on here professing to cheating are close to reality, I'd better stop competing straight away, because I'm never going to win anything again.

I won a match in the Amateur Championship years ago because the guy I played against hit the lip of a bunker and the ball came backwards. He reckoned it brushed his trousers, nobody else thought it did. He called the penalty on himself, and lost the match right there.

Pretty clear that's not going to happen any more.

Actually George, I called a penalty on myself in one of the medal rounds at the Tassie last year at Carnoustie...marked my ball ever so slightly (debateably) off the green. I noticed when I went to put the ball down to play my shot and just blurted out "och FFS!!" as I put the ball back down, holed the putt but walking off the green the player marking said "3?" I said No, I marked off the green didn't I? "Did you?" he said. None of the other 2 had noticed. We went back to where I had putted from and neither of us were sure. It just wouldn't have sat comfortably with me, even though I wasn't completely clear that I had actually committed a penalty. As it turned out I missed getting into the scratch matchplay at the Tassie on countback and had to settle for the handicap matchplay.

Call me stupid but there are so many occassions that I have called penalties on myself I cannot recall the instances. Ball moving when removing loose impediments, ball moving after grounding club, ball rebounding off tree and hitting me etc. None of these have been witnessed by others. There is so much scope for cheating in golf because so much of it is played unobserved. Surely, the game relies on such honesty?

Mac- are you taking the p*ss on this thread? outrageous if you arent!

So what I cheat when playing golf, but not calling a ball that moves a little is nothing compared to those who cheat by using modern technology. If I were actually playing golf i would never cheat.

Mac, get over it, modern technology has enhanced the enjoyment of golf for millions and i dont just mean titanium drivers and DMDs. E.g you can now stay relatively dry in the rain and swing relatively unobstructed due to the development of Goretex, we can play on greens that are fast and true due to the development of greenkeeping technology and equipment. You can't pick and choose parts of modern technology and frown on others. Would you rather play with hickory shafted mashies in an unkempt field in your tweeds??

Jas

"Would you rather play with hickory shafted mashies in an unkempt field in your tweeds??"

I think you know the answer to that.


PS

Need to remember to respond to your PM from a week or so back.

Mac is fishing for a reaction. He doesn't really believe what he's saying, if so he wouldn't be such a glory hunter of Woods, the epitome of modern golf and effectively everything he proclaims not to like about the game.

I really do think a 3ball with you 2 would be one of the funniest most banterous rounds of golf it's possible to have

I'm sure you all know that the Rules of Golf permit, in match play, a ball to be replaced without penalty if moved by your opponent (or his caddie)during a search and, in stroke play, if moved by a fellow competitor or his caddie.
My question, having seen your opponent stand on your ball do you hit him with your wedge or wood and then invoke the replace rule or invoke the rule first then hit him.

Super

The concept is simple. With every stroke made using modern equipment you are cheating. Why worry about calling one penalty when a ball brushes your trousers?

McLaren wrote:So what I cheat when playing golf, but not calling a ball that moves a little is nothing compared to those who cheat by using modern technology. If I were actually playing golf i would never cheat.

You say quite a bit I disagree with Mac but, in general, that's all part of the rich tapestry that's this forum. This statement though is complete bollards and, if you actually believe what you're saying, you're more of a plum than I thought was possible.

Mac, I know you are just being a WUM, but if that was the case then every footballer, F1 Driver, Tennis player, Cyclist, Runner, Shooter, Skier etc are also cheating.

McLaren wrote:Super

The concept is simple. With every stroke made using modern equipment you are cheating. Why worry about calling one penalty when a ball brushes your trousers?

No, it's you that's obviously simple. Modern kit is legal by the Rules of Golf. Why worry about a penalty for the ball brushing your trousers? Could it be because that's defined as illegal in the same Rules? By your reckoning, everything that's followed since the very first incarnation of what is now called golf is cheating. Let me know when you have something sensible to say and I'll be happy to start taking you seriously again.

Navy, Did you Mac plays golf with a stone and a shepherds crook. Makes medal play a bit hard though.

Steps on the first tee and explains to his partner that he is playing a Lower Devonian Andesite stone ball.

super_realist wrote:Navy, Did you Mac plays golf with a stone and a shepherds crook. Makes medal play a bit hard though.

Steps on the first tee and explains to his partner that he is playing a Lower Devonian Andesite stone ball.

Does have some advantages though; doesn't have to draw some silly logo on the ball to make sure the one he spots in the rough is actually his....

Navy

The rules of golf as defined by the r and a are not necessarily reflective of the values of true golf. You are thinking of R & A golf which is not golf.

So why are the values of golf (which seem to be defined by you , and you only) different from any other sport.

In fact, why don't you tell us exactly how golf ought to be played, and with what.

so Mac you wouldnt be standing on your opponents ball if you had a hickory club in your hand?

It should be played in a way which pits the players mind and body against the natural features of the course in the most enjoyable way possible. It seems clear to me that the most enjoyable way is the one in which the player is presented with the most interesting problems to solve. The more the mind has to work the better the playing of the game becomes.

We do not need technology 100 years old to achieve this, only a sensible approach to how the development of the technology effects how the game is played. There will have been a point where the interest of the game was maximised and where the technology used meant as many people as possible could enjoy the game. You have to think this balance was long before adjustable drivers, very long ball, DMD’s, long putter, 460cc heads, massive cor’s etc

The technology has increasingly removed the player from the land over which he is playing the game, which given the importance and interest the land holds seems and odd way to go about development. This will sound very hippy indeed; but you really ought to feel at one with your surroundings while playing the game.

Mac, I think I and everyone else thinks you are retarded.

Do you think every other sport is the same. SHould F1 run to the cars and be protected by only a scarf?

I think that Mac has seen The Legend of Bagger Vance too many tmes