The English are coming!

wickedwasp wrote:Triangulation

Wow - you're just noy a glass half full kind of person at all are you?

Some of that actually has some truth in it. I agree our skill levels are way behing the SH & also agree with the bash bash & attrition comments.

However, none of that is new and, arguably isn't our biggest problem.

In 2003, our skill levels were no better than now, but we had a totally committed, united team with a great ethos, excellent defence and a belief that they could win. They ended up doing alright.

I think if we try to become NZ, SA or Aus, we'll only end up as a slightly inferior copy.

Let's develop our strengths & take it from there
.

WE are going to take some hammerings along the way, but that's all part of the learning curve.

Keep the faith

Triangulation wrote:England are in a new cycle

We're in a rare period of optimism.

Deep down in places that we do not talk about at dinner parties we know that it won't last so here's an accelerated version of the reality we face : England are doomed.

As much as Lancaster and his support coaches are excellent - ulitmately they have poor cattle to work with. Cattle who when expertly herded were enough to give good account of themselves at 6N level but who will be found out in the coming Test matches. Even our vaunted defecence and particularly discipline in defence will crumble. Penalty counts will soar. Yellow cards will fly.

We're only as good as what our rubbish Aviva premiership produces. Not good enough : players who cannot execute basic draw and pass skills and no depth at prop, hooker, number 8, openside?, scrum half, or centre.

Club coaches up and down the country should, for their gross dereliction of duty be marched through the streets of every market town and city so that we can throw rotten tomatos at them.

On and off field discipline remains as rubbish as ever with players falling over themselves to be cited for months on end or arrested, hamstringing our meagre 1st 22 playing resources.

The bash bash dull style of the premiership causes a masive injury attrition rate which will hurt our selections.

We cannot logically expect to win a bean between now and the next 6N.

The Lancaster goodwill will quickly evaporate in the Republic of South Africa. Nick Mallet will be very smug. It will be awfull.

We will lose our way through the slide to 8th in the IRB rankings and be seeded at out own RWC with the All Blacks.

We and the RFU will hold our collective nerve until 6-12months out from the RWC when Lancaster will be sacked with Sir Clive Woodward parachuted in at the last minute.

He will immediately select Banahan and Worsley and we will get bombed out in the group stages.

The cycle will then repeat.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:England are in a new cycle

We're in a rare period of optimism.

Deep down in places that we do not talk about at dinner parties we know that it won't last so here's an accelerated version of the reality we face : England are doomed.

As much as Lancaster and his support coaches are excellent - ulitmately they have poor cattle to work with. Cattle who when expertly herded were enough to give good account of themselves at 6N level but who will be found out in the coming Test matches. Even our vaunted defecence and particularly discipline in defence will crumble. Penalty counts will soar. Yellow cards will fly.

We're only as good as what our rubbish Aviva premiership produces. Not good enough : players who cannot execute basic draw and pass skills and no depth at prop, hooker, number 8, openside?, scrum half, or centre.

Club coaches up and down the country should, for their gross dereliction of duty be marched through the streets of every market town and city so that we can throw rotten tomatos at them.

On and off field discipline remains as rubbish as ever with players falling over themselves to be cited for months on end or arrested, hamstringing our meagre 1st 22 playing resources.

The bash bash dull style of the premiership causes a masive injury attrition rate which will hurt our selections.

We cannot logically expect to win a bean between now and the next 6N.

The Lancaster goodwill will quickly evaporate in the Republic of South Africa. Nick Mallet will be very smug. It will be awfull.

We will lose our way through the slide to 8th in the IRB rankings and be seeded at out own RWC with the All Blacks.

We and the RFU will hold our collective nerve until 6-12months out from the RWC when Lancaster will be sacked with Sir Clive Woodward parachuted in at the last minute.

He will immediately select Banahan and Worsley and we will get bombed out in the group stages.

The cycle will then repeat.

Whilst we do not have the most skilled players, I think this is untrue- We actually at the moment have plenty of depth (untested at International level but certainly talented) at Prop and Centre, we have at least 2 excellent Scrum halves, just one is a moron and the other needs to find some form. We have a lot of young aspiring Hookers that need blooding. We have some real 7s one of whom will hopefully be ready in the next 12 months, and there is some discussion over whether a "real 7" is even necessary at any level of rugby now days. Number 8 is a little lacking but I'd argue it is at International level for pretty much every country in the world at the moment. We have some very skilled backs players that just need to be picked. At 13 alone we now have Tuilagi, Trinder, JJ, Lowe, Hopper, Tait, Daly etc. None of whom are perfect but none are the pit of talentlessness you seem to imply, and all of whom I'd rather spend a starting spot on than the likes of Fofana

Triangulation wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:England are in a new cycle

We're in a rare period of optimism.

Deep down in places that we do not talk about at dinner parties we know that it won't last so here's an accelerated version of the reality we face : England are doomed.

As much as Lancaster and his support coaches are excellent - ulitmately they have poor cattle to work with. Cattle who when expertly herded were enough to give good account of themselves at 6N level but who will be found out in the coming Test matches. Even our vaunted defecence and particularly discipline in defence will crumble. Penalty counts will soar. Yellow cards will fly.

We're only as good as what our rubbish Aviva premiership produces. Not good enough : players who cannot execute basic draw and pass skills and no depth at prop, hooker, number 8, openside?, scrum half, or centre.

Club coaches up and down the country should, for their gross dereliction of duty be marched through the streets of every market town and city so that we can throw rotten tomatos at them.

On and off field discipline remains as rubbish as ever with players falling over themselves to be cited for months on end or arrested, hamstringing our meagre 1st 22 playing resources.

The bash bash dull style of the premiership causes a masive injury attrition rate which will hurt our selections.

We cannot logically expect to win a bean between now and the next 6N.

The Lancaster goodwill will quickly evaporate in the Republic of South Africa. Nick Mallet will be very smug. It will be awfull.

We will lose our way through the slide to 8th in the IRB rankings and be seeded at out own RWC with the All Blacks.

We and the RFU will hold our collective nerve until 6-12months out from the RWC when Lancaster will be sacked with Sir Clive Woodward parachuted in at the last minute.

He will immediately select Banahan and Worsley and we will get bombed out in the group stages.

The cycle will then repeat.

Whilst we do not have the most skilled players, I think this is untrue- We actually at the moment have plenty of depth (untested at International level but certainly talented) at Prop and Centre, we have at least 2 excellent Scrum halves, just one is a moron and the other needs to find some form. We have a lot of young aspiring Hookers that need blooding. We have some real 7s one of whom will hopefully be ready in the next 12 months, and there is some discussion over whether a "real 7" is even necessary at any level of rugby now days. Number 8 is a little lacking but I'd argue it is at International level for pretty much every country in the world at the moment. We have some very skilled backs players that just need to be picked. At 13 alone we now have Tuilagi, Trinder, JJ, Lowe, Hopper, Tait, Daly etc. None of whom are perfect but none are the pit of talentlessness you seem to imply, and all of whom I'd rather spend a starting spot on than the likes of Fofana

So you're looking ahead to 2019 RWC then?

There are 37 test matches only until the next RWC and history dictates that you need at least 40 caps a man average to win the damn thing.

Perhaps we'd be better off writing the next RWC off and working on more pressing structural and cultural issues instead of going around and around in this washing machine of despair.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:England are in a new cycle

We're in a rare period of optimism.

Deep down in places that we do not talk about at dinner parties we know that it won't last so here's an accelerated version of the reality we face : England are doomed.

As much as Lancaster and his support coaches are excellent - ulitmately they have poor cattle to work with. Cattle who when expertly herded were enough to give good account of themselves at 6N level but who will be found out in the coming Test matches. Even our vaunted defecence and particularly discipline in defence will crumble. Penalty counts will soar. Yellow cards will fly.

We're only as good as what our rubbish Aviva premiership produces. Not good enough : players who cannot execute basic draw and pass skills and no depth at prop, hooker, number 8, openside?, scrum half, or centre.

Club coaches up and down the country should, for their gross dereliction of duty be marched through the streets of every market town and city so that we can throw rotten tomatos at them.

On and off field discipline remains as rubbish as ever with players falling over themselves to be cited for months on end or arrested, hamstringing our meagre 1st 22 playing resources.

The bash bash dull style of the premiership causes a masive injury attrition rate which will hurt our selections.

We cannot logically expect to win a bean between now and the next 6N.

The Lancaster goodwill will quickly evaporate in the Republic of South Africa. Nick Mallet will be very smug. It will be awfull.

We will lose our way through the slide to 8th in the IRB rankings and be seeded at out own RWC with the All Blacks.

We and the RFU will hold our collective nerve until 6-12months out from the RWC when Lancaster will be sacked with Sir Clive Woodward parachuted in at the last minute.

He will immediately select Banahan and Worsley and we will get bombed out in the group stages.

The cycle will then repeat.

Whilst we do not have the most skilled players, I think this is untrue- We actually at the moment have plenty of depth (untested at International level but certainly talented) at Prop and Centre, we have at least 2 excellent Scrum halves, just one is a moron and the other needs to find some form. We have a lot of young aspiring Hookers that need blooding. We have some real 7s one of whom will hopefully be ready in the next 12 months, and there is some discussion over whether a "real 7" is even necessary at any level of rugby now days. Number 8 is a little lacking but I'd argue it is at International level for pretty much every country in the world at the moment. We have some very skilled backs players that just need to be picked. At 13 alone we now have Tuilagi, Trinder, JJ, Lowe, Hopper, Tait, Daly etc. None of whom are perfect but none are the pit of talentlessness you seem to imply, and all of whom I'd rather spend a starting spot on than the likes of Fofana

So you're looking ahead to 2019 RWC then?

There are 37 test matches only until the next RWC and history dictates that you need at least 40 caps a man average to win the damn thing.

Perhaps we'd be better off writing the next RWC off and working on more pressing structural and cultural issues instead of going around and around in this washing machine of despair.

How about we just man up, get on with it and become the youngest World Cup Winning Team in History? Seems that whilst we should make a series of club and grass-root level changes, bitching about the (lack of) players we have available now isn't going to help anyone is it? It's not even the slightest bit constructive

Triangulation wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:England are in a new cycle

We're in a rare period of optimism.

Deep down in places that we do not talk about at dinner parties we know that it won't last so here's an accelerated version of the reality we face : England are doomed.

As much as Lancaster and his support coaches are excellent - ulitmately they have poor cattle to work with. Cattle who when expertly herded were enough to give good account of themselves at 6N level but who will be found out in the coming Test matches. Even our vaunted defecence and particularly discipline in defence will crumble. Penalty counts will soar. Yellow cards will fly.

We're only as good as what our rubbish Aviva premiership produces. Not good enough : players who cannot execute basic draw and pass skills and no depth at prop, hooker, number 8, openside?, scrum half, or centre.

Club coaches up and down the country should, for their gross dereliction of duty be marched through the streets of every market town and city so that we can throw rotten tomatos at them.

On and off field discipline remains as rubbish as ever with players falling over themselves to be cited for months on end or arrested, hamstringing our meagre 1st 22 playing resources.

The bash bash dull style of the premiership causes a masive injury attrition rate which will hurt our selections.

We cannot logically expect to win a bean between now and the next 6N.

The Lancaster goodwill will quickly evaporate in the Republic of South Africa. Nick Mallet will be very smug. It will be awfull.

We will lose our way through the slide to 8th in the IRB rankings and be seeded at out own RWC with the All Blacks.

We and the RFU will hold our collective nerve until 6-12months out from the RWC when Lancaster will be sacked with Sir Clive Woodward parachuted in at the last minute.

He will immediately select Banahan and Worsley and we will get bombed out in the group stages.

The cycle will then repeat.

Whilst we do not have the most skilled players, I think this is untrue- We actually at the moment have plenty of depth (untested at International level but certainly talented) at Prop and Centre, we have at least 2 excellent Scrum halves, just one is a moron and the other needs to find some form. We have a lot of young aspiring Hookers that need blooding. We have some real 7s one of whom will hopefully be ready in the next 12 months, and there is some discussion over whether a "real 7" is even necessary at any level of rugby now days. Number 8 is a little lacking but I'd argue it is at International level for pretty much every country in the world at the moment. We have some very skilled backs players that just need to be picked. At 13 alone we now have Tuilagi, Trinder, JJ, Lowe, Hopper, Tait, Daly etc. None of whom are perfect but none are the pit of talentlessness you seem to imply, and all of whom I'd rather spend a starting spot on than the likes of Fofana

So you're looking ahead to 2019 RWC then?

There are 37 test matches only until the next RWC and history dictates that you need at least 40 caps a man average to win the damn thing.

Perhaps we'd be better off writing the next RWC off and working on more pressing structural and cultural issues instead of going around and around in this washing machine of despair.

How about we just man up, get on with it and become the youngest World Cup Winning Team in History? Seems that whilst we should make a series of club and grass-root level changes, bitching about the (lack of) players we have available now isn't going to help anyone is it? It's not even the slightest bit constructive

Fair enough IF changes are made i willl stop being a girl and stop biatching. Until that happens I and others will probably continue.

We do have a good 1st XV when all fit and on board. With the bounce of the ball we could beat Australia in a RWC and we can beat France and Ireland on our day too so all's not lost. We have excellent honest coaches and there shouldnt be any more of the nonsense we saw off the field at last RWC.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:England are in a new cycle

We're in a rare period of optimism.

Deep down in places that we do not talk about at dinner parties we know that it won't last so here's an accelerated version of the reality we face : England are doomed.

As much as Lancaster and his support coaches are excellent - ulitmately they have poor cattle to work with. Cattle who when expertly herded were enough to give good account of themselves at 6N level but who will be found out in the coming Test matches. Even our vaunted defecence and particularly discipline in defence will crumble. Penalty counts will soar. Yellow cards will fly.

We're only as good as what our rubbish Aviva premiership produces. Not good enough : players who cannot execute basic draw and pass skills and no depth at prop, hooker, number 8, openside?, scrum half, or centre.

Club coaches up and down the country should, for their gross dereliction of duty be marched through the streets of every market town and city so that we can throw rotten tomatos at them.

On and off field discipline remains as rubbish as ever with players falling over themselves to be cited for months on end or arrested, hamstringing our meagre 1st 22 playing resources.

The bash bash dull style of the premiership causes a masive injury attrition rate which will hurt our selections.

We cannot logically expect to win a bean between now and the next 6N.

The Lancaster goodwill will quickly evaporate in the Republic of South Africa. Nick Mallet will be very smug. It will be awfull.

We will lose our way through the slide to 8th in the IRB rankings and be seeded at out own RWC with the All Blacks.

We and the RFU will hold our collective nerve until 6-12months out from the RWC when Lancaster will be sacked with Sir Clive Woodward parachuted in at the last minute.

He will immediately select Banahan and Worsley and we will get bombed out in the group stages.

The cycle will then repeat.

Whilst we do not have the most skilled players, I think this is untrue- We actually at the moment have plenty of depth (untested at International level but certainly talented) at Prop and Centre, we have at least 2 excellent Scrum halves, just one is a moron and the other needs to find some form. We have a lot of young aspiring Hookers that need blooding. We have some real 7s one of whom will hopefully be ready in the next 12 months, and there is some discussion over whether a "real 7" is even necessary at any level of rugby now days. Number 8 is a little lacking but I'd argue it is at International level for pretty much every country in the world at the moment. We have some very skilled backs players that just need to be picked. At 13 alone we now have Tuilagi, Trinder, JJ, Lowe, Hopper, Tait, Daly etc. None of whom are perfect but none are the pit of talentlessness you seem to imply, and all of whom I'd rather spend a starting spot on than the likes of Fofana

So you're looking ahead to 2019 RWC then?

There are 37 test matches only until the next RWC and history dictates that you need at least 40 caps a man average to win the damn thing.

Perhaps we'd be better off writing the next RWC off and working on more pressing structural and cultural issues instead of going around and around in this washing machine of despair.

How about we just man up, get on with it and become the youngest World Cup Winning Team in History? Seems that whilst we should make a series of club and grass-root level changes, bitching about the (lack of) players we have available now isn't going to help anyone is it? It's not even the slightest bit constructive

Fair enough IF changes are made i willl stop being a girl and stop biatching. Until that happens I and others will probably continue.

We do have a good 1st XV when all fit and on board. With the bounce of the ball we could beat Australia in a RWC and we can beat France and Ireland on our day too so all's not lost. We have excellent honest coaches and there shouldnt be any more of the nonsense we saw off the field at last RWC.

Also, I am sorry, I may have come on a little strong, but if our current players are flawed (which they are) then the changes we make to infrastructure won't help us to win RWC 2015 anyway but good strategy about how we utilise their strengths might. I utterly agree that changes need to be made but we also need to work with what we have in the present

slartibartfast wrote:Lancaster the new messiah for turning round an England RWC disaster to coming second in 6N

Gatland turnaround a welsh RWC disaster and wins a grandslam.

Funny Old world