The English are coming!

First topic message reminder :

I'll apologise in advance for this post, but as the RFU has inexplicably failed to b*lls up the selection of the England Manager, I find myself massively (and probably largely prematurely) optimistic for the future of this England Team.

No superstars, just a fantastic ethos & wor k ethic, all about hard graft & playing for the team - what a foundation to build on. So, fair warning:

Watch out World, here comes England

By the way, there is no hidden point to this post, I'm just really chuffed

Yeah SA has a new coach, did he plan his assault on England before he got appointed and thus convinced SARU to give him the job?

From RSA pespective, and looking at the IRB tables, England are the threat, Aus are the opportunity.

gregortree wrote:Which England ? no-one has fully figured them out yet; not Lancaster, not me, not the Irish and French, and Dragon, not you. Promising future, but way too soon to have 'figured out' this v young team.

Too soon!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you seriously telling me you don't know exactly how England are going to play? Well you are pretty much all on your own there.

But hey at least you are waiting with baited breath before kick off, must make it exciting if ultimately leaving with the feeling that you have seen it all before

No question there is a lot of room for improvement which has to be a positive. You are about to find out whether Lancaster is the man to unleash the beast. My feeling that having got the job, which was the object of the exercise he needs to shake it up again. Try Burns and some of the young talented centres and you may yet become a proper handful. Clearly I hope that doesn't happen but we are going to improve and so must you guys

biltongbek wrote:Yeah SA has a new coach, did he plan his assault on England before he got appointed and thus convinced SARU to give him the job?

As I said it won't have taken him long

dragonbreath wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Yeah SA has a new coach, did he plan his assault on England before he got appointed and thus convinced SARU to give him the job?

As I said it won't have taken him long

Oh my, you really don't need much encouragement, do you?

Mmmm...........................

Methinks he doth protest too much.

Face it, there's not much between England & Wales at the moment. Wales hardly played exciting rugby this 6N.

Let's wait and see, shall we.

Mind you, on their day, Wales...............................

It is called denial Wicked, I suspect the relief of winning a grandslam soon turns to giddy illusions of grandeur.

Biltong



2005, 2008, 2011 - best team in the world............................

wickedwasp wrote:Biltong



2005, 2008, 2011 - best team in the world............................

And then the bubble burst.


To be serious for a moment, I don't mind pride in one's team, even a little spicy and over the top celebration. But to then have a dig at other teams becuase they lost is distasteful and disrespectful.

Totally with you on that.

biltongbek wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

wickedwasp wrote:I'll apologise in advance for this post, but as the RFU has inexplicably failed to b*lls up the selection of the England Manager, I find myself massively (and probably largely prematurely) optimistic for the future of this England Team.

No superstars, just a fantastic ethos & wor k ethic, all about hard graft & playing for the team - what a foundation to build on. So, fair warning:

Watch out World, here comes England

By the way, there is no hidden point to this post, I'm just really chuffed

So is everyone else . Nothing to fear from England for the forseeable future. Everyone knows what they bring and it isn't hard to counter. Harsh but true.

Not only harsh but an exceedingly unjustified view. If they cannot be countered how did they end up beating france, Ireland and Scotland?

And the poster seems to have forgotten what the actual Eng-Wales game played out like (despite the result) hmmm

I am very happy that Lancaster got the job- He couldnt do much more than he did, not only did he win a few games, he also got us fans becoming proud of our team, our players looked proud to put on the shirt, and bar some right retarded wums most opposition fans respect what we have done in the short space of time.


Go Lancaster

biltongbek wrote:It is called denial Wicked, I suspect the relief of winning a grandslam soon turns to giddy illusions of grandeur.

So Wales win the Slam without playing particularly well and are subjected to "illusions of grandeur" - England on the other hand scramble a deserved runners up spot after losing at home to Wales and they are "ready to take on the world"

Some things just never change

And by the way, its delusions not illusions

CJ, you must finish your best ever Xv, I want to do my SA best ever Xv, but only want to do it when your results are in.

RubyGuby wrote:

biltongbek wrote:It is called denial Wicked, I suspect the relief of winning a grandslam soon turns to giddy illusions of grandeur.

So Wales win the Slam without playing particularly well and are subjected to "illusions of grandeur" - England on the other hand scramble a deserved runners up spot after losing at home to Wales and they are "ready to take on the world"

Some things just never change

And by the way, its delusions not illusions

No Ruby, not all, only some. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Loving it! For the first time in ages, I feel reallygood about England's prospects!

Unfortunately, hard as it is to believe I do have SOME work to do off this site! I will try and get THs done tomorrow

Then put in a few days compassionate leave or something, tell you have a crisi that needs sorting.

biltongbek wrote:Fine then, if you guys want to get serious then let's get serious.

The biggest challenge for England will be their defence. Over the last 7 matches they have conceded 26 tries and only once in the final of 2007 left us tryless.

The other issue for them is they have only scored 5 tries themselves in those seven matches.

So they will most certainly have to do something about the slow ruck ball they are currently gaining. In that situation I would siggest a mobile pack would likely be more usefull than one that can scrummage like a monster, but are slow in general game play.

There are only 10 - 20 scrums per match, but you are looking at over 150 rucks per match.

The Super XV teams are getting used to playing the rucks faster as they are being officiated much more strictly now. Thus forcing them to play quicker.

England especially in their half are pedantic when it comes to setting the ruck and securing the ball. Which scrum half is less pedantic there?

I have no doubt they will have enough bulk in their pack to gain parity.

SA's line outs may seem a potential weakness with the retirement of Victor and Bakkies being in France, but Andries bekker perhaps not a monster on opposition ball are ruthlessly accurate on our ball. I would expect Juandre Kruger or Flip van der Merwe to be partnering him. So lineouts I would suggest equal.

So to me it wil be all about the ruck and the back line.

As usual Biltong, your points on rucking are absolutely spot on. Completely agree with all this.

Personally I would love to see England back to the strength they had in 2002-03. It would be fantastic to see, great competition for the rest of us.

Do you know if there is any call for Matfield to help out with the boks. My feeling is he's probably the world's pre eminant lineout technician and I'm sure he would make a significant impact as a lineout coach.

biltongbek wrote:
SA's line outs may seem a potential weakness with the retirement of Victor and Bakkies being in France, but Andries bekker perhaps not a monster on opposition ball are ruthlessly accurate on our ball. I would expect Juandre Kruger or Flip van der Merwe to be partnering him. So lineouts I would suggest equal.

The biggest challenge for England will be their defence. Over the last 7 matches they have conceded 26 tries and only once in the final of 2007 left us tryless.

Well, what success this side has had has been built on a pretty good defence. Even the Welsh monsters had trouble. Hopeful signs, at least, that this issue is being addressed.

The other issue for them is they have only scored 5 tries themselves in those seven matches.

Apart from the Guscott/Greenwood eras we've always had problems here. I think I've seen signs of attempts to move the ball, but nothing I can really call an attack.

So they will most certainly have to do something about the slow ruck ball they are currently gaining. In that situation I would siggest a mobile pack would likely be more usefull than one that can scrummage like a monster, but are slow in general game play.

Must admit I'm hoping here. We did better than I dared hope in the 6Ns with Robshaw, Morgan and Croft but this is certainly an area of concern and one that could cost us the series.

There are only 10 - 20 scrums per match, but you are looking at over 150 rucks per match.

The Super XV teams are getting used to playing the rucks faster as they are being officiated much more strictly now. Thus forcing them to play quicker.

England especially in their half are pedantic when it comes to setting the ruck and securing the ball. Which scrum half is less pedantic there?

Frankly I'd be glad to see an end to the endless piling over the top and sealing off that goes on without apparent sanction. Is counter-rucking a thing of the past?

I do find it hard to say anything definitive about this side at present simply because they are so new and one hopes the obvious errors will be ironed out by the next game and quite often so far they have been. This does look a difficult area for us. I'm beginning to suspect an attitude that the whole pack are loose forwards these days - certainly Cole's work in the loose hints at it. What precisely that means for the development of the England game I do not know, but I'm watching with interest.

I have no doubt they will have enough bulk in their pack to gain parity.

Probably. Usually are somewhere close. But I'm looking to see the scrummage used as a weapon if we can.

SA's line outs may seem a potential weakness with the retirement of Victor and Bakkies being in France, but Andries bekker perhaps not a monster on opposition ball are ruthlessly accurate on our ball. I would expect Juandre Kruger or Flip van der Merwe to be partnering him. So lineouts I would suggest equal.

We seem reasonably secure on our own ball, but Hartley has a bad habit of poor throws in pressure situations. Not always, but it's not a strength. I have SA ahead there.

So to me it wil be all about the ruck and the back line.

The ruck is my greatest concern with our line out not far behind. The back line given what we've seen so far I'm a bit less concerned about (defensively) but attack, well, who knows? I must admit I'm hoping we've found a destructive scrum, but that's mainly because I really like destructive scrums.

Its was quite simple really. SL came in as caretaker, laid down the law and didnt not select some players for being complete fools. He made the England players feel as if they had to earn the jersy and thats always got to be good. he gave player 'Farrell' their first big chance and stood by them giving them alot of confidence.

To me its a great choice and England improved under him with every game. And Ruby (luv ya mate) but England didnt scrap to second, they out played France away and beat Ireland comfortably at home. England have the makings there of a good team. Good luck to them

A real step in the right direction,lets hope he has the support around him SCW enjoyed.Also lets hope the RFU and the fans have the guts to stay with this Coaching team until 2015.
A promising start but don`t lets get carried away,Scotland and Italy should have been losses.
A win in SA,plus 3 out of 4 in the AI`s will show progress big time,talk of loss of form.Of the wings is a little hypocritical when they don`t get the ball,Tuilagi is a talent.NOW let him learn how to pass the ball to his supports.

Billy - I see you conveniently left out the Scotland and Italy games there

Billy - I see you conveniently left out the Scotland and Italy games there

No more than you are the France and Ireland ones.

All this Welsh posturing is starting to reek of nerves to me. Fortunately the team seem unaffected.

Cowshot - Wales scraped past Ireland and struggled v Scotland - The difference is that I can accept that - This thread is about England by the way and you are the one getting defensive - if you think you strolled past Scotland, Italy and France then that's your perogative

I am well aware we scraped past Scotland in the team's first game together, and Italy nearly did us (I had Italy as favourites before the game).

No doubt some English posters are getting a bit overheated, though I personally have noticed little other than the usual wumming, but it seems to me that you are rather tilting at windmills in this case.

Can't say I feel defensive - I haven't enjoyed supporting England Rugby this much for nearly a decade. It's got a very different feel to it just now and I'm rather proud of these boys.

Where am I tilting at windmills? all you've done now is agreed with my post so I'm not sure where your going. Apart from winning the thing Wales were average in most if not all of their games IMO, that's hardly eulogising

Stuart Lancaster is the best man to identify and bring through the superb age grade players who are 2nd best in the world at U-18 and U-20 levels.
On top of that is a very strong Saxons unit and there is every reason for optimism for the future.

If you look at the 6Ns England were the only team that were improving game on game.
Granted we started from a low point , but that was almost inevitable.....but we won.
Thereafter we got better and better.

I'm certainly not underestimating the year ahead but there is a lot to look forward to and if you are a currently an England fringe player it must be exciting times indeed.

RubyGuby wrote:Where am I tilting at windmills? all you've done now is agreed with my post so I'm not sure where your going. Apart from winning the thing Wales were average in most if not all of their games IMO, that's hardly eulogising

Well, since I am agreeing with eirebilly and you and I agree, doesn't that mean you agree with eirebilly? So why were you accusing him of "ignoring" the Scottish and Italian games?

hah! The easy escape into smileys!

Just when I had you wriggling in the crushing grip of Reason, too.

Cowshot - I think you're making this up as you go along - I'm glad you're excited, its nice - I'll maintain that England scrambled to a deserved runners up spot after squeezing past Scotland and Italy, I will also maintain that Wales performances were not up there with the level of the RWC but I know there is more to come. As for wriggling in the crushing grip of reason, I've seen more reasoning in Andy Robinsons selections

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Stuart Lancaster is the best man to identify and bring through the superb age grade players who are 2nd best in the world at U-18 and U-20 levels.
On top of that is a very strong Saxons unit and there is every reason for optimism for the future.

If you look at the 6Ns England were the only team that were improving game on game.
Granted we started from a low point , but that was almost inevitable.....but we won.
Thereafter we got better and better.

I'm certainly not underestimating the year ahead but there is a lot to look forward to and if you are a currently an England fringe player it must be exciting times indeed.

I can understand why people get excited by it but in practice things never stay in the 'experimental phase'.

Trev is excited and looking forward to fringe players getting an opportunity. Well, yes, I'm depressed (rugby-wise) and wishing more fringe players would get picked for Ireland.

Where that wish might crumble is when a coach feels he needs wins more than continued 'experimentation'. In Kidney's case it is a sense of paranoia - a sense that nothing is working and therefore a lack of faith in using newer players to try it. Better the devil you know when you're chasing your tail trying to work out what's going wrong with your understanding of what rugby should be and how to play it.

So caution and fear can actually often stall a coach and keep him picking a side that isn't being successful, somehow always thinking that salvation is just around the corner... that all the current players need is a renewal of confidence.

But there is another reason why a coach might stick to his select few and that can be because he doesn't want to upset the rhythms of a successful side, a winning side. The pressure will be on Lancaster now to keep winning. The fans like it, they're praising the methods he has used - choosing a low-key attitude and some bright new players. But the fans think it a winning formula and won't want to be proved wrong. Therefore pressure will be on him not to tamper too much and upset a rhythm developing.

It's surprising how quickly the new 'experimental/fringe' players become the household names, the heros, the players the fans don't want the coach to replace. When he tries it a few months down the line from here or next year, in the interests of development, and he possibly loses a game or two - the warmth shown by fans for his development approach can dry up quickly and become the millstone around his neck, forcing him back down the traditional route of trusting the future and his career to a deck of usual suspects. When we have the fringe players we want, then our enthusiasm for 'fringe' players can dry up rapidly Fans, who'd have them?

"It's surprising how quickly the new 'experimental/fringe' players become the household names, the heros, the players the fans don't want the coach to replace. When he tries it a few months down the line from here or next year, in the interests of development, and he possibly loses a game or two - the warmth shown by fans for his development approach can dry up quickly and become the millstone around his neck, forcing him back down the traditional route of trusting the future and his career to a deck of usual suspects. When we have the fringe players we want, then our enthusiasm for 'fringe' players can dry up rapidly Fans, who'd have them?"

One of the truest things i've seen written on these boards Fly, extremely well put. Us fans really are our own worst enemies!

Cowshot - I think you're making this up as you go along - I'm glad you're excited, its nice - I'll maintain that England scrambled to a deserved runners up spot after squeezing past Scotland and Italy, I will also maintain that Wales performances were not up there with the level of the RWC but I know there is more to come. As for wriggling in the crushing grip of reason, I've seen more reasoning in Andy Robinsons selections

You can see it how you wish, of course. I see that we improved game on game, with a good spirit in the team and camp, with a very inexperienced side. We have at present a new team, new coaches, a new manager, new board and new CEO. Compared with where we were after the WC, few of us dreamed things would be looking this rosy now!

I know of course that we will lose games as the side progresses - We've got the ABs this Autumn and I doubt very much we'll be ready for THEM quite yet. But it will be good to meaure up against them and see where we are. Before we get there however, there's the small mattern of SA this Summer and that won't be easy. Again, we could be in a lot worse shape going in. Excited? You bet!

Also very much like the look of this Welsh team. You say they played badly against us among others? I don't know about the others, but I say we made you play badly for much of the game. That's to our credit. You won anyway - that's to yours, and why I think you will beat the Aussies this Summer. Very much hoping you do - think it will be good for B&I Rugby in general.

RubyGuby wrote:Billy - I see you conveniently left out the Scotland and Italy games there

Yeah but Scotland was the first game together and Italy was'nt in the best of conditions

RubyGuby wrote:I've seen more reasoning in Andy Robinsons selections

Now that's just unkind!

Fly

I take your point entirely about conservatism creeping in when the fans demand wins. However, if you look at what's coming up, no reasonable fan (is there such at thing?) will blame Lancaster if we lose to SA or one of the other SH bidg hitters while he's in the process of developing the side.

Remember, we saw MJ ruin the RWC by going ultra conservative, and I think we've all had it with that.

nobbled wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:I've seen more reasoning in Andy Robinsons selections

Now that's just unkind!

To who, Cowshot?

I really like SL's approach to the England team. He could just be the man to get England back to their glory days. It will take a few years but the talent is out there and SL is not afraid to pick on a hunch.

eirebilly wrote:I really like SL's approach to the England team. He could just be the man to get England back to their glory days. It will take a few years but the talent is out there and SL is not afraid to pick on a hunch.

I think so.

I just like a manager to do things his own way and not buckle to any media or pundit pressure. SL certainly does things his own way and is not afraid to pick on form players instead of big named players. A great quaility that i wish Kidnet for Ireland shared

Great news for England. Lancaster was just the tonic they needed after the RWC debacle. A clearout of the old & divisive and in with the new and talented hungry players. Really admire his no-nonsense approach with anyone who steps out of line. Its a good guy too. Honest and with a strict work-ethic.

England's future has just taken a sharp upward-curve. All the best with it lads. That team and squad will only get stronger under Lancaster.

England are in a new cycle

We're in a rare period of optimism.

Deep down in places that we do not talk about at dinner parties we know that it won't last so here's an accelerated version of the reality we face : England are doomed.

As much as Lancaster and his support coaches are excellent - ulitmately they have poor cattle to work with. Cattle who when expertly herded were enough to give good account of themselves at 6N level but who will be found out in the coming Test matches. Even our vaunted defecence and particularly discipline in defence will crumble. Penalty counts will soar. Yellow cards will fly.

We're only as good as what our rubbish Aviva premiership produces. Not good enough : players who cannot execute basic draw and pass skills and no depth at prop, hooker, number 8, openside?, scrum half, or centre.

Club coaches up and down the country should, for their gross dereliction of duty be marched through the streets of every market town and city so that we can throw rotten tomatos at them.

On and off field discipline remains as rubbish as ever with players falling over themselves to be cited for months on end or arrested, hamstringing our meagre 1st 22 playing resources.

The bash bash dull style of the premiership causes a masive injury attrition rate which will hurt our selections.

We cannot logically expect to win a bean between now and the next 6N.

The Lancaster goodwill will quickly evaporate in the Republic of South Africa. Nick Mallet will be very smug. It will be awfull.

We will lose our way through the slide to 8th in the IRB rankings and be seeded at out own RWC with the All Blacks.

We and the RFU will hold our collective nerve until 6-12months out from the RWC when Lancaster will be sacked with Sir Clive Woodward parachuted in at the last minute.

He will immediately select Banahan and Worsley and we will get bombed out in the group stages.

The cycle will then repeat.

Well that's me back on the tablets. Thanks for that Tri.

Triangulation

Wow - you're just noy a glass half full kind of person at all are you?

Some of that actually has some truth in it. I agree our skill levels are way behing the SH & also agree with the bash bash & attrition comments.

However, none of that is new and, arguably isn't our biggest problem.

In 2003, our skill levels were no better than now, but we had a totally committed, united team with a great ethos, excellent defence and a belief that they could win. They ended up doing alright.

I think if we try to become NZ, SA or Aus, we'll only end up as a slightly inferior copy.

Let's develop our strengths & take it from there
.

WE are going to take some hammerings along the way, but that's all part of the learning curve.

Keep the faith

Triangulation wrote:

We will lose our way through the slide to 8th in the IRB rankings and be seeded at out own RWC with the All Blacks.

Look on the bright side - two chances to play them in a WC. Bums on seats guarantee!!!!

Triangulation wrote:England are in a new cycle

We're in a rare period of optimism.

Deep down in places that we do not talk about at dinner parties we know that it won't last so here's an accelerated version of the reality we face : England are doomed.

As much as Lancaster and his support coaches are excellent - ulitmately they have poor cattle to work with. Cattle who when expertly herded were enough to give good account of themselves at 6N level but who will be found out in the coming Test matches. Even our vaunted defecence and particularly discipline in defence will crumble. Penalty counts will soar. Yellow cards will fly.

We're only as good as what our rubbish Aviva premiership produces. Not good enough : players who cannot execute basic draw and pass skills and no depth at prop, hooker, number 8, openside?, scrum half, or centre.

Club coaches up and down the country should, for their gross dereliction of duty be marched through the streets of every market town and city so that we can throw rotten tomatos at them.

On and off field discipline remains as rubbish as ever with players falling over themselves to be cited for months on end or arrested, hamstringing our meagre 1st 22 playing resources.

The bash bash dull style of the premiership causes a masive injury attrition rate which will hurt our selections.

We cannot logically expect to win a bean between now and the next 6N.

The Lancaster goodwill will quickly evaporate in the Republic of South Africa. Nick Mallet will be very smug. It will be awfull.

We will lose our way through the slide to 8th in the IRB rankings and be seeded at out own RWC with the All Blacks.

We and the RFU will hold our collective nerve until 6-12months out from the RWC when Lancaster will be sacked with Sir Clive Woodward parachuted in at the last minute.

He will immediately select Banahan and Worsley and we will get bombed out in the group stages.

The cycle will then repeat.

Tri, man, I really do believe you are Marvin The Paranoid Androids distant Éarth-cousin. The genius you put into it.

"I've a brain the size of Planet, and they've had me parking cars in the RFU car-park for 2 million years now. Its a never-ending cycle of DOOM. Nothing EVER changes. And no one ever listens to me. Im soo depressed"

Believe.