Derbies or matches with venom

I´ve just come back from watching Atletico Madrid vs Real Madrid. Though they lost 4-1 in the end (at least that was the score when I left) Atletico played reasonably well and were in the match for most of the game. Some Ronaldo brilliance and a dubious penalty and the match sneaked and then sprinted away from them.

That said, soaking up the atmosphere and, being perfectly honest, not caring about the result (I´m an ateltico season card holder only because I like drinking and my married with children friends have little opportunity otherwise to go out after the game like tonight) I couldn't help but think of the fanatic support I encountered for the home side and started thinking whether I had encountered anything similar in my rugby experience. Spanish people are very vocal and there is a special atmosphere in the ground because of that. In NZ, we tend to be less vocal I think though certainly no less fanatic.

I couldn't help but think back to the Ranfurly Shield days of epic matches between the powerhouse of NZ rugby when I was growing up - Auckland - and teams I had a fondness for like Otago and Wellington alongside my beloved Canterbury. Those games attracted huge crowds. Maybe not as much volume but certainly as much passion.

Later I remember vividly the Crusaders´breakthrough match where Kerr scored a try against the much more favoured Blues side and started the Crusader legacy. Games like that are easy from the underdog perspective to remember with a warm feeling of nostalgia but the rivalry between Canterbury and Auckland is as strong as any other rivalry in NZ. Canterbury rugby used to be awful in the 90s and my adopted team became the Otago side that had players like Anton Oliver, Carl Hoeft, John Timu, Jeff Wilson, Marc Ellis, Arran Pene and Taine Randall.

Then from an international perspective I remember vividly the matches we played in the 90s in the Nobody era which we invariably lost or earlier the Campese era. Then the Springboks particularly at home. Those were games where the feeling was that you were probably going to lose and they made those matches all the more enjoyable as well as painful to watch.

I forget the year when John Eales got a penalty and decided to go for goal and ended up kicking the winning goal himself. Heartbreaking stuff for AB supporters but that hollow feeling of defeat was quickly filled up with a burning need for revenge. Unfortunately it took a while to achieve as did a series win in SA. But when it did come it felt good because there was so much respect for the opposition.

So it could be a local derby, your close international neighbours or your tradtional rivals. It could be the feeling that you were doomed to inevitable failure clashing against the slimmest of hopes for victory. It could be the feeling of intense rivalry or even hatred of the opposition you faced. But what stand out for you as the best derby matches you have seen or test or club games that have had the best atmosphere or the result has been the most significant?

The matches that will always stick in my memory are:

Opening game of the 1995 RWC, we were given no chance of beating the defending champions, when Pieter Hendriks went past Campese with that inside out move and put his hand in the air, I knew we had won.

RWC final 1995, winning the world cup and getting to that final was surreal, we weren't supposed to get there, the pulverising runs of Lomu was a real threat and the All Blacks were confident, winning that match was the most tense I have ever been.

Local derbies Bulls vs sharks vs Stormers are always uncompromising and very physical encounters. I don't support any particular province in SA, but usually anyone from SA that plays against the Bulls as I am not much of a fan of their culture.

RWC 95 final...what a travesty of justice. The ABs were clearly the best side and if SA had not poisoned most of the ABs then we would not have had to endure Matt Damon playing rugby.

As a Chiefs fan (Exeter) i'm starting to notice a real rivalry starting up with Glaws (in a friendly way!). We've beaten each other in each fixture over the last two seasons and loads of fans travel to the away fixture from both sides. Always loads of noise from each set of fans and generally a nail biting finish. It's also just about on the limit of the Westcountry derbies (Sorry Wuss, you're Midlands!) as well, which gives it a nice 'local' feel. Yep, these so far have been my favourite matches since our promotion and i'll always make the effort to drag my sorry ar$e to watch!

hugehandoff wrote:RWC 95 final...what a travesty of justice. The ABs were clearly the best side and if SA had not poisoned most of the ABs then we would not have had to endure Matt Damon playing rugby.

well we weren't the favourites, so how else would we have won, we were certainly not a good team.

biltongbek

Don't forget you also got the SA military to turn on their 'rain machine' during the SF with France.

Of course, how could I forget that, it did almost bite us in the backside though.

Remember if the game couldn't take place we would have been out.

Nothing for me gets the blood pumping more when we play the mighty Boks is when we play them on the high veld. I envy how you still have great rivalry in the Currie Cup. I think the fact that the top players often don't play in the ITM has taken the gloss off those derby matches for me.

The CC is not what it used to be Kia....

much like the ITM none of those in the bok 3N squads tend to get a run out until the SF stage due to the summer tours and 3N running at the same time.

Attendances drop significantly due to this issue.

Shows how the Lions can win the CC in 2011 and then with the same bunch of players be the worst S15 team in SA in 2012. its because their first XV (with hardly any current boks amongst them) fight it out against the reserves of the other sides.

Come the SF though the matches still bring out the same old intensity.

That´s a shame that the CC is showing a similar trend.

Maybe it´s my distaste of the current format of the Pooper 15, but to me the conference derby matches don´t have the same sting about them as the old provincial rivalries there used to be in NZ. Then again, maybe the game has moved on in that regard and there is more emphasis on the high end of the game given its professional than the more traditional or grassroots level rugby that existed in the amateur era.

Maybe it's also because I went to bed at 4:30 and was up at 6:20. Today is a write-off. I´m riding on vapour.

Tigers vs Saints in the play off last year (the one with the Manu punching Ashton episode), the atmosphere for that was intense. Before the game even kicked off it was like a cauldron in there, you could almost taste the atmosphere. Never been to or played in a game like that. The rugby on show wasn't the greatest but for an atmosphere it was incredible.

For a game of rugby then the 2010 AP final Tigers vs Sarries is my all time favourite with end to end stuff and plenty of tries (pity Sarries gave up on the try after that game). Sarries late penalty looking to have won the game only for Tigers to score a try from the restart and then Sarries having an attacking lineout deep in the Tigers 22 with no time on the clock. Big Parling steal sending Twickers crazy.

biltongbek wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:RWC 95 final...what a travesty of justice. The ABs were clearly the best side and if SA had not poisoned most of the ABs then we would not have had to endure Matt Damon playing rugby.

well we weren't the favourites, so how else would we have won, we were certainly not a good team.

You had Morgan Freeman on your side, that's how.

fa0019 wrote:The CC is not what it used to be Kia....

much like the ITM none of those in the bok 3N squads tend to get a run out until the SF stage due to the summer tours and 3N running at the same time.

Attendances drop significantly due to this issue.

Shows how the Lions can win the CC in 2011 and then with the same bunch of players be the worst S15 team in SA in 2012. its because their first XV (with hardly any current boks amongst them) fight it out against the reserves of the other sides.

Come the SF though the matches still bring out the same old intensity.

That is unfortunately very true.

George Carlin wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:RWC 95 final...what a travesty of justice. The ABs were clearly the best side and if SA had not poisoned most of the ABs then we would not have had to endure Matt Damon playing rugby.

well we weren't the favourites, so how else would we have won, we were certainly not a good team.

You had Morgan Freeman on your side, that's how.

No, George, we HAD MADIBA, Morgan Freeman was his body double.

biltongbek wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:RWC 95 final...what a travesty of justice. The ABs were clearly the best side and if SA had not poisoned most of the ABs then we would not have had to endure Matt Damon playing rugby.

well we weren't the favourites, so how else would we have won, we were certainly not a good team.

You had Morgan Freeman on your side, that's how.

No, George, we HAD MADIBA, Morgan Freeman was his body double.

very good gents... saw a clip the other day- Glenn Osborne- said at least 6 players shouldnt have taken the field that day and they knew it...but damned if they were going to miss the biggest match of their lives... fair enough too...what a position to be in.

Its just another episode that makes the SA NZ matches so memorable- the 81 match at Eden Park being the most surreal test ever..protesters, planes flying into and below the stadium, hitting Gary Knight with a flour bomb, barb wire everywhere.

Then the rugby, 3 tries to Mordt, Wilsons superb try of Hewsons run and Hewsons final nail biting kick to pip it in the dying seconds.

Unbelievable...

Times are a changing too Kia. That Auckland powerhouse of the 80's is no more and we've resorted t seeing a tearful Lam on our screens this week.

The Social media has hit him bad- I havnt read the main ones but elements of racism etc really hitting home.

But in the end its a job, and Auckland has one of the proudest of any region in the entire history of the sport. Auckland has 4 times the population of any other city and many powerful and well supported clubs.

They've more than 10 current/ past All Blacks and simply should be far better. So although I've empathy for Lam, it must fall with him as the primary source of the problem, and its not something that's just surfaced its been there for at least 10 years.

Taylorman, I keep on hearing his race was blamed, what exactly is this all about?

Its the 'dumb islander' thing that keeps coming up. Its rife through NZ and all kiwi's know it but don't really admit it. Pacific Island and Maori still contribute to most of the lower socio economic statistics in NZ- lower education levels, incomes, housing, employment etc so in some minds don't rate 'generally' well on the intelligence scale.

It's the same argument thrown up a year or two ago as instrumental to the Crusaders success- they limit their number of islanders to say 3 believing more 'dumbs' down the team.

The thinking is they're ok for their individual flair, speed and talent, but in numbers don't contribute so much to the structure, discipline and strategy.

The Blues have a considerable %- by far more than the other sides- of Maori and particularly PI players and Lam is Samoan himself.

So unfortunately many disgruntled fans have chosen to voice this over enthusiastically, Lam being the head honcho and victim.

Whether there is a point to it all is up for discussion and some could say the signs are there- there is a distinct lack of structure and discipline. Lam has failed to transform highly successful individual players into a successful unit.

He failed to put pressure on Weepu to be fit for the new season- a well known problem with Weepu and other than the Bulls match their failure to regroup and focus on the key elements of a good gameplan is proving a laughing stock. The no look pass to Beale last week typical of a lack of discipline in the mind.

Lam lacks nothing in resources. 10 All Blacks +, has the richest environment for training purposes, has been assisted at least once I know of by Henry and has been groomed for the position as ITM coach for several years.

Having played with Maori and Islanders all my rugby days theres a distinct truth to some of it but whats being sent Lam's way is a bit over the top.

Personally, culture aside, I think he's a professional and has failed in a very responsible position and should step aside immediately. Its time to man up and go. Real world, real responsibilities, real expectations.

Auckland rugby has reached its lowest point...ever.

Sad to hear that, but fans will speak their mind when they are unhappy, even if Lam wasn't a pacific islander, problem is they find the easiest stick to beat you with.

RWC 95 has had more conspiracy theories emerge from it than any other RWC. Its actually quite funny . I was in SA for the whole tournement and it was brilliant.

For the original question, give me a derby any day of the week

There are a number of them floating around for 2012 as well mate, just don't think they will be welcome over here.

They all seem to involve South Africa though biltong

Yep, a bit of Holly Wilaboobie for tat, mate.

Look at this match from 1983. Strange to see no lifting in the lineout. This was John Kirwan´s first appearance on Lancaster Park. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J7MA_6qh6k and Canterbury's fitness proved too strong. Couldn´t find the match Auckland won to show you the crowd spilling onto the park at the end. But still an impressive crowd.

Back then, ticket prices were more affordable and your rugby heroes played a lot fewer games so there were not many chances to see your heroes. Now it seems the home test matches get alright crowds but the provincial rugby crowds are getting leaner and leaner. Sad to see. Not even a local derby match like Otago vs Canterbury or the dreaded enemy Auckland can pull in the big crowds now.

Morning folks

Talking about derbies,There are talks afloat in New Zealand at the moment to play a North Versus South Island match,during the 3 week super xv break in June.
There are some sticking points,no ABs would be involved as they have committments with Ireland,The Super xv want there players to take the opportunity to rest and who would be the coach.

Biltong/Taylorman
Talking above about the rascist criticism involving Auckland,it has to be remembered that those making these anonymous remarks,hiding behind social media are very small in number,the point that seems to be getting overlooked is that there are plenty of other Aucklanders who have very valid criticism of this team,lack of preparation etc, purely based on rugby grounds however Lam and co seem to disregard those constructive comments.

From what Ive seen Lam hasnt disregarded then. Many times hes acknowledged it.Almost ad nauseum.
But if you mean nothings being done about it. I agree.
And again. Two dumb passes and intercepts.Teams are now looking for them its that obvious.
Still thought with 2 tries against run of play and a knock on that directly contributed to the try in the same motion sharks could be considered lucky to win this one..
But look at the high error rate of the blues. Still snatching at passes dropping balls wrong options. The blues should have run away with the chances they fluffed.
Man I hop the saders and chiefs front tonight and put some respect back into our game because the blues just continue to embarass.

yes on second thoughts,you are quite right he has talked about issues but done very llittle else,and Andy Dalton has done even less.

Taylorman wrote:From what Ive seen Lam hasnt disregarded then. Many times hes acknowledged it.Almost ad nauseum.
But if you mean nothings being done about it. I agree.
And again. Two dumb passes and intercepts.Teams are now looking for them its that obvious.
Still thought with 2 tries against run of play and a knock on that directly contributed to the try in the same motion sharks could be considered lucky to win this one..
But look at the high error rate of the blues. Still snatching at passes dropping balls wrong options. The blues should have run away with the chances they fluffed.
Man I hop the saders and chiefs front tonight and put some respect back into our game because the blues just continue to embarass.

Taylorman the Blues played the better rugby yesterday, it was obvious the sharks missed Bismarck's physicality at the breakdown. The match itself was very entertaining to watch however the errors of the Blues, the poor execution of the sharks once again at the breakdown and Steve Walsh' very poor perfromance made the game itself a lottery.

The sharks did indeed score that try from a knock on, however the Blues themselves got two "illegal" tries. Thefrist was when Woodcock dropped in the scrum and somehow the Blues gained a tight head, and scored from there. That was a blatant penalty to the Sharks.

Then when the Blues refused to take the hit in the scrum during the time they were deep in shaarks 22, even whilst Walsh was shouting at the Blues to take the hit he stilll allowed the Blues to take advantage of the loose ball off the scrum to score a try.

So fortune went to both teams in that match. Luckily though it didn't effect the match resut, but might as well have. For a change at least the breakdown are was only contentioous once in my view when the Blues got a penalty when Lambie was tackled and deemed to hold on when it was clear the Blues player has gone off his feet, I think it was Ranger.

Perhaps with the luck thing though i still see that its a bit different getting a clear knock on on the way to the line that contributes directly to the try.

The Blues having to 'somehow win a tighthead and score a try' from the resulting incorrect decision suggests a little more was required in effort to gain the try. With the knock on it was a direct result. It just depends how far you want to go back.

I see a knock on which contributes directly to a try as far more a factor of unfairness than a scrum in which the wronged team had every chance to repel the situation as they do with any scrum. The blues did not. The try they actually scored was legit. The try the bulls got was not.

Small difference but a key one in terms of the 'luck' stakes.

In any case for Lam to come out a say that he was proud of such an error ridden performance at home vs a team that a canes side dealt to a week earlier and at home just shows how lost this team is.

Then again, just goes to show how different this year is, mainly in Australia and NZ. Who would´ve thought the Brumbies would be the leading Aussie franchise before the start of the season and that the Chiefs were at the top of the table at this stage with a prop as the tournament´s leading try scorer?!

If someone had put money on that, then you start talking about the luck stakes!

Yes its all gone very oddly Kia with the exception of perhaps the SA franchises, the main 3 leading the way as usual.

The bonus for NZ sides is really the Canes and Chiefs bringing so many players through to a stable side. We knew the 2 South Island teams would figure but the Blues/ Canes I thought would be the reverse of what it is now.

I think the only real difference in the SA conference is the Cheetahs who have had some really bright young stars put their hand up this season.

The match they lost to the Brumbies was unfortunate, they could have been higher up the table.

The Cheetahs have always played the most exciting brand of rugby and this year it seems they have made a step up due to players like Coenie Oosthuizen who has found his feet now, Struass their captain (although they missed his physicality on the weekend). Goosen has been very good, Danniler who has been around for a while now all of a sudden makes a bigger impact and Robert Ebersohn has also been much improved.

Sadly for the Cheetahs, they still struggle to compete against real physical teams.

Yes they have been good. Imagine that brand as the new SA. Youd have Oz and SA thrilling the crowds with little NZ struggling to foot it with the pace.

Always thought it a crime that the hard and fast tracks arent used more by Bok backs. We see it at lower levels and then it disappears.