All Roads Lead to Rome.......

As we are told, but Rome in all its glory forgot that all the roads also lead out of Rome.
The top14 is also in the same situation,
It is the elephant in the room.
The financial bubble is going to burst in France and the purse strings will be tightened and the International team will suffer from this influx of overseas players, Then the knives will be out .

Let them have their moment because we all will be laughing at them in a few seasons when everyone is fleeing

Nothing but a bunch of vultures. I will be there to laugh when it all comes crashing down.

So will I, this will hurt french rugby for years

Lovely people you two.

but Rome in all its glory forgot that all the roads also lead out of Rome.

Don't all roads in any town lead out of that town at some point? Unless it's a tangential road, or a ring road.....

BoyneRFC wrote:

but Rome in all its glory forgot that all the roads also lead out of Rome.

Don't all roads in any town lead out of that town at some point? Unless it's a tangential road, or a ring road.....

Well not in a one way system Boyne.

Try getting out of Milton Keynes. I swear the roundabouts shift.

LondonTiger wrote:Try getting out of Milton Keynes. I swear the roundabouts shift.

ITs the only way they can get people to stay there.


Being on topic though, the French ability to throw money at players does seem to be unsustainable, however look at the football teams in England they have been doing it, and getting more over the top with it every season, so maybe the French rugby clubs can maintain it.

As the French clubs are reducing theamount the are allowed to pay - and as they have always had affordability rules (with some clubs relegated two divisions for failing them - something that almost happened to Stade Francais) - I suspect we will not see a raft of French clubs disappearing into the mire.

English clubs and Welsh regions are at much more risk. Of course the OP has already stated that no-one will miss the AP.

Surely something has to do with the money men in French rugby a la nancyball?

We dont have big private investors in our teams in Ireland. Pretty sure none in Wales / Scotland. Don't know about England.

Treviso is obviously being bankrolled by Benetton...

BoyneRFC wrote:Surely something has to do with the money men in French rugby a la nancyball?

We dont have big private investors in our teams in Ireland. Pretty sure none in Wales / Scotland. Don't know about England.

Treviso is obviously being bankrolled by Benetton...

Not corporations, but the money men are involved massively in Wales. It's no surprise that generally the top two teams have been the Ospreys and the Blues, bankrolled by Cuddy (construction) and Peter Thomas (of Peter's Pies fame) respectively. The poorest region, the Dragons have been the only one with out a benefactor as Tony Brown, the old Newport RFC benefactor, decided not to put his money in when it all went regional. The Scarlets had Huw someone or other too who put in massive amounts of money.

However, and I've said this before, relying on benefactors is great when the team is doing well and the money is flowing in, but these are businessmen, and businessmen will make business decisions and that means that they could walk away at the drop of a hat. Cardiff Blues are massively in dept to PT as he has loaned them money and is charging a nice bit of interest on it. PT has also said that he won't pay for Welsh Internationals when they are away, which led to Gethin Jenkins leaving as he was told his new contract would be 60% of his old one! Cuddy has threatened to walk away from the Ospreys too.

Money men are massively involved in Wales, and now that the chips are down they look like pulling their money out, which is why benefactors shouldn't be relied upon.

The football Prem League, I've heard the same for over 10 years, we'll be laughing when it all goes bust, it hasn't, and I suspect in 10 years we'll still be hearing the same about the Top 14.

Only way the Pro 12 can compete is to become like the German football league, with restrictions on debt of clubs etc etc, The German league is now the 3rd best in Europe (ahead of Italy and even stole one of their european places).

The Pro 12 can bring in more money in the future, and market to wider audances, just needs to market itself, the good news is Ulster and Edinburgh getting to H-cup semi finals means new groups of fans that don't normally get to see there teams at this stage are coming to watch the big games, and may in turn show up for smaller league games.

Thanks Griff- very interesting.

They will be fine because

1. Bigest turn over than anyone else in the wolrd

2. Higher attendaces when discount s15 but nothing like the travel

3. They play more games and with and extra 3k turning out per game per week it adds up to a couple more players a year

4. More tv and sponsership deals

5. More local benefactors who love the club and money isn't and issue. Bath would be better if they were allowed. Saracens not because as my dad says if you moved once and invested its just as easy to do it again.
Wales has local people but not in the same money range

6. I would say that french players are better and are in the top 7-8 teams anyway so they are strong to begin with

7. Do better in Europe on average so get more ERC money

French rugby relies a lot on moneymen, especially now with the salary cap. French rugby will no longer grow unless something very Toulon happens to the teams in say the lower half of the table and the French divisions. The usual suspects will be ruling French rugby and stealing players from the minnows as well as overseas clubs.

Perhaps in France a system similar to that of South Africa would work very well for them. Allow the Top 14 to run throughout the entire season. When it comes to the Heineken Cup merge only the France qualified players into 6 Franchises to compete in the tournament. These 6 act as the base to select the France national teams from. After the heineken Cup the french internationals could go back for the final weeks of the Top 14 to encourage more attendance and interest from players/fans. This way it could be possible for the additional two teams to their domestic league as they have proposed.

I all fairness I don't see the the french Nation sides being in trouble.

The problem with english soccer was that you had english internationals playing for the top clubs but only playing part as there were better internationals playing infront of them.

Look at Fofana, Plays for agurably the strongest squad team in the world but plays at only 20.

Are there any French internationals who aren't getting games at Top 14 they may be rested a bit more then the overseas but we all agree that is good for the international player.

The only problem Franch seem to have is French keeping frenchout eg Sevat and Starkevski (you know who I mean)

Brendan wrote:The only problem Franch seem to have is French keeping frend out eg Sevat and Starkevski (you know who I mean)

Em....... I don't really.

SecretFly wrote:

Brendan wrote:The only problem Franch seem to have is French keeping frend out eg Sevat and Starkevski (you know who I mean)

Em....... I don't really.

What do you mean, the french aren't keeping the french out, I don't think so either but that is the only problem I see for the national time. Frenchs top 30-40 players don't have a problem getting a game. France would have enough strenght in depth with 40 players.

I can't think of any french squad or fringe players not getting games for club apart from some toulouse players and they are often other french players keeping them out

The pretty boy hooker.

Uses the same leg waxer as Gav.

Szarzewski that is not Servat.

Spoiler:

yeah hookers are meant to look like servat the best in the scrum so they don't put the women off.

it is tough for some french players to get game time at the higher level : tighthead and fly-half are some areas where there is a clear deficit of quality french players as you need time for that and often it is easier to buy an experienced foreigner so the young home grown prospects will have to stay longer playing at lower level. for that reason you will not see a lot of 20 year old getting to play for france...
Another side effect of the quota pushing pro teams to have at least 50% of France grown players (jiffs) is an increase of the value of quality french players (vs the same foreigner in terms of skills) so the "poorer" teams (agen, brive, ubb )are ending up fielding teams with mostly SH players (in another post someone mentionned agen were fielding 14 foreigners with a french 9 at some point). reminds me of football in England where any good English player transfer is at a big premium (Caroll to Liverpool for instance).

But the financial bubble for France as a nation not just rugby is going to burst and rich business men hold onto their money when things get tight.

whocares wrote:it is tough for some french players to get game time at the higher level : tighthead and fly-half are some areas where there is a clear deficit of quality french players as you need time for that and often it is easier to buy an experienced foreigner so the young home grown prospects will have to stay longer playing at lower level. for that reason you will not see a lot of 20 year old getting to play for france...
Another side effect of the quota pushing pro teams to have at least 50% of France grown players (jiffs) is an increase of the value of quality french players (vs the same foreigner in terms of skills) so the "poorer" teams (agen, brive, ubb )are ending up fielding teams with mostly SH players (in another post someone mentionned agen were fielding 14 foreigners with a french 9 at some point). reminds me of football in England where any good English player transfer is at a big premium (Caroll to Liverpool for instance).

I know big spenders Toulon (do they still have a budget a bit less than that of Toulouse?) have a massive squad brimming with class players but how many french players do they have? Do they make the starting team?

Is it bad for younger players to play in Div 2 or amlin. Also do the top14 or Aviva have an u20s league or anything like that. Most Pro12 players that are young play in the club sides so play against grown men who may not have as much skill but have thw size a guile to challange them.

That is why I think you see Pro12 bring through more youngsters.

In soccer you see plenty of younger people learning in the lower divisions.

Think what an u20 playing in div 2 would learn up against the seasoned eastern europeans. That would stand them in good stead.

As we are discussing on another tread Exeter have alot of their Chamionship players playing in the prem so is Div 1 and div2 much different

viewtothegym wrote:As we are told, but Rome in all its glory forgot that all the roads also lead out of Rome.
The top14 is also in the same situation,
It is the elephant in the room.
The financial bubble is going to burst in France and the purse strings will be tightened and the International team will suffer from this influx of overseas players, Then the knives will be out .

Let them have their moment because we all will be laughing at them in a few seasons when everyone is fleeing

Someone has just learnt about metaphors and is keen to try them out.

Unless all this stuff is literally going to happen. Could be messy for the elephant.

As with all things, in the 80s there was a meat seller selling 1m a week.

Os are in trouble becasue of their rich man being construction enough said.

Benetton clothes will never have any problems if anything clothes go up as they are a cheap fix.

How did the guy i bath make his money and if we need it its recession proof.

Also someone did a post on clubs debth. They only seem to but in 3-4m a year not exactly breaking the bank.

Morgannwg wrote:I know big spenders Toulon (do they still have a budget a bit less than that of Toulouse?) have a massive squad brimming with class players but how many french players do they have? Do they make the starting team?

Toulon usually starts 6-8 french players which is the average in the top 14. next year they wont be too bad as they will also have mermoz and michalak on top of young prospect Lapeyre, experienced Tillous-Bordes, Palisson , bastaraud and a couple of local forwards (gunther, bruno...)

Toulouse is still way ahead of the competition when it comes to budget .
below are some estimated numbers for this season but they dont include late transfers such as botha, shaw etc...
1. Stade Toulousain 33,1M€ (+3,57M€ vs previous season)
2. ASM Clermont 24,1M€ (+3,15M€)
3. Racing-Métro 22,4M€ (+3,46M€)
4. Stade Français 21,3M€ (+2,02M€)
5. RC Toulon 19,7M€ (+0,65M€)
6. Aviron Bayonnais 17,2M€ (+1,45M€)
6. MHRC Montpellier 17,2M€ (+2,19M€)
8. Biarritz Olympique 16,6M€ (+1,21M€)
9. USAP 15,3M€ (+1,22M€)
10. Castres Olympique 15,1M€ (+1,16M€)
11. LOU 14,8M€
12. CA Brive 13,7M€(-0,35M€)
13. SU Agen 11,9M€ (+ 2,09M€)
14. UBB - Bordeaux-Bègles 8,7M€

It's interesting the different way people look at things.

One way is that the French league drafts in a number of foreign players and dilutes their own talent to their national harm.

The other is that it has more nationally qualified players in it's premier league than any other country and they are playing week in week out against some of the best players from around the world.


Do the French teams all really have that many imports, or are there just a select few that are trying to buy success against the established sides that are predominantly French?

Whatever, it certainly seems to me that the club comes first to the French supporter and they don't really care. And as long as that support is there (and I don't see it disappearing) the clubs will be solvent and carry on.

I don't necessarily agree with the imports, but I do respect their club first mentality. Clubs are the daily bread of true rugby supporters.

from wiki the top14 gets about 2500 more people per game

that is 2500 by €25 by 11 home games = €687500

plus 15000 by €25 by 2 ( the two extra games) = €750000

So just by looking at attenances they would get about 1.4m more then the aviva each year.

Not alot in what they spend but still some.

There is also a big debate as to what does budgets are for. If you take Stade Toulousain with 60 players they would have to pay them €550k per person. If that was the case the walesh players are getting rubbish wages when they move

If that is there budget for all costs then what was the expenses for the English or Rabo teams for the same period. Alot more then 4.2m or what ever is bandied about