"Exceptional circumstances"- great news!

Q.Stuart, do you decide what amounts to "exceptional circumstances"
A Pretty much yes. Steffon Armitage is an example of that.

6.Robshaw
7.Armitage
8.Morgan

Devastating combination. Throw Haskell into the mix as well.

OUCH!

Boo Yaa! This bloke definitely reads 606v2!

Makes perfect sense. You make a rule to create boundaries, but then you bend it when necessary.

Armitage is on fire. Unleash him!

Well done Stu!

I must be the only one, but I don't think Armitage is good enough at International level. The T14 games I've seen he's looked good enough, but that's with a monster pack. On backfoot ball he's has little impact and against the Boks we're going to be getting plenty of backfoot ball.

Armitage has been tried and failed with England. I'd far rather they keep Robshaw at 7 and use one of Dowson, Johnson, Fearns & Haskell at 6.

HongKongCherry wrote:I must be the only one, but I don't think Armitage is good enough at International level. The T14 games I've seen he's looked good enough, but that's with a monster pack. On backfoot ball he's has little impact and against the Boks we're going to be getting plenty of backfoot ball.

Not the only one. I'll be your wingman on this one.

When Armitage was last tried he was on fire and had been dominating Premiership rugby. However the style he plays he wasn't big enough, quick enough or strong enough to do the same to international teams.

He could have developed I suppose.

Don't see how you can say Armitage isn't int class, but are confident that Dowson, Johnson and Fearns will be so much better?

HongKongCherry wrote:I must be the only one, but I don't think Armitage is good enough at International level. The T14 games I've seen he's looked good enough, but that's with a monster pack. On backfoot ball he's has little impact and against the Boks we're going to be getting plenty of backfoot ball.

Armitage has been tried and failed with England. I'd far rather they keep Robshaw at 7 and use one of Dowson, Johnson, Fearns & Haskell at 6.

Interesting point but i say....... sod that for a game of soldiers!

Give him another chance for goodnesssakes man. He is young and he is pulling up trees. Plenty of players come again on their second outing and claim the shirt. He cant help the fact that he happens to play with a large pack. The only way to find out is to play him or at least check him out in training!

He is a specialist type 7. We dont have many/any of those! Get him on the damned plane!

P.s i would not be upset to see

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8 Morgan

As far as I know only NZ's foreign policy can't be bent even in "exceptional circumstances". The rules that Wales, and more recently England, have laid down only states that home-based players will tend to be favoured, not dead certs if anyone overseas is playing better.

Bathite wrote:Don't see how you can say Armitage isn't int class, but are confident that Dowson, Johnson and Fearns will be so much better?

preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-cissely! +1

He is pulling up trees. Give him a goddamed chance.

Knowsit17 wrote:As far as I know only NZ's foreign policy can't be bent even in "exceptional circumstances". The rules that Wales, and more recently England, have laid down only states that home-based players will tend to be favoured, not dead certs if anyone overseas is playing better.

Which is exactly as it should be. Otherwise, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face. Armitage has had to really stand out to be noticed and I think he should be rewarded for that.

I have to say that when I have seen S.Armitage on ESPN he has looked good.

He is a an out an out 7 and the best 7 that England has so why not pick him.

I'm not sure he would be available for the first test though due to top 14 commitments.

Young guns plus maybe Dowson or Waldrum in the midweekers (Launchbury on the bench covering lock and back row?) and this back row looks good for the main team- Robshaw, Armitage (if he comes he has to start) Morgan and Haskell on the bench. I like that. Rather keep the Croft-Robshaw combo as it grew together so much in the 6N but Nick Easter's attempt to wipe out every other backrow player so that Lancaster has to pick him ruined that

England's first test is 9th June. The AP final is 26th May, so I imagine they'll be heading out the week that follows.

The Top 14 playoffs are 26th May & 2nd June, with the final on the 9th. Toulon are 3rd, so look guaranteed a home game on the 26th (3rd v 6th & 4th v 5th), which should see them play again on the 2nd against one of the top seeds (Toulouse & Clermont). I'd imagine most would bet against them winning that and getting to the final.

Even if Armitage makes it out before the first test he'll be joining training late, particularly as the majority of players will have been training since a week or two before the Barbarians game on 27th May (AP playoffs are 2 weeks before the final, 12th May). And as he hasn't trained with the current squad under the new coaches before, I doubt he would get a starting spot on the 9th. He could well start the 2nd test, but that very much depends on the performance of the players who start against the Barbarians and on the 9th.

neil back was told he was too small and not good enough but matured into a legend.maybe armitage will do the same.test rugby can take time to adjust to,armitage only got 5 caps,4 of them off the bench in an unsettled team.he deserves another chance.

neil back was told he was too small and not good enough but matured into a legend.maybe armitage will do the same.test rugby can take time to adjust to,armitage only got 5 caps,4 of them off the bench in an unsettled team.he deserves another chance.

neil back was told he was too small and not good enough but matured into a legend.maybe armitage will do the same.test rugby can take time to adjust to,armitage only got 5 caps,4 of them off the bench in an unsettled team.he deserves another chance.

Those caps were the best part of 3 years ago as well. Most players come a long way in that sort of time frame, particularly between the ages of 23 & 26.

I'm all for it, he can join Allen and Brown in the 2nd chance brigade

exactly.i also think he thought he was in his brothers shadow at the time,who was on fire for england.

exactly.i also think he thought he was in his brothers shadow at the time,who was on fire for england.

Bathite wrote:Don't see how you can say Armitage isn't int class, but are confident that Dowson, Johnson and Fearns will be so much better?

I'm not. I feel Robshaw will do a better job at 7, then it's up to one of those 3 to fill the 6 spot. They may prove to be less effective, but they deserve a chance. We've seen what Armitage can do and he can't do it at international level. I think in general it's just a case of absence makes the heart grow fonder

Triangulation wrote:

He is pulling up trees. Give him a goddamed chance.

I think that's going over the top somewhat and buying into the journalistic hype.

England desperately need a proper 7 and I would love Armitage to prove me wrong, but I've seen quite a few games of his this season and I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise. Happy to stand corrected though

If Armitage wants to play for England he should do what players like Palmer, Haskell, Cipriani and Geraghty have done and choose to come home. Lancaster has now send some seriously mixed messages when he essentially says "I'll pick players who are in good form, no matter where they are". Does he want an exedus?

For me this is Lancaster's first significant error, muddying the waters and potentially hacking off a number of players.

I also have to say I don't see Armitage as an international 7. He's played well at club level before and failed to translate it to international level. There are plenty of other options.

I feel it is unfair to say that Armitage can't cut it at International level- players change and he is on form. The key thing is that it does completely undermine our selection policy as there are some talented young 7s (and 6s as Robshaw seems to be able to play the position in the way that suits our game?) in England playing well who are just as proven as Armitage at International level. But if he does come, he needs to start. You can't take a player as an exceptional circumstance and then put them in the midweek team, by definition almost

Is Armitage a "natural" 7 though? From what I have seen of him (mostly highlights of his games for Toulon) he seems like a pretty class ball carrier. No idea what he is like at the breakdown, all I have really seen of him is big runs through traffic.

His ability at the breakdown has historically been one of if not his best attributes, he's rapid to the contact area and limpetlike over the ball.

johnpartle wrote:His ability at the breakdown has historically been one of if not his best attributes, he's rapid to the contact area and limpetlike over the ball.

SA don't stand a chance then! One of those little buggers broke my Swiss pen knife once, after it decided to attach itself onto my surfboard.

DaveM wrote:If Armitage wants to play for England he should do what players like Palmer, Haskell, Cipriani and Geraghty have done and choose to come home. Lancaster has now send some seriously mixed messages when he essentially says "I'll pick players who are in good form, no matter where they are". Does he want an exedus?

For me this is Lancaster's first significant error, muddying the waters and potentially hacking off a number of players.

I also have to say I don't see Armitage as an international 7. He's played well at club level before and failed to translate it to international level. There are plenty of other options.

Before anyone wades in on that front, why don't you wait and see what squad is actually picked. He merely suggested, under some intense questioning, that Armitage would be looked at and acknowledged that he'd been playing well. I have a sneaking suspicion he won't be selected to tour, due to his lack of ability to do much training pre tour.

I also agree with a few others that he's not looked particularly special when given a chance internationally and frankly i'd rather see Fearns, Wallace Gibson etc.. given a go ahead of him.

I think it can take time to build a really good international class 7 - and its also a position which can, as it were, blow hot and cold depending on the opposition and type of game being played. We havent used a proper 7 for a while and in some ways are not set up to make the most of one.

He wasnt impressive when he played for England before, but that was probably for a bunch of reasons. If he is playing as well as all the reports say he is then he deserves another chance.

Best to pick the form players. S.Armitage is the form 7 by some margin. He deserves another shot at international glory.

He might have not been successful the first time but maybe he's improved and learnt the errors of his ways.

People say let's pick Gibson,Wallace,Fearns etc but what have they done? Very little so far in my opinion.

They are young they'll get their chances.

I recommend bringing one along but let's not rule out fat Armitage.

For those that say hes looked pretty poor in his early caps.
I would say that when he has been picked, its always been in a development role in a ramshackle team 'B' side playing against Oz baabaa's or the regular baabaa's at twickenham or come on as late replacement in matches.
His caps were back in 2009. I've seen a fair few Toulon matches recently and I think that he needs to be in the England cap.
I would refer to his try against Stade in the Amlin semi final for those that say he lacks pace.
And to his try against NZ Maori - OK, so its not amazing but the highlights are fantastic -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q_Gu3N10hY

On an aside - those highlights still make me wonder why Strettle is in the EPS and how the hell did Tait get so many england caps.

Picking him whilst he's still at Toulon does seem a little unprincipaled though

I'd say he is following the rules...'exceptional circumstances' well england do not have an international 7 in the premiership (yet) and against the best you need a fetcher.....wood and robshaw could have filled the role suitably but wood and croft are tommy tucked, meaning robshaw slots in at 6 and armitage has to be picked he has really put his hand up..if saully, wallace et al start getting 80 minutes and performing at AP level then steffan falls down the list as he is in france but at this point you really have to pick him.

Exceptional circumstances was clearly never meant to include anyone who was a slightly different option from what we already had - the policy was designed to keep players with international aspirations in England, sendig a clear and strong signal, whilst allowing players who had already signed deals a get out if they indicated they would be heading home. Quite a few players have taken it to mean that and have headed back for a chance under the new England coaching team, only to find that Lancaster has effectively abolished the policy.

Is Armitage a better option than Wood, Haskell or Robshaw at 7? I'd say that's far from proven. If we are just going to call him up until the two missing players are available, or until Gibson, Fearns, Wallace or Kvesic makes a strong case then it seems even more pointless.

I agree it is unlikely he'll be picked in practice due to the Top 14 continuing into the start of the tour, but Lancaster has muddied the waters now in a way he might not find helpful. After-all, how can he ask any player not to go and play abroad now?

People have always made more of this that there was. There whole thing was about informing the players that if they were outside the EPS system they would have to be much better than the other options.

I don't understand why the fact he's suggested he's considering Armitage is suddenly a big deal when he had already selected a non-EPS as his 1st choice 8

Assuming Croft, Wood, Haskell are all unavilable.

What are the back row options:

6: Launchbury, Johnson
6 or 7: Robshaw, Fearns, Gibson
7: Kvesic, Wallace, Seymour (Armitage)
8: Morgan, Fearns

I beleive we havew some talent...but by god its raw, and we'll be going to South Africa with a VERY inexperienced back row.


PS I think its seriously unfair to judge Armitage on his previuous performances as they were in a team that didnt know its arris from its elbow...and he was also a bench player coming on.

we have no Wood, and no croft. Two of the contenders for the captaincy at the start of the year. Also two of the best english flankers around.
Now we have no Haskell, we also have no Clarke, a young flanker who would have got his chance on this tour. Our resources are stretched, Lets bring in Armitage and let the other young 7's gibson, fearns etc have a proper pre season.

other young 7's gibson, fearns etc have a proper pre season.

The thing is whilst Fearns has been playing there...i dont see him as a long term 7...

Robshaw devestating??? Really?!

And Haskell is hardly proving a world beater. His very very slow start in super rugby has now leveled to a distinct average!

Ahhh most see him as an 8, is he really physical enough to play there at international level?
I haven't seen Haskell's games, but theres so many diffferent opinions on Haskell's jaunt in the S15?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Robshaw devestating??? Really?!

And Haskell is hardly proving a world beater. His very very slow start in super rugby has now leveled to a distinct average!

I have heard completely different from basically every NZ fan asked about him. Have you really watched him play?

Well thats the question Flanker.

Hes listed at around 6'3 and about 17.5 - 18 stone...

He's got to get ahead of Morgan now...who certainly IS physical enough...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Robshaw devestating??? Really?!

And Haskell is hardly proving a world beater. His very very slow start in super rugby has now leveled to a distinct average!

I have heard completely different from basically every NZ fan asked about him. Have you really watched him play?

Yeah i agree Rory...ive heard some good reports...

Hmmm sounds physical enough, and I know he's played there throughout the age groups.
I admit I haven't watched many bath games, but he's been pushed into 7 due to the injuries to their flankers. Moody's retirement and Louw has been injured hasn't he?

In the games I've seen for Bath he's carried like an 8. But he has the groundwork of a flanker. The only issue for me is the control at the scrum. Not sure if he's got it with an unstable scrum

EDIT: Certainly good enough for a bench option as he covers all positions and will be better in the scrum than an out and out flanker.

Guys the good reports you are hearing from Haskell must be sarcasm.

When he started I didn't even know he'd made the move, but he stood out in his first game for being a rag doll. He was well off the pace and wasn't competing at all. His few minute sub appearances were awfull.

He did get stronger and fitter, and started to compete better, but he is getting seriously beaten up around the breakdown, his carrying is ineffectuall, and defence a mess. I will say he's getting around the park pretty well mind.

It doesn't help when playing alomgside someone of the quality of Thompston mind, he really stands head and shoulders above!

Ah well. You know what they say

Never trust a kiwi about rugby

PS I actually quite like Haskell, I have nothing against him, but he is not playing well. Strangely he is starting regularly now though, maybe the powers are trying to play him into form because of his training?

well he had been playing in Japan, bit of a shock and change in playing style.

Thats how I saw it originally. Maybe it's taking a lot longer to adjust than I am giving credit for, like I said he's starting games now.