Munster v Ulster - Sat 5th May, Thomond Park (kick off 7.30pm)

Ulster match day squad to face Munster, Saturday 5th May 2012, Thomond Park (kick-off 7.30pm)
(15-9): A D'Arcy; A Trimble, N Spence, I Whitten, C Cochrane; P Jackson, P Marshall;
(1-8): P McAllister, N Brady (c), D Fitzpatrick, L Stevenson, D Tuohy, I Henderson, W Faloon, R Diack;
Replacements (16-23): N Annett, C Black, T Court, M McComish, A Birch, B McIlroy, I Humphreys, C Gilroy

Munster team announced.

01 Wian du Preez
02 Mike Sherry
04 BJ Botha
04 Mick O'Driscoll
05 Paul O'Connell (c)
06 Donnacha Ryan
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Conor Murray
10 Ian Keatley
11 Simon Zebo
12 Lifeimi Mafi
13 Ivan Dineen
14 Johne Murphy
15 Felix Jones

Subs: Varley, Kilcoyne, Archer, O'Callaghan, Butler, O'Leary, Deasy, Earls

I read earlier that Muller, Pienaar and Ferris were carrying knocks. This is one game where we DO NOT take any chances. Muller should travel, but only as a babysitter and Pienaar should just stay at home.

Oh, and is the absence of Luke Marshall significant.

Geoff, see what you can find out about him please.

Anyone know who Blane McIlroy is? Not a name I'm familiar with.

Clive he is the Academy scrum half. Don't know a lot about him but he has played some underage stuff.
I'm sure some of the others will know a bit about him.

Geoff mentioned on another thread that they had wrote off this season for him rava.

Mcallister, Brady, Fitzpatrick, Henderson, Stevenson, McComish, birch, Diack, marshall, Humphreys, gaston, whitten, spence, Allen, D'arcy

Could be something like that.

McIlroy is a number 9 . Unimpressed by what I have seen of him

Luke Marshall is considered behind the curve re fitness after his injury.
Basically they have written him off for this year and he will be trained hard during the summer.

McIlroy is a young scrum half.
Shown nothing yet to suggest he is better than Porter, if anything the reverse.

I see Barker is stilll 'injured' .
Having said that a whisper that he may be eating humble pie.
I cant see him and McComb in the squad next year and I fully expect Henderson to pass the one who is left, in the pecking order, by the end of next season.

Certain guys shouldn't be involved. Johann, Ruan etc. Other senior players could come off the bench. Just a lot of rotation necessary.

I'd pick;

1. Paddy McAllister
2. Nigel Brady
3. Declan Fitzpatrick
4. Lewis Stevenson
5. Dan Tuohy
6. Mike McComish
7. Ali Birch
8. Robbie Diack
9. Paul Marshall
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Stefan Terblanche
12. Ian Whitten
13. Nevin Spence
14. Craig Gilroy
15. Adam D'Arcy

16. Niall Annett 17. Callum Black 18. Adam Macklin 19. Ian Henderson 20. Pedrie Wannenburg 21. Ian Porter 22. Paddy Wallace 23. Andrew Trimble

I don't really see Faloon or Humphreys offering much to this team at present.

Would consider picking Ian Henderson at 6 for this one actually.

Any ore word on our NIQ back rower? Munster look really short in this area too with Wally retiring.

Notch wrote:Would consider picking Ian Henderson at 6 for this one actually.

Henderson would probably play 8 if he is considered in the backrow. That is where he played in school. Not sure he ever played 6.

Blane McIlroy played for the U20s last year didn't he? Alongside Paddy Jackson.

Standulstermen wrote:Any ore word on our NIQ back rower? Munster look really short in this area too with Wally retiring.

Munster will have Leamy returning don't forget, who will add a lot to their depth. Leamy, Coughlan, O'Mahony, O'Donnell, Ronan, O'Callaghan, Butler, Ryan.. I think they are fine for options in the back row. They have options in the academy too as far as I know.

Is leamy a cert to come back. This Wallace retirement can't be that old given that he played in the QF. Butler, POM, O'Callaghan are all young (very good but still young) and Coughlan and leamy don't have long left. Roman is still knocking about fair enough and o'donnell didn't do much in the QF. Looks ok for pro 12 but maybe not HEC.

Are munster fans worried about the backrow (despite the promising youngsters) or am I reading to much into one retirement

I hope someone at Ulster addresses how poor we have been under the high ball. Surely it can't be somehow tactical? But for the past while its seemed that more often than not Ulster havn't even really been challenging in the air. And we've allowed attacking teams to regather from their up n unders far too often.

Anyone else noticed this?

Need to get some GAA spelers in Clive.

Standulstermen wrote:Is leamy a cert to come back. This Wallace retirement can't be that old given that he played in the QF. Butler, POM, O'Callaghan are all young (very good but still young) and Coughlan and leamy don't have long left. Roman is still knocking about fair enough and o'donnell didn't do much in the QF. Looks ok for pro 12 but maybe not HEC.

Are munster fans worried about the backrow (despite the promising youngsters) or am I reading to much into one retirement

I think it was Sin (maybe stag) who told me Leamy will be returning next season. Not sure how he will get on, but whoever it was that told me seemed very optimistic that he will be better than he has been recently. I think O'Donnell has some potential honestly. Put in a huge defensive shift against us in the QF, and has played well since then.

Standulstermen wrote:Is leamy a cert to come back. This Wallace retirement can't be that old given that he played in the QF. Butler, POM, O'Callaghan are all young (very good but still young) and Coughlan and leamy don't have long left. Roman is still knocking about fair enough and o'donnell didn't do much in the QF. Looks ok for pro 12 but maybe not HEC.

Are munster fans worried about the backrow (despite the promising youngsters) or am I reading to much into one retirement

Stand,

Its a fair question. Personally I think Denis Leamy will have a very good 2012-2013. I really do. His injury was not enforced. He had been carrying a knock for a long time and decided to get it addressed with surgery. As I understand it, two major factors in his decision were that he was a bench player for Musnter and no longer going to get a place in the Ireland team. To me he looked very good in the short cameos in early the Heineken Cup pool stages but not doing enough to start. He isn't that old - only 29/30 and I think he could be quite a good player for us next season as he comes back in without the whole country badmouthing him and pressure gone. He isn't playing to hold onto an Irish shirt and I think we'll see more of the mad dog Leamy of old.

Overall, I expect that James Coughlan who had a very good season could end up losing out. We have a few raw promising ones but what I expect to see is something along the lines of:

06 Denis Leamy
07 Niall Ronan
08 Peter O'Mahony

which I think is an unglamourous yet effective backrow. The bench is a complete lottery though you'd expect that Tommy O'Donnell or James Coughlan will be on the bench. I would expect that our inexperienced trio of:

06 Dave O'Callaghan
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Paddy Butler

will all get good game time in the Rabo Direct Pro 12 also. Overall I think its all quite promising.

A massive worry for me - my biggest worry about Munster is our flyhalf. O'Gara isn't playing well IMO and I have my doubts about Keatley. Maybe JJ Hanrahan who I always thought was a 12 will find his way there next year like Paddy Jackson did this time.

I'm pleased to hear leamy should be back grand. Bit surprised to see you have POM at 8 as I didn't think he was big enough to play there or at least that he was a natural there. Stacks of talent mind you. Hope we see paddy butler feature a fair bit. Like the cut of his jib.

Will Ronan be able to replicate his form this season? I think ulster are in a similar position albeit the inclusion of ferris in our first XV is a massive plus. Beyond that the depth isn't there and we will rely on getting a good NIQ in.

Makes you sick when you consider Leinsters depth

He is the same size as Read stand, who I would say is without a doubt the best 8 in the world right now. O'Mahony is without a doubt a natural 8, his best games for Munster have all been at 8. He is exceptional at carrying ball through heavy traffic.

Ulster are definitely the weakest in the back row compared to Leinster and Munster. I really hope the likes of Birch lives up to the potential, and that Diack comes back to his old form. Excited to hear who the NIQ we sign is also.

There is no way POM is the same weight as Kieran read Rory,

Stats are misleading. The sky stats on Saturday had Faloon heavier and taller than Wannenburg iirc.

Whilst our depth may not be as good I think our first choice backrow is better than munster and well, we have to wait and see about Leinster.

Stand, it will come again. Regarding O'Mahony at 8 its where he will fit in best. Same with Leamy, same with Ronan. However most of the Munster backrows are versatile and will see gametime in several positions.

Regarding Leinsters strenght in depth its just cyclical. Munster had it at one point. At one stage we had Jerry Flannery and Frankie Sheahan at Munster meanwhile we sent Sean Cronin to Connacht and John Fogarty to Leinster.
We had Peter Stringer and Tomas O'Leary and sent Eoin Reddan away to Wasps.
We had John Hayes and Tony Buckley and sent Mike Ross over to England.
We had O'Connell and O'Callaghan and Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha Ryan. We had Foley, Leamy, Quinlan and Wallace.

Anyone who is winning multiple ERC titles like us, Tigers, Toulouse etc used to be or Leinster are now will have that kind of depth.

It may seem hard to believe but there will come a time when Leinsters sun will set.

Yeah Stand, its true. And McLoughlin, Jennings, Ryan, Ruddock, Auva'a, SOB and Heaslip, are signed-up for another 2/3 years.

Munster have always produced great backrowers. Leamy, Ronan and POM, are good enough to take on either one of our units, as it stands. And there will be more coming through. O Donnell looks good for one. They breed them down there.

red_stag wrote:Stand, it will come again. Regarding O'Mahony at 8 its where he will fit in best. Same with Leamy, same with Ronan. However most of the Munster backrows are versatile and will see gametime in several positions.

Regarding Leinsters strenght in depth its just cyclical. Munster had it at one point. At one stage we had Jerry Flannery and Frankie Sheahan at Munster meanwhile we sent Sean Cronin to Connacht and John Fogarty to Leinster.
We had Peter Stringer and Tomas O'Leary and sent Eoin Reddan away to Wasps.
We had John Hayes and Tony Buckley and sent Mike Ross over to England.
We had O'Connell and O'Callaghan and Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha Ryan. We had Foley, Leamy, Quinlan and Wallace.

Anyone who is winning multiple ERC titles like us, Tigers, Toulouse etc used to be or Leinster are now will have that kind of depth.

It may seem hard to believe but there will come a time when Leinsters sun will set.

For sure Stag it's the way it goes. I reckon we'll have eased-off by 2020.

Standulstermen wrote:There is no way POM is the same weight as Kieran read Rory,

Stats are misleading. The sky stats on Saturday had Faloon heavier and taller than Wannenburg iirc.

Whilst our depth may not be as good I think our first choice backrow is better than munster and well, we have to wait and see about Leinster.

The Ulster website stats are a mess. Faloon who was previously listed at 6 foot is now 6 foot 3 and heavier than any of our backrow options. Plus Spence who was once 6 foot or more, has shrunk to 5 foot 10. I would assume that Sky has got their stats off the website.

Kieran Read is 105kg, and isn't really a big guy. He is much more rangy and athletic, and is tall at 6 foot 4. O'Mahony is the same weight (and has bulked up over the season) and he is an inch smaller than Read. He was listed as 98kg at the beginning of the season.

Gibbo,

2020 is actually a very accurate guesstimate I would say. Lions tours and RWCs can wreak havoc with teams in terms of player rest and fatigue.

What is also important to bear in mind is that players can get itchy feet. Rob Kearney and Jonny Sexton are 25/26 years old and poised to win their 3rd ERC trophy with Leinster.

I can see an element of "been there, done there" creeping into Leinster in the future and possibly some key men looking at going abroad for a new challenge and higher wages in the future.

Keiran Reid is a big bloke, I recall him running through Ferris a few seasons ago, much bigger and more developed and powerful than O'Mahoney currently.

I do agree that O'Mahoney looks the part at 8 though and he'll continue to get stronger physically as he develops.

I honestly don't think he looks any bigger than O'Mahony. Watching him for the crusaders recently, he is of a very similar build; tall and athletic. He is by no means that big for an 8. He is similar to Harinordoquy with that dynamic running style.

red_stag wrote:Gibbo,

2020 is actually a very accurate guesstimate I would say. Lions tours and RWCs can wreak havoc with teams in terms of player rest and fatigue.

What is also important to bear in mind is that players can get itchy feet. Rob Kearney and Jonny Sexton are 25/26 years old and poised to win their 3rd ERC trophy with Leinster.

I can see an element of "been there, done there" creeping into Leinster in the future and possibly some key men looking at going abroad for a new challenge and higher wages in the future.

I agree. It will come. I see Sexton, Kearney and Heaslip moving, when their current contracts expire. And I wouldnt blame them, if they do try to secure financial security for their families. Its a short sporting life (sometimes cruelly so) and they have to know and use their worth, in European/Global rugby to the max.

Without wanting to name drop Gibbo I know that it is currently happening. I know of four Irish international players in their mid 20s who have seriously looked at moving to France but were offered what they felt were better deals by the IRFU.

The IRFU needs to ensure that the central contract system is rewarding our best players not ensuring people like Gordon Darcy are given them.

red_stag wrote:Gibbo,

2020 is actually a very accurate guesstimate I would say. Lions tours and RWCs can wreak havoc with teams in terms of player rest and fatigue.

What is also important to bear in mind is that players can get itchy feet. Rob Kearney and Jonny Sexton are 25/26 years old and poised to win their 3rd ERC trophy with Leinster.

I can see an element of "been there, done there" creeping into Leinster in the future and possibly some key men looking at going abroad for a new challenge and higher wages in the future.

I haven't seen the hunger drop off at all yet though. In fact their desire for medals is total. It's all they care about now. They didn't even celebrate much when they beat Clermont.

A hungrier team always comes along though. You see it in every sport. Barcelona's aura of invincibility has been shattered in the last few weeks. It happened to Munster quickly too. It's why I'm amazed by the consistent success of the All Blacks. How do they keep up the constant hunger to win and win and win? It never eases off. Maybe it's because they always inject new players in, who are driven to live up to the history of the jersey. And those hungry new players are just as good as the decorated stars they're replacing.

Feckless right now I agree 100% with your post. Leinster are a hungry team and most top teams fall from grace in time.

Think how many of the top All Blacks have come up North though over the last 7-8 years. Jonah Lomu, Christian Cullen, Doug Howlett, Tana Umaga, Jerry Collins, Dan Carter, Byron Kelleher, Carl Hayman, Joe Rocokoko, Sitiveni Sivivatu etc all come to mind to name but some.

POM will be required to play a number of games at 7 by the Irish management regardless of what Munster want

geoff998rugby wrote:POM will be required to play a number of games at 7 by the Irish management regardless of what Munster want

I've no problems with that. Let him play right across backrow.

geoff998rugby wrote:POM will be required to play a number of games at 7 by the Irish management regardless of what Munster want

Why though? Our weakness right now is Heaslip. He should be required to play a number of games at 8.

As long as there is competition for places there will be hunger within the squad with new faces pushing through eager to impress and keeping the established players on their toes.

Its when you get a set up like the National squad with no competition you get complacancy and lethargy.

I don't see any sign of Leinster waning any time soon.

I think we can do a clean sweep of Munster here to be honest. May as well finish the rabo with a bang rather than a whymper.

As Popey always says "Never give a sucker an even break".......

No Rodders, realistically I think they are fine for the foreseeable future.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:POM will be required to play a number of games at 7 by the Irish management regardless of what Munster want

Why though? Our weakness right now is Heaslip. He should be required to play a number of games at 8.

We have Roger Wilson now FFS!!

Rava - do you see Wilson getting a shot for Ireland? Have to say I am excited to see how much he really has improved.

Personally I'd like to see more square pegs in square holes instead of these "everymen" like Tom Court, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony, Luke Fitzgerald, Fergus McFadden, Keith Earls.

Versatility crippled the careers of James Hook and Matthew Tait

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rava - do you see Wilson getting a shot for Ireland? Have to say I am excited to see how much he really has improved.

To be honest Rory I don't think he will. I am a big fan of his and I think he has done very well for The Saints over the past few years. Two years ago I thought he should have got a call but didn't. I think its too late for him now barring injuries.

Stag I agree wholeheartedly with you on that one. However until the IRB allow two props on the replacements you are most likely going to have a versatile prop like Court. As for the others, I think over the next two/three years we will see fewer people playing out of position for Ireland.

I certainly hope so Rava.

Court isn't actually versatile though- he's only able to play loosehead.

You might say that now Notch but it isn't long ago that there were calls for him to actually start at tighthead. He is versatile in that he has the capacity to play both. The fact he's sh1te at tighthead should'nt come into it.

red_stag wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Is leamy a cert to come back. This Wallace retirement can't be that old given that he played in the QF. Butler, POM, O'Callaghan are all young (very good but still young) and Coughlan and leamy don't have long left. Roman is still knocking about fair enough and o'donnell didn't do much in the QF. Looks ok for pro 12 but maybe not HEC.

Are munster fans worried about the backrow (despite the promising youngsters) or am I reading to much into one retirement

Stand,

Its a fair question. Personally I think Denis Leamy will have a very good 2012-2013. I really do. His injury was not enforced. He had been carrying a knock for a long time and decided to get it addressed with surgery. As I understand it, two major factors in his decision were that he was a bench player for Musnter and no longer going to get a place in the Ireland team. To me he looked very good in the short cameos in early the Heineken Cup pool stages but not doing enough to start. He isn't that old - only 29/30 and I think he could be quite a good player for us next season as he comes back in without the whole country badmouthing him and pressure gone. He isn't playing to hold onto an Irish shirt and I think we'll see more of the mad dog Leamy of old.

Overall, I expect that James Coughlan who had a very good season could end up losing out. We have a few raw promising ones but what I expect to see is something along the lines of:

06 Denis Leamy
07 Niall Ronan
08 Peter O'Mahony

which I think is an unglamourous yet effective backrow. The bench is a complete lottery though you'd expect that Tommy O'Donnell or James Coughlan will be on the bench. I would expect that our inexperienced trio of:

06 Dave O'Callaghan
07 Tommy O'Donnell
08 Paddy Butler

will all get good game time in the Rabo Direct Pro 12 also. Overall I think its all quite promising.

A massive worry for me - my biggest worry about Munster is our flyhalf. O'Gara isn't playing well IMO and I have my doubts about Keatley. Maybe JJ Hanrahan who I always thought was a 12 will find his way there next year like Paddy Jackson did this time.

I think you can add Leamy to Wallace in terms of retirement. The Examiner is reporting that his hip injury isnt clearing up.

Sorry to hear that about Leamy DOD, I'm not surprised as he's been plagued by recurring injury.

Awesome player from 2006-2008 but injuries robbed him of his prime too early and we've never got to see the best of him.

Really DOD that is horrible news. As you can tell I was very optimistic about his return.

I thought it might be bad regarding leamy. Losing him and Wally in such a short space to time is dreadful.

Standulstermen wrote:I thought it might be bad regarding leamy. Losing him and Wally in such a short space to time is dreadful.

Stand, in 12 months we will have lost John Hayes, Jerry Flannery, Mick O'Driscoll, Alan Quinlan, David Wallace and Denis Leamy.

Thats a serious blow to our pack.