What should the new European competions look like

HC it will either go up or down in number.

I would prefer to see it drop to 16 then increase to 32.

16 teams would be 4 groups of four
4 French
4 English
2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
HC winners and Amlin winners
Each country can only get one more team.

Money would be broken up into two parts (as a peace offering for the French and English clubs)
75% of the TV and prize money would be given out as is. The rest would be according to how the Club/Region does.

Only the top 2 from each group would qualify for the quarters

The best three 3rds would drop down to the Amlin

Amlin would be 20 teams as follows

6 French
6 English
1 Welsh
1 Irish
2 Next Rabo teams
Semi Finalist of the Development League regardless of country

Money done 75/25

Top plus drop down from HC in Quarters

Development League
Only countries that can show real development plans are allowed in.
So the Spain & Portugal league is development.
Russia has a professional league so it would be ok
Georgia and Romania would have to show development maybe in a black sea league or something.
If countries don't put the plans in place they can't enter.
Only Rabo countries with a real plan to add another team can add a team e.g. Italy.
Scotland and Wales would have to show that they will be doing it and can add that extra team so like North Wales.

6 French
6 English
2 Rabo
4 Italians as they will be adding more teams and going it alone or the Rabo Div. 2 but they would need to have real plans
2 Russian
2 Georgian
2 Romanian
2 Spain
2 Portugal
4 others (if none found would go to England and France)

8 groups of 4 winners through to quarter

This I think would work well for the following reasons

1. France and England would be rewarded for having a better and larger professional base (I am Irish)
2. The HC would be much more of a Super 15 standard and so would make the NH stronger
3. Italy and Scotland have a place at the top table and can continue to grow
4. Only countries with real plans to grow rugby on a sustainable level will be rewarded and not countries that show no plans to move into the professional era
5. Clubs will get rewarded for their effort
6. All leagues will have things to play for and there will be and extra incentive to finishing at the top of the Eng. /Fra div 2
7. Scotland, Italy and Wales might actual put plans in place to add their extra team.
8. Weaker countries can progress naturally and not finish dead last as at present

All competitions would be sold as one package in each country, which the TV Company can sell on as they wish.
Breakdown would be
France & England 4+6+6=16 (most likely another 2 due to moving up places in development)
Ireland 2+1+1=4 does not plan to add teams
Wales 2+1+1+1=5 will be adding North/Valley team
Scotland 1+1+1=3
Italy 1+1+4=6 five of these will most likely be in the bottom tier

Posted a something similar on another thread yesterday but it got lost amongst bickering...

I would reduce to a 20 team HC, with places for the top 5 from AP, T14 and Rabo plus winners of HC and Amlin. This leaves 3 places to ensure sufficient representation for each country in the Rabo (minimum 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian - with top 5 plus up to 3 extra places there is no way this is unattainable). Any remaining spare places go to top ranked European sides, but this would be unlikely. If the winners of HC and/or Amlin are already qualified, an additional place goes to next highest team from that country in their domestic league.

Then a 24 team Amlin, every team not qualified for the HC from the AP, T14 and Rabo plays in the Amlin, with 6 spare places for developing nations Georgia, Romania, Spain, Portugal etc.

In the HC it would be nice to have 4 pools of 5 and 2 qualifiers from each, but then you would need an extra 2 weekends for matches, which would be impossible. So it would need to be 5 pools of 4. Then the French suggestion of (5+3) qualifiers works, ensuring healthy competition for top spot in the final weekend but also rewarding consistency. Then the remaining 2 second placed teams drop to the Amlin to make up quarter finals with pool winners from 6 pools of 4 in that competition.

The idea of 2 blocks of 3 matches in group stages is good as it would probably be fairer and challenge squad depth a bit. However the week 3 and 4 home and away head-to-heads we see currently are very exciting, so I can't decide on this issue.

I don't really see how this structure would annoy anyone, apart from those who currently have a free ride into the HC, but even they must accept it isn't fair to force English and French teams to scrap for places while basically guaranteeing them to the big 3 Irish provinces.

Forcing teams to qualify via their league could also toughen up some of the Celtic players, who at the moment face very few high intensity meaningful games each year. I believe this would benefit their national team. It is no coincidence that players who have to scrap in tight games each week in the AP transfer this dogged mentality to the international stage. How often over the last 10 years have England snuck tight games they didn't really deserve to win? And how often have Irish fans complained of their side's lack of killer instinct in close encounters? English players are forced to get into a habit of winning that their Celtic counterparts are not. This must be of benefit in test match rugby.

I think that what annoyes the English and French is that Wales, Scotland and Italy get spots but rarely make it out of the groups or even get second.

It the Rabo as whole did better I think they would be so upset.

Attendance outside of Ire/Eng/Fra are poor so what do they bring.

If the other Rabo teams were big in performance and attendance they might not be so upset

Nice Brendan nice, except your Wumery is so wrong it's scarily ignorant... but thanks for turning up (that can go to you or the English French teams in the HC)

I'm not wumming

The 3 irish get 15k plus for the home HC games and Connacht did well to.

The welsh have been poor as have their attendances.

In the last ten years what has been the percent of Welsh teams making the quarter. Ireland is around 40-50%, England must be at 33-40% and France about the same

I want standards to be rasied which which why I would rather see 16 teams even though it would probably see my munster miss out a couple of times

I'm not sure that's really fair on Wales and Scotland, and I don't think it's the reason for the English and French irritation. Edinburgh reached the semi-final this year; granted they didn't have the toughest group but they did knock out Toulouse in the quarters. Cardiff Blues, the Scarlets and the Ospreys have reached numerous quarter-finals between in recent them and Cardiff were only a penalty shoot-out away from the final in 2009. Obviously the Italian teams need to improve, but Treviso have been respectable in the Rabo so the next step would be a decent HC campaign. They gave Sarries a hard time in the group this year.

The problem the French and English federations have at the moment is, the big Celtic, especially Irish, teams do not really have to earn their places in the HC, and are therefore able to rest top players for use almost exclusively in the HC. Whereas in the AP and T14 the competition is such that teams must field their strongest XV each week in order to qualify, meaning their challenge is handicapped as compared to their Celtic counterparts.

Anything that doesn't allow the realsitic possibility of 3 Irish team qualifiying will be veto'ed by the Irish.

They could easily be 3 of the top seeds next year.

Jeffwinger rather throughing out this 'Irish teams rest there players (more than English)' mantra come over to the French/English threat thread and join next years analysis to establish if there is any substance.

With respect to the likes of Leicester/Saracens and Ulster for example I think you are in for a shock.

Jeff that is why i think teams should be rewarded in part and not just the union.
Geoff Ulster would win the Amlin or leinster would win the HC.

If the HC went the 16 the Amlin would have alot of big teams in it and would be a high standard as so acceptable to play in

geoff998rugby: The suggested format I put forward on this thread and on the English/French threat thread would give a realistic chance of all 3 big Irish teams participating. If any Irish side were to win either European competition then 3 places would be assured. Given their current dominance this seems quite likely. If one of them were to miss out one year then so be it, you can't just automatically qualify every year. If Leinster, Munster or Ulster had to play in the Amlin one year then the strength of that competition improves. And I would say they'd have a strong chance of winning it, therefore qualifying for the HC.

A few years ago it would have been inconceivable for any of Wasps, Stade Francais or Biarritz not to be involved in the HC, but the qualification process in the AP and T14 is such that they are not guaranteed a place.

Why would Ireland accept a situation where they had to win something every year to get what they already have???

Listen to yourselves!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Why would Ireland accept a situation where they had to win something every year to get what they already have???

Listen to yourselves!!!

They obviously wouldn't just accept it straight away, but the negotiations would be ongoing. Streamlining the competition is the only way to keep up the quality, it must be the way forward. And strengthening the Amlin is also imperative. There should be a reduced number of teams from every country, not just from the Rabo. That's the point a lot of the Celtic fans seem to be missing. Currently there are 6 or 7 English and French teams involved. I would reduce this to 5 each. A country cannot continue to have all of it's teams involved. This damages the integrity of both the HC and the Pro12.

Plenty of people are kicking off about English and French 'arrogance' for wanting to maintain some sort of equilibrium, but then demanding 100% of their teams be automatically in the HC every year.

Like I say at the start it will either go up or down, I wnat numbers to go down.

The IRFU would accept it as they would feel they could have a good run in the Amlin and also get connacht up to the second tier which wouls help them.

The IRFU want their players to have higher standards. As a result the national team would be better so why wouldn't the IRFU be happy. Unlike Wales/Eng and France the national team is number one the money from everything else is secondry

And as Jeff says It would make the Rabo stronger which would strenghten teams aswell and Attendances might go up

Jeff

100% wrong mate. Only Scotland and Italy have 100% of their teams included.

England and Frnace are not trying to maintain the equilibrium, they are trying to disrupt it so the Rabo teams don't dominate, which is coming.

And if you want just the highest quality we should all just watch Leinster play CA week in week out for the season!!

What can't happen is for England and France to have so many clubs involved any more. they offer little in terms of quality and they are on the slide.

You say 100% wrong and then say you want to reduce the number of English and French teams, which I have already said is important. Percentage wise all the Celtic nations have a far higher proportion of their teams involved than England or France. Even with any new proposals this would still be the case.

I don't understand this theory that it is an injustice to force teams to qualify on merit rather than be handed their HC place on a silver platter.

I do not agree with any proposal that excludes any nation. I also do not agree with a system where teams can coast through their domestic league and never have to worry about their HC place.

There is not a chance in hell the Irish would accept a solution where a team would have to win one of the two competitions to get a 3rd participant into the HC.

Nadir, no way, you are wasting you time even suggesting it.

We have three of the top teams and if this is supposed to be a competition for the top teams then by any rational measure three Irish teams should have a high % chance of qualifying.

thebluesmancometh the Rabo teams don't dominate though.

It's just the Irish teams who have been doing well recently.

My team dispatches most pro 12 sides anyway as they did this year so there's not too much to fear from the Pro 12.

Jeffwinger I agree with you.

Geoff I don think that the IRFU should demand to have 4 teams as their starting position as they have given more and have no interest in the amlin or of adding new teams so that would be it.

They should say that the IRFU gets twice as many teams as make the Quarter finals and Amlin Semis.

Again the IRFU have the best bargining stance but they will have to trade with the devil and the Rabo

I said 3 not 4

I also did not say 3 should be guaranteed merely that a very good chance exists for the 3rd team to qualify. Our record deserves that.

Anything less and we will use our veto - make no mistake.

Whether or Irish teams are in the Amlin is irrelevant

Geoff you cannot expect to have 3 Irish teams but have 4 English and 4 French sides.

You can't have it all ways. You must make concessions.

But if you guarantee 3 places to Ireland, you have to guarantee 3 to Wales as well. And probably keep 2 Scottish and Italian or they would not be happy. Then the English and French would want to keep all their representation as well. Then we go absolutely nowhere and keep the current bloated competition which gives teams like Leinster and Munster a free pass. Long term this is not viable.

Hypothetically, geoff998, if it were the other way round would you not think it unfair that English teams need not fight for qualification to the HC, while your teams had to scrap for position week in week out, risking injury and fatigue every week to try and qualify for a tournament that provides dramatic improvement in terms of recruitment prospects, finances, support and coverage?

Jeffwinger But Munster and Leinster would need to fight just as hard (or easily if you look at it your way) regardless as both regularly finish close to the top of the Rabo and the HEC, they would also need to do both (as they usually do) while resting their Irish Internationals for a set period of time (the period determined by the IRFU).

beshocked

This season 3 of the 4 semi finalists were Rabo!!!

5 of the 8 1/4 finalists were Rabo!!

This season Rabo has dominated the HC. And the set up suggests that this will grow as teams follow Edinburgh and Blues models.

Infact I'd go as far to say that Irish and Welsh teams generally outply their English and french counterparts last few seasons!

I am not asking for 3 guaranteed place - only 2
I am saying a realistic qualification option for a 3rd place should be open.
I dont accept the Welsh get as amny as the Irish - their record is not comparable.

For what its worth my idea is:

16 team HC - 2 team qualify from a 4 team group. Group winners at home

4 French
4 English
2 Irish
1 Welsh
1 Scottish

In recognition of the pan National nature of the Pro 12 - the next 3 highest league positions to qualify. According to how well the French/English do one of the will get a 5th team.
If the Welsh record becomes better than the Irish through a ranking system then Wales would get 2 guaranteed place and Ireland 1.
Same principal for the Italians getting a guaranteed place instead of Scotland.

Each league gets the same number of guaranteed places, with a concession to the multi-national nature of the Pro12. 7 not 10 guaranteed places in the Pro 12.

Then the Amlin - 8 groups of 4 - only Group winners qualify

6 or 7 English and French sides (taking both leagues down to 11th place)
5 of the Pro12 (the rest)
14 from minor countries.

Expands the game to more minor countries. Involves virtually all other teams in the 3 main leagues

geoff

By your thinking the Welsh national team have justification to opt out of the 6N into a higher level tourny, as the win more than everyone else in recent years!

This thread is losing me, none of these ideas are viable, as we all know the French whinging ideas are not.

For me it's quite simple, link the HC to the 6N, you want out of one and you can be replaced by someone else in both...

geoff998rugby wrote:I am not asking for 3 guaranteed place - only 2
I am saying a realistic qualification option for a 3rd place should be open.
I dont accept the Welsh get as amny as the Irish - their record is not comparable.

For what its worth my idea is:

16 team HC - 2 team qualify from a 4 team group. Group winners at home

4 French
4 English
2 Irish
1 Welsh
1 Scottish

In recognition of the pan National nature of the Pro 12 - the next 3 highest league positions to qualify. According to how well the French/English do one of the will get a 5th team.
If the Welsh record becomes better than the Irish through a ranking system then Wales would get 2 guaranteed place and Ireland 1.
Same principal for the Italians getting a guaranteed place instead of Scotland.

Each league gets the same number of guaranteed places, with a concession to the multi-national nature of the Pro12. 7 not 10 guaranteed places in the Pro 12.

Then the Amlin - 8 groups of 4 - only Group winners qualify

6 or 7 English and French sides (taking both leagues down to 11th place)
5 of the Pro12 (the rest)
14 from minor countries.

Expands the game to more minor countries. Involves virtually all other teams in the 3 main leagues

What about Italian teams - who surely need representation?

Also you'd feel that the WRU would use their veto if their representation reduced by a third and we only got a quarter of our teams representing at the highest level.
You'd feel the Italians would veto for having no teams in the highest level competition
And the Scottish would probably veto over the fact that they could see their representation reduced from 2 guarenteed to a possible 0.

All the while the English/French could lose a possible 1 place

Smirnoff, English clubs are also forced by the RFU to rest England internationals on occasion as part of the EPS agreement. This is not a problem unique to Irish provinces.

Geoff, in my suggested format the top 5 of the Rabo qualify automatically, regardless of what country they're from. So if Munster and Leinster continue to come in the top few places they have nothing to worry about. And if Ulster were to come top 5 they'd be in too. Then if an Irish team wins a European competition you'd have Connaught in the HC as well. There would be nothing stopping any Celtic nation dominating if they deserved to be. However if a team is not good enough to come in the top 5 over the course of a domestic season, why should they have a divine right to an HC place?

I am not disputing the current Irish dominance. It is fully deserved. I do not think many English or French teams, even with a fully rested best XV, could come close to the current Leinster side. What I am saying is that this cannot guarantee indefinite inclusion for these sides.

thebluesmancometh I don't care to be honest. We dispatched the two Pro12 sides in our pool.

I am sure we'll dispatch more next season.

Blues and Edinburgh had soft groups. They won't be so lucky next time.

My team is 5/7 vs Welsh sides. 7/15 vs the French including a 100% record vs Toulouse. 3/9 vs Irish (the losses all vs Munster and Leinster, all wins vs Ulster), 6/6 vs Italy, 2/2 vs Scottish sides.

beshocked

Who is your team?

Blues will be top tier team again next season so they will have a winnable group. PS Metro are a very competitive side, L Irish are poop but then most English sides are.

jeffwinger wrote: However if a team is not good enough to come in the top 5 over the course of a domestic season, why should they have a divine right to an HC place?

The Pro12 is not a domestic competion - that is the whole point

Smirnoffpriest - in order for the Welsh to be down to 1 team they would have have 3 of the bottom 5 in the Pro12.
Pretty unlikely.

Also I am suggesting a 16 team competion not a 24 team one so reductions all round.
Wales want to improve their lot - out do the Irish.

The Pro 12 would still be the best represented league 7 teams as opposed to 4 or 5 for the French and English.
Making the HC more exclusive would make the Amlin more relevant and what I propose would address the complaint that Pro12 teams have nothing to play for

thebluesmancometh wrote:beshocked

Who is your team?

Blues will be top tier team again next season so they will have a winnable group. PS Metro are a very competitive side, L Irish are poop but then most English sides are.

I'll let you work it out. You'll have a tough group if you draw us.

My wish list is Cardiff,Edinburgh,us and Castres.

Geoff you say there needs to a minimum of 2 Irish spots guaranteed. I agree. You say there needs to be realistic opportunities for 3 or more entrants. My suggestion accommodates this. If more than 2 get in the top 5 of the Rabo, or if an Irish team wins either European competition, then you have at least 3 qualifiers. This covers your ''realistic qualification option for a 3rd place should be open'' point. If it were any more 'open' we're getting back to the realms of automatic qualification, which is what I don't want. I really don't think we are very far apart in our general opinions here.

beshocked

To be honest the only thing that worries me from the AP is Northamptons scrum, and Quins continuity play... anything else is just substandard from all but the Italian teams in the Rabo

Any solution will have to give the Pro12 more slots because of its pan national character. I have tried to address this whilst making qualification from the Pro 12 more result dependant. I think I have done that.

So if the Blues played in the AP they'd walk it every year? Not sure about that. At least you'd be forced to play your 'HC team' every week which might improve attendances...

jeffwinger wrote:Smirnoff, English clubs are also forced by the RFU to rest England internationals on occasion as part of the EPS agreement. This is not a problem unique to Irish provinces.

I know all nations have to rest internationals and it's not soley confined to the Irish, but I mentioned it as there seems a belief on these boards that the Irish provinces have a benefit as they rest all their players in the league without worry for where they finish and just concentrate on the HEC. This is disproved as you say because all nations need/have to rest their internationals. And the Irish are generally competing for the Play offs (with usually 2 of the Welsh regions) in the league rather than languishing in the middle.

jeffwinger wrote:Geoff, in my suggested format the top 5 of the Rabo qualify automatically, regardless of what country they're from. So if Munster and Leinster continue to come in the top few places they have nothing to worry about. And if Ulster were to come top 5 they'd be in too. Then if an Irish team wins a European competition you'd have Connaught in the HC as well. There would be nothing stopping any Celtic nation dominating if they deserved to be. However if a team is not good enough to come in the top 5 over the course of a domestic season, why should they have a divine right to an HC place?

But the only reason a team has a define right to a HEC place is because every union HAS to have a define right to a certain number of HEC places - what they do with that number is up to them, not the teams in the league - as I've said I can't see the Italians and Scottish buying in to sharing 1 space between two unions instead of both rightfully being represented in the HEC.

Also what would happen this season if 2 Welsh regions finish in the Top 5 of the Rabo, yet 2 Irish and 1 Scottish also finish in the Top 5, but 2 Irish provinces compete in the Final and one isn't in the Top 5 - are you saying that because they didn't do well enough in the league they don't get the chance to (possibly) defend their title next year - or if they do, then they push a Welsh/Irish region (Scarlets/Munster) out of the HEC despite both having met your criteria and proven they are in the Top 5 in the league?

jeffwinger wrote: am not disputing the current Irish dominance. It is fully deserved. I do not think many English or French teams, even with a fully rested best XV, could come close to the current Leinster side. What I am saying is that this cannot guarantee indefinite inclusion for these sides.

But they aren't guarenteed a place the Irish have 3 spaces for 4 provinces - Leinster have only been in the HEC every year because they've been so good, in much the same way as Leicester have been in the HEC every year because they've been so good, even in the years they've done really bad in the HEC

Once again jeff, you have proved yourself ignorant to all things rugby!!

Maybe if your AP was less competitive the NT would perform better (if we're moving on to pathetic digs)

geoff998rugby wrote:Smirnoffpriest - in order for the Welsh to be down to 1 team they would have have 3 of the bottom 5 in the Pro12.
Pretty unlikely.

Also I am suggesting a 16 team competion not a 24 team one so reductions all round.
Wales want to improve their lot - out do the Irish.

The Pro 12 would still be the best represented league 7 teams as opposed to 4 or 5 for the French and English.
Making the HC more exclusive would make the Amlin more relevant and what I propose would address the complaint that Pro12 teams have nothing to play for

But in your post you said you'd only have 1 Welsh team, 2 Irish, and 1 Scottish team in the HEC?

In reality geoff the Rabo teams are not competing against each other for HC places, why should they?

All unions have the right to be represented, and the Rabo is not a domestic league. It cannot be an entitiy such as the EPL or FFF, it owns more than 3 times more of the HC!

jeffwinger wrote:So if the Blues played in the AP they'd walk it every year? Not sure about that. At least you'd be forced to play your 'HC team' every week which might improve attendances...

I'm confused so are you saying that the English Prem teams don't rest their players and play their best team in the HEC and in the AV every week?


*note I do not think that the Blues, Scarlets or the bottom half of the Rabo would walk the AV - or vice versa.

Jeff beleives the AP clubs play 100% starters every week, even on international days!!

Smirnoff read my whole format at the top of this page. In it I outline where all the places should go, including at least 2 each for Ireland and Wales and 1 each to Scotland and Italy, as well as guaranteed entry to the defending champions and Amlin winners. You seem to be arguing points that I did make in my first post.

I am saying that Premiership teams field their best players a higher proportion of the time, yes.

Bluesman you're becoming tedious. There is no point in trying to discuss a sensible way forward for European competition if your only concern is wildly hyping up your own team and deriding everyone else's.

Well if I was you I would re think, anyone Ive ever spoken to will know I will be the first to criticse the Blues, and have actively boycotted them (until recently )

The difference between you and I? I will criticse when it is needed to and about anyone including the regions, your one eyed and hark on with your cheap shots.

What you don't quite get is Rabo teams are plowed with internationals, much more than AP teams, so they have to rest the players they lose so often to Internationals etc...

thebluesmancometh wrote:beshocked

To be honest the only thing that worries me from the AP is Northamptons scrum, and Quins continuity play... anything else is just substandard from all but the Italian teams in the Rabo

And you accuse other posters of being ignorant of all things rugby.

If only there was a facepalm icon.

Why was that ignorant? Are they not the biggest weapons in their armory?

Ive watched a massive amount of rugby this season, from many leagues and there is no way to defend either of these!!!

ha ha ha just read it properly, maybe the latter part of that sentence is a bit much...

thebluesmancometh wrote:The difference between you and I? I will criticse when it is needed to and about anyone including the regions, your one eyed and hark on with your cheap shots.

I am discussing sensible options for the growth of rugby across the whole continent, as impartially as I can, offering opportunities for all countries to do as well as they deserve to do at any given time. Including Wales. I have made no 'one eyed' comments or 'cheap shots' about any team.

You have offered no suggestions.

Ive offered tons of suggestions if you want to go back and re read the thread mate, I was engaged by yourself when you came in at the last few comments because of your degraiding comments regarding Blues attendances etc...

I have advocated that I want a 32 team tourny, 6 for the 2 big boys, 3 each for the Rabo teams, 2 for HC and Amlin winners and and 6 invitational mainland european representitives!

HEC - 20 Teams (five groups of four) - group winners plus 3 best runners up go through

Top 6 AP
Top 6 French
Top 6 Rabo
Winner of the HEC (if already qualified their league benefits)
Winner of the Amlin (if already qualified their league benefits)

Amlin - 24 teams (6 groups of four) - group winners plus 2 best runners up go through (no filtering down of HEC clubs)

Bottom 6 AP
Bottom 8 French
Bottom 6 Rabo
Less the two that qualify because of the winner entitlement
winner and runner up of the third tier
top 4 Italian teams

Third Tier - 20 teams ( 5 groups of 4) - group winners plus 3 best runners up go through

Other 6 Italian teams
Top 2 Portugese
Top 2 Russian
Top 2 Romanian
Top 2 German
Top 2 Spanish
Top 2 Georgian
Top 1 Belgian
Top 1 Poland

Sam

How many times do you have to be told that the Rabo is not a league like the other two, it is not the same entity.

The 4 nations involved have to be guarentee'd what they have now...