Legacy for sale!

Which fighters have tarnished their legacy the most by continuing on way past their primes?

Roy Jones jr
Evander


And if he continues much longer, Mosely.

And how much do these end of career defeats hurt a legacy in your opinion? Many say it doesn't matter but I think it does. History books and all.

Seanusarrilius wrote:Which fighters have tarnished their legacy the most by continuing on way past their primes?

Roy Jones jr
Evander


And if he continues much longer, Mosely.

Jones. Far better boxer than evander and has fallen further than evander.

Larry Holmes?

From 48-0 with the world at his feet to being put down by Butterbean is quite a fall from grace.

Out of the 3 you have mentioned I'd say Jones jr due to his demise since winning at HW & in the manner he has lost. Holyfield still puts in some decent performances to some extent & Mosely is still seeing the final bell.

Jones for me has tarnished his more, suspect this says more about the division than it does about Evander but Evander has still managed some relatively decent performances in the last few year such as Valuev, Jones has been getting sparked and chased out of the ring by people he would not have used as sparring partners in his day.

Jones for me, because at his peak I think he had further to fall. He was seen as invincable whereas even a prime Holyfield was seen as beatable by his rivals due to the Bowe trilogy and Moorer and then later Lewis. His peak career wasnt impacted as much by fighting on.

Union Cane wrote:Larry Holmes?

From 48-0 with the world at his feet to being put down by Butterbean is quite a fall from grace.

t was a slp wasnt it?

ShahenshahG wrote:

Union Cane wrote:Larry Holmes?

From 48-0 with the world at his feet to being put down by Butterbean is quite a fall from grace.

t was a slp wasnt it?

So was SRL's KD against Dicky Eckland...didn't stop him dining out on it for years though.

Maybe I'm a bad person but I was hoping Shane would get badly beaten up by Alvarez and be forced to retire as then no-one would touch him with a barge pole. Sadly, I see Shane announcing another match-up shortly...no doubt dropping back down to WW to face the likes of Marquez.

ShahenshahG wrote:t was a slp wasnt it?

Yes, and he didn't go down either, but that dilutes my point somewhat.

The referee counted, so it's a knockdown, ergo Holmes was put down by Butterbean.

holmes vs esch:

Having watched it again, definitely not a slip.

No way.

Holyfield is a bigger name worldwide than Jones jr............

So probably him....although to me he's still the same class act...

I don't count anything post Ruiz as meaningful

Historically I dont think later career defeats have mattered to much. Ezzard Charles for instance went to absolute pot shortly after losing to Marciano. Hasnt really impacted his ranking at all. Likewise Duran or Sugar Ray Leonard who fought on for ever and had several failed comebacks respectively.

Agree........Does anybody hold berbick against Ali???????????

Mosely is still in the "making last pay day" territory and May and Pac would have beat him in his pomp IMO. But, Alvarez is his crossroads. Now Alexander wants a piece, and it is not what i want to see.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Agree........Does anybody hold berbick against Ali???????????

LRR did! However you are generally right, if we were to hold it against every fighter who had carried on too long we would be spending a long time rewriting our p4p lists because it is not a particularly exclusive club. However I do think there are instances where it can damage them to a degree and Jones it to a degree one of them, as he has suffered a few knockouts as he has stayed around too long think it has led many to argue he never had a chin and only got away with it during his prime because of his unnatural speed, should say this is not a view I agree with but have seen it floated as an idea and used to infer he was never quite as good as he looked in his prime.

Tia difficult to assess fighters in our times. Boxing News's recently released all time top 100 held RJJ at 36 and EV at 27. While Spinks, who didn't fight on at all is at 38. Not sure I agree with those, but those writers obviously don't feel as if it's affected their legacy.

I agree with RJJ glass chin theory...and believe t enhances his brilliance rather than diminishing it. Going through the whole of your peak without being hit hard enough to expose a questionable chin? A-mazing

I am personally ok with a couple losses at the end of a legends career. For instance, no one really cares about SRL last two. But I do think Holyfields legacy is damaged and RJJ certainly is now that he has been KO'd so badly in a couple fights, with promise of more to come

rowley wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Agree........Does anybody hold berbick against Ali???????????

LRR did! However you are generally right, if we were to hold it against every fighter who had carried on too long we would be spending a long time rewriting our p4p lists because it is not a particularly exclusive club. However I do think there are instances where it can damage them to a degree and Jones it to a degree one of them, as he has suffered a few knockouts as he has stayed around too long think it has led many to argue he never had a chin and only got away with it during his prime because of his unnatural speed, should say this is not a view I agree with but have seen it floated as an idea and used to infer he was never quite as good as he looked in his prime.

I usually put that down to a small but vocal minority of Jones skeptics though. I think its true when his reflexes left him he became half the fighter but it doesnt really matter. His success was heavily built around those attributes. Im sure Langford deteriorated as a fighter when his eyeside began to fail!

I cant really understand how Jones fighting on too long can or should be viewed any differently to the countless other top fighters who have done the same. With Jones I think the issue is more that his light heavyweight reign was high in outstanding performances but not enough high calibre opponents to remove some of the question marks surrounding the extent of his greatness. But I would completely reject the argument that he was somehow exposed later in his career due to those losses.

DAVE667 wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

Union Cane wrote:Larry Holmes?

From 48-0 with the world at his feet to being put down by Butterbean is quite a fall from grace.

t was a slp wasnt it?

So was SRL's KD against Dicky Eckland...didn't stop him dining out on it for years though.

Maybe I'm a bad person but I was hoping Shane would get badly beaten up by Alvarez and be forced to retire as then no-one would touch him with a barge pole. Sadly, I see Shane announcing another match-up shortly...no doubt dropping back down to WW to face the likes of Marquez.

He only got paid $650k for that fight too. What's the point of him carrying on - he used to command a few mill in the past and he actually used to win fights.

DAVE667 wrote:
Maybe I'm a bad person but I was hoping Shane would get badly beaten up by Alvarez and be forced to retire as then no-one would touch him with a barge pole. Sadly, I see Shane announcing another match-up shortly...no doubt dropping back down to WW to face the likes of Marquez.

Didn't Mosley's ex take him to the cleaners and he's desperate for the money these days

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:
Maybe I'm a bad person but I was hoping Shane would get badly beaten up by Alvarez and be forced to retire as then no-one would touch him with a barge pole. Sadly, I see Shane announcing another match-up shortly...no doubt dropping back down to WW to face the likes of Marquez.

Didn't Mosley's ex take him to the cleaners and he's desperate for the money these days

Bad news if thats the case. On the plus side, his new Mrs is smoking hot.

Yeah I remember a Ring article just before he fought Manny that stated he was in a hard time financially following a brutal divorce

http://www.badlefthook.com/2011/7/14/2276261/shane-mosley-divorce-jin-mosley-championship-belts-money

Cheers for the link. Feel sorry for him, he comes across as a decent bloke.

Think people are quick to forget that.....Robbo lost to Fullmer, Pender, the British guy among others near the end of his career....

Maybe it's a time thing (holy is too recent) and in twenty years time we'll recognise Holy for his magnificent career and forget the garbage like we do with Robbo....

Shanes Mrs even got some of his belts. Why the F*** does she need them? He musta been cheatin!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think people are quick to forget that.....Robbo lost to Fullmer, Pender, the British guy among others near the end of his career....

Maybe it's a time thing (holy is too recent) and in twenty years time we'll recognise Holy for his magnificent career and forget the garbage like we do with Robbo....

That's a good point Truss, even Ali went on too long. That gets brushed over. SRL got smashed on his last rematch too. No one mentions that either.

To be honest, this thing about fighters tarnishing their legacies for going on too long is something of a myth.

Even if RJJ went on to be knocked out another 5 times he will always have a better legacy than BHop.

Ezzard Charles, Larry Holmes, Julio Cesear Chavez are examples of boxers that went on too long but they're going to be remembered as greats despite that. People forget Ezzard Charles for example lost to some right bums in his later years but nobody cares now.

To be honest, there are more all-time greats who 'tarnished' their legacies by fighting on for too long than there are who didn't - which suggests to me that most real boxing fans will be more forgiving than you might imagine, and that Jones doesn't need to worry about his standing being diminished all that much in the long run.

I say 'all that much' only because, as Rowley touched upon earlier, the manner of Jones' defeats has been the shocking thing. Calzaghe aside, not many of them have really been valiant, to the wire or admirable efforts, such as Holyfield-Valuev, Whitaker-Trinidad etc. The aforementioned losing tough, competitive decisions is quite a different sight to that of the once-mighty Jones being sprawled all over the canvas by the likes of Johnson, Green and Lebedev.

But as I said, while naturally some of the gloss has been removed, I still think history will be kind to Jones, when all's said and done.

Jones Junior is an interesting case I suppose because of the manner of the losses. However, losses to Green (a decent alphabet champ), Lebedev (robbed against Huck and possibly the best cruiserweight out there) and Johnson/Tarver (former linear champs) is not half as embarassing as people like to make out. The guys he lost to he might have licked in his prime but they were no pushovers.

In 20 years time no-one will be talking about Jones Junior post Ruiz.

Depends largely on who you are losing to and at what point you lose to them.

For instance with Mosley losses to Pacquiao, Mayweather and Alvarez wont effect him in the slightest as there is no guarantee he beats them in the first place and they occurred at a time he had clearly declined.

Holyfield lost to the eastern european trash and Ruiz only after he was well past his best so wont effect him.

The difference with Jones is that there were no real signs of decline before the losses to Tarver and Johnson while the rest will have no bearing but those three losses will effect his standing slightly.

After what fight do you guys think Roy Jones should have retired?

Robbo lost to Turpin and Lamotta in his pomp....

Think people are more likely to look at the victories when summing up....

Let's face it.. if we focused on Hearns-Duran...then Duran would be screwed...

Duran and Robinson have far greater depth to get away with poor losses something that Jones does not in my opinion, he ranks higher than both Mosley and Holyfield but his defeats stop him from being rated even higher.

Surpried no one has mentioned Mike Tyson.

From unstoppable wrecking machine to Danny Williams to WWE hall of fame.

That's a big height to fall from!

That was some 14 years after Douglas destroyed his aura of invincibility which gives him some leeway.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:That was some 14 years after Douglas destroyed his aura of invincibility which gives him some leeway.

You are correct but thats the point surely - his legacy disintegrated over the 14 years by carrying on.

I wouldn't say that is his legacy being effected by past his prime defeats but rather not being as good as people thought.

I think Evander Holyfield is the more tragic case. Roy Jones was never that good to begin with and his losses later in his career reflect that. Case in point the Calzaghe fight. People will argue that he was old and past his best but why was he not fighting these opponents earlier? As I said on another topic, Jones spent his peak years avoiding the best fighters and only fought them when he had nothing to lose.

Holyfield was a terrific fighter although I have never quite forgiven him for robbing Lennox Lewis blind! However the way he dismantled Tyson was one of the finest performances in a boxing ring I have witnessed. Nobody, myself included Im ashamed to admit, gave him a hope in hell of beating Tyson in that but he proved the world wrong not once, but twice. Lennox Lewis had his number of course but theres no shame in that as Lennox was one of the finest of all time.

I think when they both eventually retire Holyfield will be considered the superior fighter rightfully.

Hopkins, Toney and Hill?

How come Holyfield gets away with the Steroid allegations Gordy??

Ghosty, Shah, we seem to have acquired a new WUM in Gordy - just a heads up. His 'views' on Roy Jones will make Coxy's seem almost bearable.

I don't think hes new at all. He navigates around this place easily and says the stuff so ridiculous you have to try and slap some sense into him. I imagine hes one alias of a past six month banned wum's account.

Seanusarrilius wrote:I am personally ok with a couple losses at the end of a legends career. For instance, no one really cares about SRL last two. But I do think Holyfields legacy is damaged and RJJ certainly is now that he has been KO'd so badly in a couple fights, with promise of more to come

Would you rank Holyfield any lower due to carrying on though? Say for arguments sake he had retired after losing to Lewis. Would he rate any higher?

Personally I just tend to primarily assess fighters during their peak years from the time they begin fighting at world level to the time they become past it.

It probably affects Jones far worse because had he retired after Ruiz/Tarver 1 he would be viewed far higher than he is now.

Had Holyfield retired after Lewis 1 or 2 I doubt his position would be drastically different.

In that sense I think Jones legacy has been tarnished more.