Legacy of the Cobra

After having blasted out Bute in devastating fashion back In May, and after having knocked out fronge world level fighter Yusef Mack, i continually end up asking myself "how good is Carl?"

How do you all view him in terms of inside and outside the ring?

How will he finish his career?

Where does he land in the rankings in British fighter history?

And finally, how does he cement his legacy?

I find myself continually crediting him for his level of opposition and bravery but not his wins or actually ability.

It almost as if he is to much of a hard/brave man for people (myself included) to see past that and recognize the genuine decent wins he's had over the years.

Not sure how he cements his legacy, avenging the loss to Kessler would be a start - a fight which I believe at this point Froch would win. For me though I'll always remember him as fearless character that wanted to face and beat the best in his division but just wasn't good enough for the very best (ward). I honestly believe he loses to Ward everytime.

Someone pointed out on the other thread that Froch has been fighting so long at a completely world level that anyone who isn't ward or Kessler is getting mullered. I think that says it all. Froch is a true world class fighter and his legacy will be that he was a great who was pushed into second or third place by other greats. The great in question being ward who has gained that epithet very early in his career on account of how skilled he is.

I think froch will win with a bit to spare against Kessler now. Kesslers not the fight he was and froch seems to be improving. As you say ward probably wins every time but I think as the years go on and ward achieves more in the game it will become even less of a black mark against his name

I think its ridiculous to use the Kessler and Ward defeats as a mark against him. Fighters get beat, it happens. But their legacy is supposed to be based on what they achieved. And froch has achieved enough (for me anyway) to go down as a great. We can talk about his defeats, but I think the manner in which he came back and wiped out 2 undefeated fighter in Abraham and Bute (who was ranked no:1) to become a world champion again makes up for the losses.

Let's throw in the Calzaghe comparison for a second.

If you were about to die and you were given a choice of which fighters career to watch before you died, who would you watch, Joe or Carl's?

And Joe is considered a great supposedly.

For me a loss is a loss, its part of the game. Its how you come back from them that makes a true great.

Bad idea reborn, this will now turn into a calzaghe/froch whos better thread!

Heeeeerrrrreeeesss steffan!!

He was out classed by Ward, against Kessler you got the feeling he let him self down as he looked the better fighter but took his foot off the gas and let Kessler nick rounds from throwing more, but Froch had him hurt a few times in that fight.

I don't see any point in a Ward Rematch and Ward might even stop Froch in a rematch.

With his age fights left must be limited. I really think he needs a Kessler rematch in Nottingham. I think he'd stop Kessler, I'd question what Kessler has left in the tank. I think a Ward rematch is essentail for Karl, he's in boxing to try and be the best in his division, so what if he loses again, at least he'll be able to retire knowing his worth.
There is nothing really for Ward in the rematch, but then there is nothing left for Ward at Super middle. Bute maybe, but that fight is completely tainted by Froch's demolition job.

kessler then cleverly

He is an overrated fighter mainly due to Sky hyping him up non stop but if you follow his career he has lost to the best guys he has fought which tells you something. He is nowhere near the standard of Calzaghe who would outclass him. Lewis and Calzaghe would be the top British fighters and Froch woud be a long way behind those guys.

I agree with most that next year he should aim for the bute rematch(as he is contactualy oblifed), then kessler and ward! In 2014 he could sign of with fighting one of the next generation of brits in and around his weightclass eg groves, clev and degale, all 3 of which could hold a belt of some description by then(and all 3 of which he could/should beat).

I've got serious doubts about Buté taking the rematch, to be honest. A second installment against Kessler should be top of Froch's wish list for the first half of 2013, and I'm extremely confident that he'd win this time out. All you need is a working pair of eyes to see how much Froch has improved from three years ago. I don't particularly think that Kessler has declined as much as others seem to; he's still operating at a good level, perhaps only a shade below where he was when he boxed Calzaghe. It's just that Froch has come on leaps and bounds since 2010.

It's an unfortunate fact for Froch that establishing himself as the top man in a division is something missing from his resumé so far, and with his legacy in mind, a jump up to Light-Heavyweight might offer a solution to that problem. I'll come out and say it - for me, if he steps up to 175 lb now (providing Ward doesn't follow) then he beats the lot of them. Hopkins and Dawson included. Froch is putting his punches together so cleanly now, is jabbing with so much authority compared to two or three years back and is looking so supremely confident when he fights that I genuinely think he'd beat 'Bad Chad' as of now.

Kessler in the first half of 2013 and then a step up to Light-Heavyweight is where I'd like to see Carl go now. Ward will always be just a bridge too far for him, I reckon, but it's not beyond Froch to become the best Light-Heavyweight in the world within the next eighteen months. At the very least, title holders such as Cleverly, Cloud and Shumenov should certainly be dealt with at 175 lb if Froch ventures up.

I think the main question surrounding who he fights next lies with Bute himself.

If he doesn't want the Froch fight, then the contract becomes void and Kessler may well be lined up.

I think Kessler would be the peoples choice as an opponent but for some reason I think thats going to be difficult to put together given the situation the pair of them are in. Bute may want another tune up after not being great in his last one and then Froch has a mandatory potentially against Stevenson.

I have followed Froch since the start of the super six, and have been very impressed by his performances against Mack and Bute. I feel he beats anyone at SMW or LHW with the exception of Ward.

I would like to see the Kessler rematch most of all, especially if it is in Nottingham.

as stated kessler rematch as if nothing else it was a good fight and 50/50. kessler has smashed green in his last fight and also lost only to ward (who beats them both everyday of the week and twice on sundays) so i dont see kessler as faded as most.

ward stopped the number 1 light heavy, so already frochs loss is looking less significant.

cleverly would be an easy scalp and another title at another weight so not a bad option, other than that go for oosthuien, pavlik and possibliy a final swan song against either groves or degale in a huge domestic fight if either continue there winning ways

I think the problem is Kessler is trying to get a rematch with Ward also, he fights Magee in december to become the wba regular or interim champ putting himself in a position to face Ward. Ward is set to face Pavlik in January, so instead of both Froch only have the option to face the winner of Ward v Kessler 2.

I really hope the Bute rematch doesn't happen yet, Bute looked so uninspiring in his last fight, I think he needs at least another tuneup to prove himself. Maybe its worth taking on his mandatory Stevenson next, then the winner of Ward/Kessler in Notts or vegas?

Two comments -

First to Gordy............... STOP TALKING ABOUT LEWIS ON EVERY THREAD!!!!

aherm sorry for that.

Secondly.......Union how about a Froch video set?

Cheers.

eddyfightfan wrote:as stated kessler rematch as if nothing else it was a good fight and 50/50. kessler has smashed green in his last fight and also lost only to ward (who beats them both everyday of the week and twice on sundays) so i dont see kessler as faded as most.

ward stopped the number 1 light heavy, so already frochs loss is looking less significant.

cleverly would be an easy scalp and another title at another weight so not a bad option, other than that go for oosthuien, pavlik and possibliy a final swan song against either groves or degale in a huge domestic fight if either continue there winning ways

All of those fights would be good from a payday point of view, but at present Froch would beat Degale, Groves and Cleverly all in the same night. None of those would pose a challenge to him and given that every fight now must be a mega fight especially from a legacy standpoint given his age and position in the game, I would think fights against Dawson, Cloud, Hopkins etc would be better provided Kessler or Bute don't want to the rematches.

Froch legacy doesn't change after this fight. He has had an outstanding career now and they nay sayers can argue allt hey want. At a point in time you have to stop talking about natural ability and stardom etc and look at a fighters achievements. Froch only real "black mark" is the Kessler defeat. He should have won that but didn't perform. Now, if he defeats him in a rematch and even KO's him I consider that mark erased. Again nay saers will say he wasn't half the fighter he was v Calzaghe, but then I could argue that Calzaghe had 50,000 fans and hometown judges on his side, which is also unfair.

Froch went to Denmark and lost a close decision, not to mention there was also the ash cloud crisis.

I think he can beat Kessler and he will in a rematch.

Mack isn't a great by any means but he's never been handled with such ease before, he was giving Cloud serious trouble before he started landing around the halfway mark, the fight does highlight the gulf in class between the elite and the fringe level contenders out there.

Froch is the greatest paper champion out there!

By British standards, the legacy that Carl will leave is considerable. His achievements clearly establish him as one of the best half dozen or so UK fighters since the war and somewhere on the fringe of the top dozen ever from these shores. That's some epitaph.

The presence of Ward means that he'll never be able to claim that he was the governor of his weight class, sadly. Nevertheless, his career should serve as a template for future generations of ambitious British boxers to follow. Maximise your talent, embrace every challenge you can find and you will get your rewards.

spencerclarke wrote:
Secondly.......Union how about a Froch video set?

Excellent idea. I wish I'd thought of it sooner.

https://www.606v2.com/t26668-carl-froch-2921-2-0

Good to know all my efforts weren't wasted...

I had someone on the BBC website saying that because Peter Manfredo Jr beat Froch at amatuer and Calzaghe beat Manfredo in 3 rounds several years later, then this is proof positive that Froch can never be held in the same esteem as Calzagh. I then went and beat my head against a brick wall for ten minutes as the slightly less painful option of carrying on that debate.

Froch's legacy will be as a fighter not scared to test himself against the best in the world. Of that he should be rightly proud.

As the captain has alluded to Froch is a little unfortunate in having Ward around during his time because I genuinely believe that irrespective of when or where they fight Ward has his number, no shame in that as ward looks something special but unfortunate that Froch will never be able to call himself the man at his weight.

However that should not detract from his achievements that he and us as fans should be proud of, all too easy to be cynical and say this guy was past his best or he was fortunate in this one but from Pascal onwards Froch put together a run of around 8 fights that stands favourable comparison with literally any Brit not just of the last few years but through the history of the sport, the level of opposition is outstanding, the fact so many were overseas only adds to the impressive nature, add into that only Ward can have claimed to really beat Froch in convincing fashion and in the mix there are a couple of truly outstanding performances on Carl’s part such as Abraham and Bute and you have to think when the dust settles a top fifteen of all time from the UK is probably already his. If he could secure and win the Kessler rematch as I believe he would a top ten berth may well be arguable.

However what is not arguable is that in terms of ambition and a willingness to test yourself against the best Carl is pretty much without compare.

Rotherham Joe Gans wrote:As the captain has alluded to Froch is a little unfortunate in having Ward around during his time because I genuinely believe that irrespective of when or where they fight Ward has his number, no shame in that as ward looks something special but unfortunate that Froch will never be able to call himself the man at his weight.

However that should not detract from his achievements that he and us as fans should be proud of, all too easy to be cynical and say this guy was past his best or he was fortunate in this one but from Pascal onwards Froch put together a run of around 8 fights that stands favourable comparison with literally any Brit not just of the last few years but through the history of the sport, the level of opposition is outstanding, the fact so many were overseas only adds to the impressive nature, add into that only Ward can have claimed to really beat Froch in convincing fashion and in the mix there are a couple of truly outstanding performances on Carl’s part such as Abraham and Bute and you have to think when the dust settles a top fifteen of all time from the UK is probably already his. If he could secure and win the Kessler rematch as I believe he would a top ten berth may well be arguable.

However what is not arguable is that in terms of ambition and a willingness to test yourself against the best Carl is pretty much without compare.

Well said, can't argue with anything you put here. He is my favourite boxer at the moment, epitomises everything I love about the sport.

For what it's worth, Jeff, I've got Froch 12th at the moment. Would accept that a win over Kessler could be enough to tilt him into the ten spot, where he competes with Lynch and Hamed, for me. It would certainly be extremely close between Hamed and Froch for my final top ten berth, let's say that. In the extremely unlikely event that Froch were to beat Ward in a rematch, he'd go as high as number 4 in my list.

Outside of skill, heart, stamina etc., the characteristic that fans most admire, I think, is the taking on of allcomers. And in Froch and Ward, the super middleweight division has two such fighters. What's even more impressive is they are doing it back to back. No gearing up. To box wildly varying and differing styles one after the other is a true measure of adaptibility. And it says something about confidence also.


Doing well and climbing Carl Froch. Undiminished by his ring exploits. And improving all the while. Some may scoff, but I'm starting to get excited about the Ward rematch. Particularly if Ward were to demonstrate his sporting side and come to Nottingham. He'd sure go up in my estimation were he to attempt that, not that I don't already hold him in very high regard.


A few more wins and who knows Froch might even close in on the legacy of the great Calzaghe. One thing's for sure though, this country produces a disproportionate amount of good supermiddleweights.

I really hate trying to rate Froch.

Given his time and Calzaghes are so close together they will always be compared which is where the problem is. I'm a big Calzaghe fan and I really can't see how he loses to Froch but when you look at their respective opponents Froch has consistently fought much better guys. Froch has built a record of very very good wins but it still bothers me that he has lost to the best two people he fought, a win against Kessler in a rematch would really help his cause and is entirely attainable but Ward will always be a bridge to far. Then I end up asking myself if Calzaghe had fought such a large amount of top level guys would he have found a style he couldn't deal with and picked up a loss? Would Ward have beaten him as well? Why did Calzaghe waste most of his prime years fighting guys who had no business being in the same ring as him?

I still rate Calzaghe ahead at the moment but with a rematch win over Kessler and if Froch could get a few scalps at Light Heavy he would go ahead for me. I already rate him above Hamed, Hatton, Benn, Eubank and Collins.

I don't have Froch a great deal behind Joe. Another win or 2 and he passes him in the rankings for me. Ward beats both of them with something to spare. Sure, Calzaghe beat Kessler but I think the quality of Carls resume is strong enough to close the gap. Beat Kessler and Bute again and he moves ahead if him.

I think Froch may need the Light-Heavyweight title to surpass Calzaghe. Given that he didn't turn professional or compete for a world title until a relatively advanced age, he'll never match Calzaghe's longevity of course, but the key argument is that while Calzaghe established himself as the top man and consensus champion in two weight classes, Froch is yet to do it in one.

There are mitigating factors there, of course. The Super-Middleweight division which Carl has been fighting in from 2008 to 2012 is unequivocally stronger than any time period you wish to highlight during Calzaghe's decade-long reign at 168 lb. I'll happily go on record saying that Calzaghe would have had to settle for a Super-Middleweight silver medal, so to speak, had he been boxing for titles at the same time as Ward, too.

As such, the Kessler loss becomes a real black mark against Froch when comparing him directly to Joe. If he avenges it in a rematch - which I think he would - then he closes the gap, but stays behind for me. If he goes up to 175 lb and takes a belt from someone like Cloud, Cleverly or Shumenov, then he's breathing down Calzaghe's neck. If, however, he was to usurp Dawson as THE man at the weight (and again, I'd be willing to back him to do that), then he gets his nose in front, and would be right on the cusp of my all-time top five British fighters.

Kessler, Cloud and Dawson all being vanquished within the next eighteen months or so is asking a lot of Carl, but I don't think it's beyond him.

I understand the light heavy weight argument, but it shouldn't be Cleverley he fights. If, as I suspect, they are classes apart, then all the comments would come back that he wanted a title for direct comparison with Calzaghe and picked the weaker champion to fight. Froch should do what he does best and continue to pit himself against the best out there, which would mean Cloud and Dawson for me.

Sorry what champion did Calzaghe beat at LHW?

Hopkins was the 'de facto' (ie, Ring Magazine) champion, Jonesy.

Yeah I get it was for who the ring 'recognises' as the LHW champion and I know to the more avid boxing fan the Ring is the prefereble belt but to be totally pedantic he didnt fight a big four world champion.

It was more about legacy than titles at that point for Calzaghe, a win over Erdei, Diaconu or Garay would have given him a belt but relatively little kudos.

Union - this is more of a direct reponse to BHB's comment of:

'then all the comments would come back that he wanted a title for direct comparison with Calzaghe and picked the weaker champion to fight'

It was about money, not legacy. Jones provided one thing more than others, and it sure as hell wasn't a challenge.

So you are saying that Calzaghe didn't win a title at LHW, so if Froch dethrones Cleverly he will automatically rank above JC at the weight?

No - what I am saying is that Calzaghe won the right to be the recognized Ring Magazine champion.

If Froch beats Cleverly then it is not a direct comparison issit in accordance to BHB's comments

However if Froch beats 2 live boxers at LHW in Cleverly/Dawson/Cloud/Pascalx2 then yes, yes I would rank him above JC at LHW

I thought my comments were fairly innocuous! Accepting Jonesy rightly stated point that Hopkins was not a holder of a title, does he need to fight Hopkins to cement his legacy? I think we all agree that this would just open up the Calzaghe wanna be comments again. Hence the direct comparison comment (which I accept is not as direct as it may first seem). i.e. he fights somebody that can claim to be a top echelon fighter at heavyweight. Cleverley isn't this and so he should go direct for Cloud and Dawson.

Depends what Legacy means. It is usually something that is left behind to other people. I'd argue that Froch has already left a bigger impact on the world boxing stage than Calzaghe. Certainly the American audiences will have seen more of him and be more familiar with him than they were for Calzaghe.

seanmichaels wrote:Depends what Legacy means. It is usually something that is left behind to other people. I'd argue that Froch has already left a bigger impact on the world boxing stage than Calzaghe. Certainly the American audiences will have seen more of him and be more familiar with him than they were for Calzaghe.

NahI doubt it. In America people rate Calzaghe very highly, because of the demolition of Lacy, Kessler and the two American greats. Froch would have to beat both Kessler and Ward to establish a better legacy.

People forget the myth of the "0" carries a long way. Marciano for example would barely be spoken about if he was 48-1. Also Froch needs to own a division and despite his continuous high quality match upds he doesn't. He should move up to LHW affer dealing with Bute. He could beat any of those champions but is getting on a bit so needs to move sooner rather than later and forget all about Ward.

The Legacy of the Cobra? Are we talking about what it should be or what it will be? My gut feeling is that he will (probably unfairly) still be in Calzaghe's shadow.

However, I believe Froch had done enough to merit his own page in British Boxing history without being a footnote on someone else's. His losses to Ward and Kessler will hurt his credibilty somewhat but not as much as Lewis losing to McCall and Rahman has damaged his (even though he avenged them). Kessler and Ward are fine fighters in their own right and there's no shame in losing to either of them. However, I do believe Froch should seek to rematch both. I think he beats Kessler this time round and makes a fight with Ward a much closer affair.

I'm not one for believing the "underprepared/overtrained" excuses many fighters offer but in the two losses Froch suffered, he states he was underpar and, especially in the fight with Ward, he looked a shadow of the fighter he did prior to that loss. I agree that Ward is a guy who makes good fighters look ordinary but, like Haye losing to Wlad, Froch is a better fighter than his losing efforts made him out to be.

I'd like to see Froch move up to LH as I believe Cloud and Dawson to be nothing special (never rated them) and Froch has the beating of both on the same night.

Carl has a bit of swagger about him these days and I think he now genuinely believes he's one of the top SM in the World but that this belief is in no way misplaced.

I think he's enhanced his reputation to actually bin the IBF title if they're going to enforce a fight with Bute or the mandatory and look at getting Kessler or Ward across the pond. Maybe Froch can face Kessler at LH and kill two birds with one stone before having one last crack at Ward. However, I think Froch would like to go out on a high and beating Kessler for a title at a 2nd weight would be a fitting end to the career or someone who (in the parlance of your old school commentators) has "done it the hard way"

[quote="DAVE667"]The Legacy of the Cobra? Are we talking about what it should be or what it will be? My gut feeling is that he will (probably unfairly) still be in Calzaghe's shadow.

However, I believe Froch had done enough to merit his own page in British Boxing history without being a footnote on someone else's. His losses to Ward and Kessler will hurt his credibilty somewhat but not as much as Lewis losing to McCall and Rahman has damaged his (even though he avenged them). Kessler and Ward are fine fighters in their own right and there's no shame in losing to either of them. However, I do believe Froch should seek to rematch both. I think he beats Kessler this time round and makes a fight with Ward a much closer affair.

I'm not one for believing the "underprepared/overtrained" excuses many fighters offer but in the two losses Froch suffered, he states he was underpar and, especially in the fight with Ward, he looked a shadow of the fighter he did prior to that loss. I agree that Ward is a guy who makes good fighters look ordinary but, like Haye losing to Wlad, Froch is a better fighter than his losing efforts made him out to be.

I'd like to see Froch move up to LH as I believe Cloud and Dawson to be nothing special (never rated them) and Froch has the beating of both on the same night.

Carl has a bit of swagger about him these days and I think he now genuinely believes he's one of the top SM in the World but that this belief is in no way misplaced.

I think he's enhanced his reputation to actually bin the IBF title if they're going to enforce a fight with Bute or the mandatory and look at getting Kessler or Ward across the pond. Maybe Froch can face Kessler at LH and kill two birds with one stone before having one last crack at Ward. However, I think Froch would like to go out on a high and beating Kessler for a title at a 2nd weight would be a fitting end to the career or someone who (in the parlance of your old school commentators) has "done it the hard way"

More like Wlad made an ordinary fighter in Haye look bad.

Froch will go down like Ken Buchannon. Great in his time but forgotten afterwards.

Union Cane wrote:

spencerclarke wrote:
Secondly.......Union how about a Froch video set?

Excellent idea. I wish I'd thought of it sooner.



https://www.606v2.com/t26668-carl-froch-2921-2-0

Good to know all my efforts weren't wasted...

Haha sorry Union. I'll hang my head in shame. I should have known you were too good at your job to make such an emission. Very good, carry on with the good work. As you were.

spencerclarke wrote:

Union Cane wrote:

spencerclarke wrote:
Secondly.......Union how about a Froch video set?

Haha sorry Union. I'll hang my head in shame. I should have known you were too good at your job to make such an emission. Very good, carry on with the good work. As you were.

Not to worry, we have all got low estimations of Union following his spell administering the UCPL .