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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:15 am

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2016/11/andre-ward-can-surpass-mayweathers-pacquiaos-legacy/#more-221864

I normally go on boxing 24 for a laugh and thought no way can he surpass these guys. But the further I read into the article, the more I started to agree.

Light Heavyweight is becoming a very tough division. If Ward can somehow beat them all and cap it off with a win against GGG, he would be HUGE!

Now I am not saying Ward can do this. Perhaps Kovalev will knock his block off next. Who knows?

But if he finished his career in that style, he would be something else.

Ward is not a great puncher, so I can't imagine many ducking him. Lets just hope if his star grows, he doesn't do the high risk low reward road like Floyd and Manny. That is always a danger.

On the flipside, read the article and imagine Kovalev wins the rematch and takes out all comers. He won't have dominated 2 divisions, but he would be one of the most dominating light heavies ever. At least in the last 20-30 years.

There is no malice in this thread and I'm happy to discuss it with anyone. though a bit of banter is more than welcome. I won't wind anyone up.


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Post by hazharrison on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:26 am

Pointless discussing legacy until a career is done.


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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:29 am

More a hypothetical.

I am glad though you replied. You like a man that can dominate all before him.

To be honest Haz, if Ward or Kovalev dominated all these guys and GGG stepped up to either beat them, or at least run them close, he would be the best thing since sliced bread.

I guess these threads are pointless, but my work are building a new computer system and I have f all to do. Pointless thread it is!

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Post by Rodney on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:53 pm

Does Mayweather have a better win on his CV than what has Ward now ? Albeit debatable and I thought Kovalev was a worthy winner - Ward has a win on his record against a dominant champion who was in his prime without any stipulations. I'd say he does.

Cheers, Rodders
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:57 pm

Ward has to face Kovalev again to put the doubters to rest just like May weather did when he clearly beat castilio the first time but some saw it as a draw so May weather faced him again and beat him convincingly.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:58 pm

Rodney wrote:Does Mayweather have a better win on his CV than what has Ward now ? Albeit debatable and I thought Kovalev was a worthy winner - Ward has a win on his record against a dominant champion who was in his prime without any stipulations. I'd say he does.

Cheers, Rodders

I think Canelo because of the size difference. It was a big fight, that many thought Floyd could lose. Good point though. Kovalev is a great scalp.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 12:58 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Ward has to face Kovalev  again to put the doubters to rest just like May weather did when he clearly  beat castilio  the first time but some saw it as a draw so May weather faced him again and beat him convincingly.

I think this will be the case. Long as Ward doesn't get hurt early again.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:12 pm

Ward has not been the most exciting fighter dominant yes but never set the pulses racing this will work against him in the future and a bonifide great fighter will be largely overlooked like another great light heavy in Bob Foster

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:33 pm

Kovalev is a better win than Canelo at catch-weight. Shame he didn't win!

But yeah: Kovalev/Ward (whoever you have) hold a better win than Floyd managed in his whole career.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:35 pm

hazharrison wrote:Kovalev is a better win than Canelo at catch-weight. Shame he didn't win!

But yeah: Kovalev/Ward (whoever you have) hold a better win than Floyd managed in his whole career.

I think Corrales was a good win. Easy to say in hindsight that many beat Corrales after. The time Floyd beat him, many favoured him. Floyd still has a far deeper resume for now.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:36 pm

It's an interesting question and depends entirely on the rematch. If Kovalev beats him convincingly, he got lucky in the first and ain't all that. If he outclasses Kovalev then he should have all the plaudits.
However if he blocks and mauls his way to a questionable points win over every LHW he faces next, most boxing fans will likely be asleep.

Fantastic boxer. Dull as beige paint to watch.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:38 pm

Floyd lovers won't like to hear this but its incontrovertible..

The win over Kovalev controversial or not is better than anything on Floyd's resume

Manny post prime so Ward's got a superior win already still got a few years left beats Kova again(on neutral soil) and Stevenson and Beterbiev I wouldn't mind you saying he's got a better resume overall than Floyd, I really wouldnt he's beating prime fighters


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Post by hazharrison on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:40 pm

AdamT wrote:
hazharrison wrote:Kovalev is a better win than Canelo at catch-weight. Shame he didn't win!

But yeah: Kovalev/Ward (whoever you have) hold a better win than Floyd managed in his whole career.

I think Corrales was a good win. Easy to say in hindsight that many beat Corrales after. The time Floyd beat him, many favoured him. Floyd still has a far deeper resume for now.

It was a good win, as was Hernandez/Castillo. As was Kessler/Froch etc.

Ward, though, took on the best guy around at his best weight in his prime. Floyd doesn't have anyone like Kovalev on his record - because he chose not to.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:44 pm

hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:
hazharrison wrote:Kovalev is a better win than Canelo at catch-weight. Shame he didn't win!

But yeah: Kovalev/Ward (whoever you have) hold a better win than Floyd managed in his whole career.

I think Corrales was a good win. Easy to say in hindsight that many beat Corrales after. The time Floyd beat him, many favoured him. Floyd still has a far deeper resume for now.

It was a good win, as was Hernandez/Castillo. As was Kessler/Froch etc.  

Ward, though, took on the best guy around at his best weight in his prime. Floyd doesn't have anyone like Kovalev on his record - because he chose not to.

I don't agree with you Haz, you are entitled to your view.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 1:59 pm

He fought Canelo at a higher weight....

Skill wise, Floyd is leagues above though

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:03 pm

Yes I would imagine Canelo weighed quite a bit more.

I love Floyd haters, they are delusional. Floyd and Manny are ATG fighters and will be rated really high in years to come. I'm glad I got to see their era.

p4p a peak Floyd would of beat either Ward or Kovalv (I await Mr Harrisons inevitable cry of, he wouldn't fight them)

This has turned into a Floyd thread. Not me this time.

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:03 pm

He dragged him down to a catch-weight. That's why I hate them - loser always has an excuse and result always comes with an asterix.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:04 pm

Floyd skills superior to Ward no doubt Ward bigger balls though

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:04 pm

hazharrison wrote:He dragged him down to a catch-weight. That's why I hate them - loser always has an excuse and result always comes with an asterix.

You're a troll but it doesn't bother me! Either that or you have a fascination of Floyd. I think you're the former. Very Happy

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Post by Atila on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:51 pm

AdamT wrote:Yes I would imagine Canelo weighed quite a bit more.

I love Floyd haters, they are delusional. Floyd and Manny are ATG fighters and will be rated really high in years to come. I'm glad I got to see their era.

p4p a peak Floyd would of beat either Ward or Kovalv (I await Mr Harrisons inevitable cry of, he wouldn't fight them)

This has turned into a Floyd thread. Not me this time.
No he wouldn't. Floyd's too small. Cool

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:54 pm

Atila wrote:
AdamT wrote:Yes I would imagine Canelo weighed quite a bit more.

I love Floyd haters, they are delusional. Floyd and Manny are ATG fighters and will be rated really high in years to come. I'm glad I got to see their era.

p4p a peak Floyd would of beat either Ward or Kovalv (I await Mr Harrisons inevitable cry of, he wouldn't fight them)

This has turned into a Floyd thread. Not me this time.
No he wouldn't. Floyd's too small. Cool

p4p my friend. If they were the same size Floyd would beat these guys. It's not open for debate, this time I'm RIGHT! Wink

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:56 pm

AdamT wrote:Yes I would imagine Canelo weighed quite a bit more.

I love Floyd haters, they are delusional. Floyd and Manny are ATG fighters and will be rated really high in years to come. I'm glad I got to see their era.

p4p a peak Floyd would of beat either Ward or Kovalv (I await Mr Harrisons inevitable cry of, he wouldn't fight them)

This has turned into a Floyd thread. Not me this time.

You mean if they were the same size, he would yes

Not the actual Ward or Kovalev though

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:57 pm

Yeah I mean p4p, other words if they were the same size.

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Post by Atila on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 2:58 pm

AdamT wrote:
Atila wrote:
AdamT wrote:Yes I would imagine Canelo weighed quite a bit more.

I love Floyd haters, they are delusional. Floyd and Manny are ATG fighters and will be rated really high in years to come. I'm glad I got to see their era.

p4p a peak Floyd would of beat either Ward or Kovalv (I await Mr Harrisons inevitable cry of, he wouldn't fight them)

This has turned into a Floyd thread. Not me this time.
No he wouldn't. Floyd's too small. Cool

p4p my friend. If they were the same size Floyd would beat these guys. It's not open for debate, this time I'm RIGHT! Wink
Damn, I missed the p4p. Doh

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Post by Atila on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 3:25 pm

Andre Ward interested in heavyweight division, but only if 'right situation'
http://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/id/18115041/andre-ward-interested-heavyweight-division-only-right-opponents-right-situation

LAS VEGAS -- Andre Ward had just been awarded a unanimous decision victory against Sergey Kovalev to claim his three light heavyweight world title belts on Saturday night at T-Mobile Arena when the topic turned to Ward's ring future.

At the end of his post-fight news conference Ward was asked if he would ever consider moving up to the heavyweight division, where it is rare for a light heavyweight to find success. All-time greats such as Roy Jones Jr., Michael Spinks and Bob Fitzsimmons won world titles in both weight classes, but they are the exception. Other greats such as Archie Moore and Bob Foster failed when they moved up.

Boxing's marquee division does interest Ward (31-0, 15 KOs), whose win over Kovalev (30-1-1, 26 KOs) was tinged in controversy because Ward, who got knocked down in the second round, was given winning scores of 114-113 on all three judges' scorecards even though the majority of media had Kovalev winning a close fight.

Ward, however, said any move up to heavyweight would have to be the right situation. He ruled out facing giants of the division such as world titleholders Deontay Wilder and Anthony Joshua, enormous men who would have huge height and weight advantages.

"There's certain guys you don't mess with and those guys are too big," Ward said. "I respect them, but you got to find the right opponent and the right situation. So maybe one day, maybe not, but not those two."

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 3:27 pm

He has no power. He would have pillow fists in that division. Jones Jr had good snap on his punches at light heavyweight.

With Ward's style and lack of proper punch power, he has no hope. Kovalev or even Stevenson would do better at HW and they are also too small.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 3:32 pm

Hey if he moves up to heavyweight and beats someone with a belt, I don't really care who

That's incredible

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 3:39 pm

He won't be able to. Kovalev is a very good boxer and has great power, but fighting someone 40 or so pounds heavier?? They will flatten Ward.

Ward is a crafty good fighter, but he has been dropped and hurt. RJJ and Toney are special talents and both could dig at lower weights.

Unless Ward uses good 'supplements', he might have a chance.

I know Toney has had drug issues, but he did pretty good at heavyweight. It might of been an old Holyfield, but Toney beat him up.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 3:47 pm

Well yeah I'm not saying he isn't crazy

Just that whoever the opponent is thats very impressive

The fact people slate Jones for it is quite frankly laughable

Move from Middleweight to Heavyweight!

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:01 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:Well yeah I'm not saying he isn't crazy

Just that whoever the opponent is thats very impressive

The fact people slate Jones for it is quite frankly laughable

Move from Middleweight to Heavyweight!

Yeah and Toney too. He might of used supplements, but he still mixed it with some strong heavies. Jones Jr on his day at 160-168, might be the best boxer ever.

I struggle to pick anyone from 160-168 to beat him. There are a few good guys at 175 who might of beat him. A freak!


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Post by hazharrison on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:17 pm

AdamT wrote:
hazharrison wrote:He dragged him down to a catch-weight. That's why I hate them - loser always has an excuse and result always comes with an asterix.

You're a troll but it doesn't bother me! Either that or you have a fascination of Floyd. I think you're the former. Very Happy

Stating facts is trolling? It gets madder on here.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:21 pm

hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:
hazharrison wrote:He dragged him down to a catch-weight. That's why I hate them - loser always has an excuse and result always comes with an asterix.

You're a troll but it doesn't bother me! Either that or you have a fascination of Floyd. I think you're the former. Very Happy

Stating facts is trolling? It gets madder on here.

Is your opinion fact now? Get over yourself man. If you're not a troll, you have an unhealthy obsession with Floyd. You bring him down every chance you get.

Here are the facts:

49-0
5 weight champion, 4 lineal!
Beat 20 world champions
Has the best punch stats, for shots landed and defended in recent history.

Is he TBE? No way! Is he one of the greatest talents in recent memory? Most certainly.

Anyway you won't change your opinion, but the word fact has a different meaning in the English dictionary lad!

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:32 pm

AdamT wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:
hazharrison wrote:He dragged him down to a catch-weight. That's why I hate them - loser always has an excuse and result always comes with an asterix.

You're a troll but it doesn't bother me! Either that or you have a fascination of Floyd. I think you're the former. Very Happy

Stating facts is trolling? It gets madder on here.

Is your opinion fact now? Get over yourself man. If you're not a troll, you have an unhealthy obsession with Floyd. You bring him down every chance you get.

Here are the facts:

49-0
5 weight champion, 4 lineal!
Beat 20 world champions
Has the best punch stats, for shots landed and defended in recent history.

Is he TBE? No way! Is he one of the greatest talents in recent memory? Most certainly.

Anyway you won't change your opinion, but the word fact has a different meaning in the English dictionary lad!

Floyd fought Canelo at a catchweight. That's a fact, not my opinion. And I didn't bring him up. I just joined the debate.

Go dry your panties off. The new, mature Adam Truss didn't last long I see?

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 4:42 pm

I wish I hadn't wandered in here. Seeing Ward compared with Mayweather was inevitable but again, stupid.

I hate this P4P argument. If Floyd was the same size as Klitschko he would no longer be the same elusive boxer. Same as if Klitschko was the same size as Pacquiao, he wouldn't have the jab he does. It's insanity. You can claim they're greats at the weight, but P4P is something that carries very little weight (see what I did there?) with me.

Ward beating Kovalev is a singular great victory. I disagree with the verdict massively, but it is indeed a W on his record. Now, thats Kessler, Froch, Kovalev and Abraham. All elite world level champions. Floyd has always been able to pick his opponents at just the right time. His record reads as a who's who of the divisions he's gone through over the years - but they were not at their pinnacle when he fought the majority. Canelo is an exception, but as Haz stated, it was at a catch weight, so doesn't have the same gravitas as going up to the full weight class and fighting "the man" there. It just can't.

So, Mayweather may be the better boxer and for all intents and purposes looks like he has the better record, but under a microscope it isn't quite as rosy as everyone wants you to believe. Tends to be small minded fanboy trolls that bounce up and down shouting these things I find.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 5:13 pm

I wasn't being immature Andrew. I am merely pointing out, most times you mention Floyd it is opinion, not fact. I don't mind what you think of the guy, but you're a tad obsessed. I rib GGG fans. I do think he is fantastic, though his resume isn't great.

Winding you up is very easy and boring. Have a good day.




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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 5:18 pm

Another dig at me Jabby?


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Post by hazharrison on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 5:23 pm

AdamT wrote:I wasn't being immature Andrew. I am merely pointing out, most times you mention Floyd it is opinion, not fact. I don't mind what you think of the guy, but you're a tad obsessed. I rib GGG fans. I do think he is fantastic, though his resume isn't great.

Winding you up is very easy and boring. Have a good day.




You obviously do care what I think as every time he crops up you can guarantee you'll pop up like a bad case of herpes to bore everyone to death.

You don't wind anyone up - you just bore everyone with the same drivel.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 5:38 pm

Moving on

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 6:46 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:I wish I hadn't wandered in here. Seeing Ward compared with Mayweather was inevitable but again, stupid.

I hate this P4P argument. If Floyd was the same size as Klitschko he would no longer be the same elusive boxer. Same as if Klitschko was the same size as Pacquiao, he wouldn't have the jab he does. It's insanity. You can claim they're greats at the weight, but P4P is something that carries very little weight (see what I did there?) with me.

Ward beating Kovalev is a singular great victory. I disagree with the verdict massively, but it is indeed a W on his record. Now, thats Kessler, Froch, Kovalev and Abraham. All elite world level champions. Floyd has always been able to pick his opponents at just the right time. His record reads as a who's who of the divisions he's gone through over the years - but they were not at their pinnacle when he fought the majority. Canelo is an exception, but as Haz stated, it was at a catch weight, so doesn't have the same gravitas as going up to the full weight class and fighting "the man" there. It just can't.

So, Mayweather may be the better boxer and for all intents and purposes looks like he has the better record, but under a microscope it isn't quite as rosy as everyone wants you to believe. Tends to be small minded fanboy trolls that bounce up and down shouting these things I find.

Sorry to go off topic but its ''for all intensive purposes''

sorry back on topic.

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 7:19 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Sorry to go off topic but its ''for all intensive purposes''

sorry back on topic.

No it isn't.

Read a book.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/for--all--intents--and--purposes

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 8:08 pm

Have you calmed down Jabmachine? The sparring jab shouldn't annoy you.

It's a forum f..k it. Also for the record I've been an avid reader since bbc days, so I did know about it.

You shouldn't take it too hard man. I didn't mean to f..k you off.

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 8:57 pm

I've said before I don't mind light hearted jokes about it, but you took it too far, it's been about 4 years. People have moved on.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:04 pm

Roy Jones was just a phenomenon

One of the fastest and best I've seen

Might not have been the greatest technically but had inhuman athletic gifts

Amazing

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:28 pm

Sorry, won't mention it again. Didn't intentionally try to upset you. I'm a d1ck at times, but it was out of order.


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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:30 pm

Jones was a phenom. No other word to describe him. I thought he was the greatest ever 15 years ago. I thought he was destined to sit along Ali and Ray Robinson.

Still a great though.

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 9:08 am

AdamT wrote:Sorry, won't mention it again. Didn't intentionally try to upset you. I'm a d1ck at times, but it was out of order.


Alright, clean slate it is mate

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 9:10 am

JabMachineMK2 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Sorry, won't mention it again. Didn't intentionally try to upset you. I'm a d1ck at times, but it was out of order.


Alright, clean slate it is mate

Good man!! thumbsup

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:34 am

AdamT wrote:Jones was a phenom. No other word to describe him. I thought he was the greatest ever 15 years ago. I thought he was destined to sit along Ali and Ray Robinson.

Still a great though.

In my opinion Jones does

I totally disregard everything that happened after moving up to heavyweight

After that he aint the same guy, its so clear to see, that Jones isn't even a shell

One of the best I have ever seen for sure

I mean he played with Toney and Hopkins, who the hell does that?

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:39 am

BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Jones was a phenom. No other word to describe him. I thought he was the greatest ever 15 years ago. I thought he was destined to sit along Ali and Ray Robinson.

Still a great though.

In my opinion Jones does

I totally disregard everything that happened after moving up to heavyweight

After that he aint the same guy, its so clear to see, that Jones isn't even a shell

One of the best I have ever seen for sure

I mean he played with Toney and Hopkins, who the hell does that?

He would play with Floyd too, if they were the same weight. Best I have ever seen on his night.

If he was around during the 80's he would beat the fantastic 4 at 160. Bold claim I know. Hearns and Hagler would have a punchers chance, Leonard and Duran would be dominated.

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Post by hazharrison on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:44 am

Jones wouldn't have been a welterweight/middleweight in the 80s. He'd have been in with Spinks/Muhammed/Qawi etc.

Like Pacquiao, he was a physical freak. Who knows whether he'd have been the same freakish athlete under 80s rules?


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