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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:15 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2016/11/andre-ward-can-surpass-mayweathers-pacquiaos-legacy/#more-221864

I normally go on boxing 24 for a laugh and thought no way can he surpass these guys. But the further I read into the article, the more I started to agree.

Light Heavyweight is becoming a very tough division. If Ward can somehow beat them all and cap it off with a win against GGG, he would be HUGE!

Now I am not saying Ward can do this. Perhaps Kovalev will knock his block off next. Who knows?

But if he finished his career in that style, he would be something else.

Ward is not a great puncher, so I can't imagine many ducking him. Lets just hope if his star grows, he doesn't do the high risk low reward road like Floyd and Manny. That is always a danger.

On the flipside, read the article and imagine Kovalev wins the rematch and takes out all comers. He won't have dominated 2 divisions, but he would be one of the most dominating light heavies ever. At least in the last 20-30 years.

There is no malice in this thread and I'm happy to discuss it with anyone. though a bit of banter is more than welcome. I won't wind anyone up.


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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:45 am

Does the Kovalev win over Hopkins somewhat downplay Jones' domination of Bernard or does it mean that both Kovalev AND Jones are, in a boxing sense, something of a phenomenon?

They both played with him a first ballot hofer..

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Post by hazharrison on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:47 am

Herman Jaeger wrote:Does the Kovalev win over Hopkins somewhat downplay Jones' domination of Bernard or does it mean that both Kovalev AND Jones are, in a boxing sense, something of a phenomenon?

They both played with him a first ballot hofer..

Hopkins wasn't at his best in both fights - and so any praise/criticism should be tempered accordingly.

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:58 am

What Rules are they Haz?? My mystic powers have disappeared.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:03 pm

If both Kovalev and Ward are a notch up from Bernard also (if) then maybe wasn't such a phenomenal achievement by Jones to dominate a (green for the sake of argument) Hopkins

Toney chronically drained for their fight too so maybe just maybe people going overboard on Jones a mite the rest of his resume not that great?

Jones never had to face a Kovalev or a Ward just sayin

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:04 pm

Kovelav and Ward are not better than a prime Jones.

My eyes work and I know Jones would of played with these guys.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:06 pm

Don't see anyone playing with Kovalev to be honest Kov also brings the fear factor and Roy knows deep down what we would later find out..

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:09 pm

Jones beats him easy. To fast, too much quality. Go back and watch Jones in his prime.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:10 pm

I doubt that Jones at his peak would be particularly wary of Kovalev, the speed difference is such that he'd be in cruise control and he was a great puncher too so would have him on the back foot, not even close.

Kov's win over Hopkins is in no way comparable to Jones', it was 20+ years later against an old man albeit one still capable of beating the fringe contenders.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:13 pm

Hammersmith underrating Kovalev's speed again remember he wasn't supposed to get anywhere near Ward..

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:14 pm

Hammersmith is right on this occasion. Ward is fast, but he isn't Jones Jr. Kovalev would be played with.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:17 pm

Tarver and the slow as molasses Glen gets to Roy but Kovy can't...

ok..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:20 pm

I like BF88 tend to ignore Jones' post Heavyweight career, using the Tarver and Johnson fights is akin to using Harrington and Archer against Robinson, the same boxer in name only.

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:20 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Tarver and the slow as molasses Glen gets to Roy but Kovy can't...

ok..

Did Jones not come down from Heavyweight? Herman don't be silly!

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:21 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I like BF88 tend to ignore Jones' post Heavyweight career, using the Tarver and Johnson fights is akin to using Harrington and Archer against Robinson, the same boxer in name only.

I want to use Holmes and Berbick for Ali.

What about Camacho and Norris for Sugar Ray??

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:31 pm

You Jones fanboys eh you won't hear a negative word about your man. Nobody knew at the time Jones was past it that's revisionist to say that whereas obvious the two Rays were shells when they fought the names you mention

Also Hopkins and Jones were tailored for Roy, Kovalev most certainly isn't tougher test than both those two imo

Take your point on Roy not being the same after his heavyweight foray you're probably right though but he wasn't obviously shot coming into that first ko loss that you must surely concede

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Post by hazharrison on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:37 pm

Roy's opposition at 175 wasn't great - until he fought Tarver and Johnson (at which point he'd started to fade).

Both Ward and Kovalev would have been the best he faced at light heavy and so I strongly doubt anyone would be played with.

Kovalev has enough power to lay Roy down and Ward is awkward enough to have given him a fight (Montell Griffin showed that Roy could be slowed down).

I'd still favour Jones over both - but they'd be really tough fights.

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Post by hazharrison on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:39 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:You Jones fanboys eh you won't hear a negative word about your man. Nobody knew at the time Jones was past it that's revisionist to say that whereas obvious the two Rays were shells when they fought the names you mention

Also Hopkins and Jones were tailored for Roy, Kovalev most certainly isn't tougher test than both those two imo

Take your point on Roy not being the same after his heavyweight foray you're probably right though but he wasn't obviously shot coming into that first ko loss that you must surely concede

Yeah, load of tut he was shot post-heavyweight. The idea he was as over the hill as SRL and Ali were against HC and TB is ridiculous.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:42 pm

Nobody ever knows a boxer is shot until they are, we don't have a crystal ball that allows to see into the future, even in the first Tarver fight which he won it was clear he had slowed down significantly, labouring to a points win.

Hopkins was tailor made for anybody, even as a youngish man he was awkward to face and deceptively fast, he aside from Griffin provided Jones with his toughest test where he had to rely on his boxing rather than physical gifts. Kovalev isn't quick enough to trouble Jones in his pomp, power means bugger all if you can't catch the other man.

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:43 pm

hazharrison wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:You Jones fanboys eh you won't hear a negative word about your man. Nobody knew at the time Jones was past it that's revisionist to say that whereas obvious the two Rays were shells when they fought the names you mention

Also Hopkins and Jones were tailored for Roy, Kovalev most certainly isn't tougher test than both those two imo

Take your point on Roy not being the same after his heavyweight foray you're probably right though but he wasn't obviously shot coming into that first ko loss that you must surely concede

Yeah, load of tut he was shot post-heavyweight. The idea he was as over the hill as SRL and Ali were against HC and TB is ridiculous.

He had to lose a load of weight in his 30's. I imagine it done a fair bit of damage. He wasn't as far gone as Ali, but he was definitely not at his best.

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:45 pm

Haz I still think you're a bit of a troll. A subtle one, but a troll none the less.

Please don't respond with me being immature for stating my honest opinion. You can say what you want about me, so take on the chin.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:46 pm

I could still see Kovalev clipping Roy at some point though..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:48 pm

I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:49 pm

hazharrison wrote:Jones wouldn't have been a welterweight/middleweight in the 80s. He'd have been in with Spinks/Muhammed/Qawi etc.

Like Pacquiao, he was a physical freak. Who knows whether he'd have been the same freakish athlete under 80s rules?


80s rules?

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:51 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:Jones wouldn't have been a welterweight/middleweight in the 80s. He'd have been in with Spinks/Muhammed/Qawi etc.

Like Pacquiao, he was a physical freak. Who knows whether he'd have been the same freakish athlete under 80s rules?


80s rules?

Probably talking about PEDS or some other tripe. I asked him to clarify, but he chose to ignore.


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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:55 pm

It's simply a cop out way of saying the past is better, any modern boxer who challenges the status quo of the old timers being the greatest of all time feel Haz's wrath.

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:58 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's simply a cop out way of saying the past is better, any modern boxer who challenges the status quo of the old timers being the greatest of all time feel Haz's wrath.

Isn't he a writer? Very strange view to ignore todays boxing.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 12:59 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.

I dread to think what goes on in your mind

Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 1:42 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrJZoCssbpI

I challenge anybody to find me a clip of a faster boxer around his weight. Look at the upper body movement. Look at the fast combos. He wasn't textbook, but he was slick. Great, great fighter!

Ward and Kovalev? You're having a laugh.

Enjoy the video.


Last edited by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : .)

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:20 pm

AdamT wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrJZoCssbpI

I challenge anybody to find me a clip of a faster boxer around his weight. Look at the upper body movement. Look at the fast combos. He wasn't textbook, but he was slick. Great, great fighter!

Ward and Kovalev? You're having a laugh.

Enjoy the video.

He was just ridiculous his athletic gifts were not fair

He could hit you with a punch before you knew and then when you realised he would hit you with another one

Like watching someone on Dragonball Z

That Montel Griffin KO is one of my favourites of all time

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:24 pm

Dragon ball z. Awh f..k man, now you're taking me back!

Yeah that was a ridiculous knock out. He always wanted to make a show of Griffin after the DQ loss.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:30 pm

That uppercut would have decked a horse, it was a monstrous punch

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:37 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.

I dread to think what goes on in your mind

Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..

Roy was only chinny when he came back down from Heavyweight

Did he even go down prior to that? Was he ever wobbled?

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:38 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.

I dread to think what goes on in your mind

Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..

Roy was only chinny when he came back down from Heavyweight

Did he even go down prior to that? Was he ever wobbled?

Was he ever hit! Very Happy

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:41 pm

AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.

I dread to think what goes on in your mind

Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..

Roy was only chinny when he came back down from Heavyweight

Did he even go down prior to that? Was he ever wobbled?

Was he ever hit! Very Happy

Haha Exactly

The Roy Jones after the Heavyweight era I would pick Kovalev to beat

The one before that, no chance

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:53 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can see a pig jumping over the moon in my head but it's never going to happen.

I dread to think what goes on in your mind

Kovalev unpredictably quick it could happen and it wouldn't even need to be his best shot Roy's lack of world class whiskers..

Roy was only chinny when he came back down from Heavyweight

Did he even go down prior to that? Was he ever wobbled?

Was he ever hit! Very Happy

Haha Exactly

The Roy Jones after the Heavyweight era I would pick Kovalev to beat

The one before that, no chance

It always makes me sad when I see Calzaghe v Jones. Jones still had good speed, but he was so far gone then. Joe was very good, but he wasn't as fast as peak Roy and far too open. Roy would of battered him.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:54 pm

He'd just made Trinidad look ordinary..

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 2:55 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:He'd just made Trinidad look ordinary..

Trinidad was ordinary at this stage!

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:04 pm

True, Roy did love lesser oppo to show off his wares..

Shunned the rematch with Hoppo for years..

Wonder why...

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:05 pm

Because Hoppo was a middleweight??

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:10 pm

Bernard was prepared to move up..

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:11 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Bernard was prepared to move up..

I can't really remember if I'm honest. I think Jones would of beat him before his move to heavyweight. Hopkins is class, but he just wasn't fast enough.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:14 pm

Bernard had no problem with moving up..

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:18 pm

But yeah maybe Hoppy's feet always too slow for a prime Jones

Kovalev on the other hand has terrific footwork if he knew how to cut off a ring better he'd be virtually unbeatable at 75

Fortunately that's something that can be taught so here's hoping he improves that one part of his game

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:28 pm

You're entitled to your opinion Herman and I respect it, but the fighters I saw the other night does not beat a late 90's Roy Jones.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:34 pm

Fair enough Adam I'm not really qualified to talk on Jones anyway never saw his career live


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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:40 pm

It's my opinion mate. Nothing more!

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:46 pm

I respect you opinion Adam you know that

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Post by Marlonz on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 3:58 pm

Difficult one for me. As I said on another thread, I don't read too much into undefeated records, unless the fighter has fought successfully in international bouts, over several years.

So, when assessing Ward's career (rather than legacy at this stage), I find that a major hurdle to get over. As we saw just last weekend, he fought on home soil - with all US Judges and Referee - against a foreigner, and only just fell over the finish line. Pardon the pun....

I seriously wonder how he would've gotten on, had he have flown 8000 miles to Russia and fought in the presence of non - US officials?... That aside, I've always been impressed by Ward's physical conditioning and work-rate. Though I've never liked his habit of lunging in at waist-level and coming up forcefully with his head - bound to cause damage to an opponents face/head when you do it throughout the course of 12 rounds... Kovalev was the only one who was able to nullify that to an extent, but even he still took a few headbutts to the face..

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Post by AdamT on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 4:32 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:I respect you opinion Adam you know that

Least there is one Cool

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Post by catchweight on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 4:35 pm

Jones did not shun a hopkins rematch. Hopkins wanted a 50/50 split and the rematch at a catchweight. See you later bernard. I think kovalev would be a dangerous opponent for jones. Jones was fragile, albeit wonderfully talented.

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