London Welsh - still in hunt for Promotion?

http://www.london-welsh.co.uk/rugby_newsroom_article.asp?id=1176

Interesting ? Looks like LW are in talks with 4 clubs for a ground share. They still need to win the Championship first but it may be reason to fret if your a Falcon!

I hope they succeed, makes relegation a bit of a farce otherwise.

I would have liked Bristol to get promoted but I don't think they've played well enough

It would be great if London Welsh can get a ground share and get promoted - good work from Lynn as well.

Up the Welsh!

Hang on!

Don't the clubs have to announce their plans aforehand?

The Championship playoffs are already a farce with aspirational clubs cluttering up the qualifiers on no reasonable basis that they can ever hope to achieve the H&S standards?

It's a bit of a farce when half the teams in the Premiership would not pass the tests themselves.

From what I understand LW have stated their intentions to be promoted and applied for it, or that's what I gathered form an article I read relatively recently in which it said only Welsh and Bristol have applied to move up. So fingers crossed they not only succeed but then manage to get a large and sustainable fanbase.

There's a rumour that one of the grounds is the priestfield in Gillingham.

Don't know whether there are any other Medway/Kent residents on here, but it'd be nice to see premiership rugby this side of London.

Whatever happens, (I have no preference in the Championship race).

Any new new ground proposal would require its H&S and (ridiculously high) ground capacity PRL standards.

That will take a month at least after LW any final decision.

Realistically that would take any incumbent or aspirational side into the close seaon.

LW should have acted months earlier than this.

I voted for them as one of my English sides of the season. But this is pathetic.

Either have a plan for promotion or not. And if not, don't enter the playoffs.

It's a bit of a farce when half the teams in the Premiership would not pass the tests themselves

I think only Sale and Wasps would fail as is (or I remember reading it somewhere). Sale will change that when they move ground. Most AP clubs have alright facilities even if their grounds are inconvenient (like LI or Sarries).

Sam the point is that the championship playoffs are a shambles.

Each club should declare it's competency by at least Jan 1st.

Or forego any chance of a playoff spot. And not wait until the 11th hour -1min to chuck an objection.

Clubs had to apply by 31st March - with full details. As far as I know LW did but left most of the details blank stating they would sort a groundshare if and when necessary.

If rejected they plan to sue. I have a horrible feeling this is all about seeking compensation rather than promotion.

Whether Welsh manage promotion or not, they will struggle for support in west London. Maybe a move would realise a bigger fan base.

I wish them well as they are a good team to watch. The Exiles derby at ODP was a cracking game.

I'm pretty sure Welsh said it was ridiculous to expect a championship club to finalize a ground share agreement months before they new they would have any chance of promotion. So they've applied and sorted everything else out. Hardly pathetic

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm pretty sure Welsh said it was ridiculous to expect a championship club to finalize a ground share agreement months before they new they would have any chance of promotion. So they've applied and sorted everything else out. Hardly pathetic

What have they sorted out?

Four dangling possibilities - all of which have to be scrutinised.

I talked to someone at London Welsh yesterday. I was told they have to keep a lid on some of the information until negotiations are in the final phases. Apparenlty this is due to some aspects of the contracts and is not related to any Premiership regulations.

I heard (saw it reported?) about a possible groundshare at The Stoop. There would be no facility restrictions there and it is just a short walk from Old Deer Park. My concern is London Welsh and Quins might be drawing from some of the same fan base.

That would be odd if we did, and how about damage to the pitch? Whichever team uses The Stoop after the first game of the weekend will find it torn up from the previous match

That's a good point. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me either.

I like London Welsh as a club. A good mate played there a number of years ago and I know some folks in the office. But, it doesn't seem good for the Premiership to have two clubs, Welsh and Quins, in the exact same area. Always happy to be proved wrong, though.

doc - lots of rugby fans in W. London will watch more than one team. There's quite a few Wasps fans go to watch Ealing in NL1, plus Scottish and Welsh when Wasps don't have a game. Some L. Irish fans too.

yappy, would it not be that one team uses the pitch on one weekend, and the other the week after. Assuming PRL sort out home and away fixtures sensibly.

Also if LW came up would they take part in the opening weekender at Twickers? And if they did who would drop out/be drafted in? Would it change to three games on the bounce?

So many questions!

Hound, that's what I was guessing, it's about the only way that it could work. I suppose financially Quins must see it as a viable plan if they've been willing to talk to LW about it .

If LW came up, Quins may put in a plea to opt out of the LDH. They haven't liked it for some time and always insist on it being an away game for them, whoever they play.

Couldn't see PRL agreeing to it though as no Quins team in the LDH would dent the attendance somewhat. To play in front of 50,000+ people at Twickenham would be a great opener for LW though.

doctor_grey wrote:My concern is London Welsh and Quins might be drawing from some of the same fan base.

Traditionally, within the Richmond area there were several big and well supported clubs. Quins, Richmond RFC, London Welsh and London Scottish.

I dont think London Welsh would have any trouble selling tickets. There is a huge Welsh community in London.

What's this 'Welsh community' in London? Is it like a ghetto?

sNs - there's no need for that.

maes, There may be a large number of Welsh folk in London, but they aren't going to ODP in droves*. 1,200 is about the average gate

*Possibly because LW are part of the RFU professional club system and have very few Welsh players these days.

Quins have come out with a statement on the LW ground share

"Given the ongoing speculation in the media about the possibility of London Welsh using The Twickenham Stoop for the club's home fixtures should it secure promotion to the Aviva Premiership, Harlequins would like to confirm that there is no agreement between the clubs nor are any discussions currently taking place with London Welsh about such a possibility."

Doesn't look good for Welsh then.

My understanding is Brentford FC said no to ground share.
Quins said no.
Last option is Oxford FC - Kassam Stadium.

I really do hope they don't resort to a ludicrous move far away to Oxford. It's strange but I'd prefer them to remain in the Championship at ODP than move away, as I just wouldn't be able ot watch them play anymore. If the criteria weren't so obscenely obtuse then a groundshare with AFC Wimbledon could be perfect (approx 5000 capacity). However, things look bleak and confusing at present.

Loosehead - Isnt developing the ODP out of the equation! Lon Scots and Richmond have the same problem with the RA ground. Local authority put the block on any ground developing.

Even London Irish werent allowd to develop their Sunbury site for training facilities.

If Welsh want promotion then I fear that they have to ground share a FC ground and probably move out of Kew.
What other championship football clubs would have suitable grounds in say South London?

Loftus Rd? - QPR would be an option.

Left field - doesnt the Oval host a combined gaelic vs Ozzy rules match on a yearly basis? What about a couple of rugby posts being put up! Ground not really used in the winter months.

David
Yeah I wasn't suggesting developing the groun. I think it's something to do with it being Royal ground or something along those lines (that's just through the grapevine and could be a lie I was fed a kid). I accept moving grounds, that was inevitable, but just the though of moving far away would be dreadful for majority of fans. Just been looking at fc in the area, there's Brentford, Fulham, and AFC Wimbledon. Not too many options. However maybe slightly outside of London could be a possibility.

Crystal Palace - Selhurst Park

All these are viable, it's simply a case of securing the groundshare. Really Brentford would've been absolutely perfect but unfortunately they don't want to go forward with it. However, should Welsh fail to qualify this season hopefully Brentford can manage to relocate to a new stadium within a few years and could leave an empty Griffin Park.

Loosehead - yup, its tough. I think primarily there needs to be good public transport links if a club is going to move out of its fan base traditional territory.

I maintain that moving to Reading was not a great move for Irish. While a nice stadium, its still a nightmare to get to and get out of on a matchday.

Agreed. Also a big move away from the fanbase could be catastrophic should they be relegated after a season and be stranded with financial trouble, an empty stadium, and a disenfranchised and isolated original fanbase.

I'd love to see London Welsh come up and as long as they have some sort of stadium don't see the problem - off the wall solution might be "swap sides" and go East - I'll bet Dagenham and Redbridge would welcome the income at the bottom of the fourth division and only a few tube stops from the city......

Looseheaded wrote:David
Yeah I wasn't suggesting developing the groun. I think it's something to do with it being Royal ground or something along those lines (that's just through the grapevine and could be a lie I was fed as a kid). I accept moving grounds, that was inevitable, but just the though of moving far away would be dreadful for majority of fans. Just been looking at fc in the area, there's Brentford, Fulham, and AFC Wimbledon. Not too many options. However maybe slightly outside of London could be a possibility.

Is that like the one where the jingle on the icecream van is to tell everyone that it's out of icecream? I'll never forgive my folks for that one - barstewards

This is all bollix. LW should have had proven plans in place.

No point just hunting for a squat at the last minute and claim a permanent address.

David, yeah obviously that wouldn't be terrible, majority of fans could still attend, a strong part of the fanbase are in/around the Peckham area so that makes things even easier to get around.

Aslongas- You poor unfortunate soul, though I think my lies had more of an anti-monarchy undertone as opposed to those sweet sweet vanilla infusions found in a 99 Flake.

Apparently they could be playing at the Kassam stadium in Oxford. this is all a bit irrelevent really as they will lose to Cornwall. As much as I'd love to see them back in the top flight I just think Cornwall have a bit too much for them.

Portnoy wrote:This is all bollix. LW should have had proven plans in place.

No point just hunting for a squat at the last minute and claim a permanent address.

If the RFU, PRL and Fans in England want the Promotion and Relegation system in pace instead of a ring fenced top tier premiership then why do they not try to help the clubs looking for promotion, with loans or help them attract sponsorship...?

It seems like the same clubs have success in the AP, same clubs are in the middle of the league tables and the same clubs are always fighting relegation and promotion. How many years have Leicester Tigers not been the top club in England?

there are very very few clubs allowed to make a success of themselves. THe only exception I can think of recently is Exeter, and what a wonderful experience that has been for the premiership... Surely clubs like London Welsh and Cornish Pirates would add to the AP far more than they would take away.

I wouldn't agree with that actually. Sale came from pretty much nowhere and were very successful for a few years. Newcaste did the same thing. Conversely look at Wasps. A club with ancient tradition and that has been in the top flight a long time and was almost relegated. Bristol have been relegated and have stayed down.

I do agree that more support needs to be in place for clubs in the lower divisions if they want to have relegation. I think the truth is that they don't want it but they don't want to close off the championship as an (a) potential cash generator and (b) viable competition. They do need to commit one way or another though

Still the obvious question remains unanswered.

How can be at this late point can a club still be looking for a host ground? And still be wanting to be considered for promotion?

Promote Briz as the highest-placed qualified side.

Portnoy wrote:Still the obvious question remains unanswered.

How can be at this late point can a club still be looking for a host ground? And still be wanting to be considered for promotion?

Promote Briz as the highest-placed qualified side.

So you dont want the best teams promoted? Surely that would make the AP more competitive?

Look at what a great success Exeter have been as opposed to say, Bristol or Leeds who are rarely competitive in the AP and regularly face relegation straight after previous promotion.

Portnoy wrote:Still the obvious question remains unanswered.

How can be at this late point can a club still be looking for a host ground? And still be wanting to be considered for promotion?

Promote Briz as the highest-placed qualified side.

Because they didn't want to tie themselves into a move if they didn't get promoted. If they don't sign up then they can't organise it can they. Instead they put out feelers, met all the other criteria and then would sort out the ground once they had been promoted.

Maesteg, Bristol made the playoffs a couple of years before getting relegated and got better crowds than a lot of the current crop. They had a bad year and didn't recover (partly because a lot of better players seem to have joined Exeter).

HammerofThunor wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Still the obvious question remains unanswered.

How can be at this late point can a club still be looking for a host ground? And still be wanting to be considered for promotion?

Promote Briz as the highest-placed qualified side.

Because they didn't want to tie themselves into a move if they didn't get promoted. If they don't sign up then they can't organise it can they. Instead they put out feelers, met all the other criteria and then would sort out the ground once they had been promoted.

Maesteg, Bristol made the playoffs a couple of years before getting relegated and got better crowds than a lot of the current crop. They had a bad year and didn't recover (partly because a lot of better players seem to have joined Exeter).

Surely the teams that win the championship are the best and them being in the AP would make the AP more competitive?

It depends. If they've got themselves a sugar-daddy who's brought in a load of great players then all it takes is them to lose interest and the collapse happens. The criteria ensure that a well organised, and well structured club that is also playing well is promoted. They're there for the sole reason of stopping teams buying up players without investing in the infrastructure.

The ONLY thing bad about the criteria that I can see is that the current Jeff clubs haven't got a defined timescale to adhere to them by (and as Sam said earlier, it's only Newcastle and Sale that would have failed).

HammerofThunor wrote:It depends. If they've got themselves a sugar-daddy who's brought in a load of great players then all it takes is them to lose interest and the collapse happens. The criteria ensure that a well organised, and well structured club that is also playing well is promoted. They're there for the sole reason of stopping teams buying up players without investing in the infrastructure.

The ONLY thing bad about the criteria that I can see is that the current Jeff clubs haven't got a defined timescale to adhere to them by (and as Sam said earlier, it's only Newcastle and Sale that would have failed).

So it is all about attracting more rich guys to bank roll english rugby clubs?

Sounds like more of an old boys club rather than an organised rugby league. Why not just got for Franchising?

Sorry I obviously not making myself clear. The criteria is to STOP rich fella's buy success for clubs. If they have one that permanently invests in the infrastructure, then that's good. If they just buy in players for promotion that's bad. If a club wants promotion they need to develop their off-field infrastructure so that it is viable at the top. Just like Exeter have done.

I thought I had been clear before but obvious not. Sorry about that

I see, thats what I thought it was there for. To avoid situations like the Richmond RFC case from the late 90's with Ashley Levett.

Doesnt make it any easier for aspiring clubs to get a break though unfortunately.

No but Exeter show that the hard work can pay off. They've worked really hard on and off the pitch and produced a club that is (hopefully) sustainable in the Premiership.

I'm all for franchise licenses given out on a 3 or 4 year basis. Largely based on performance but also infrastructure criteria. It would annoy a lot of clubs who think they deserve a license over other sides (side Widnes and Crusaders in league) but that's always the case.