Shingler tied to Wales

First topic message reminder :

So the Steven Shingler fiasco has finally drawn to a close it has been announced that IRB have rejected SRU and Shingler's appeal against being tied to wales.

The IRB state as Shingler played for Wales u20's against France u20's when both countries had them registered as their 'A' side then Shingler is tied to Wales.

I personally think the right decision has been made. For those of you who think that he was too young to choose a nation to play for by the age of 18 you are a legal adult who can vote, drink, get married, sign contracts among a whole list of things. Most 18 year old adults have to make decisions on their futures in terms of work or education and this is no different.

I think that if Shingler puts his head down and works hard and delivers on some of the potential that he's shown, then he'll get a chance with Wales but he needs to stop making announcements and promises that he'll contradict with other pronouncements (like saying he dreams of being the next Wales no10, then saying he wants to play for Scotland, then saying when Wales are going well, that he realises what he's been missing and wants to be part of the Wales squad more than anything), these things have bit him on the ass severely and bread mistrust.

As Ozzy says it's the coaches job to choose the best squad/players possible to give the best chance of winning - but at the same time there needs to be examples set and lines drawn for the best interests of Welsh rugby (similar to Gats guidelines on foreign based players - now not in force) and the WRU will want to stop other young players from representing other nations if they feel there's too much competition within Wales.

So while I expect Shingler to represent Wales IF he works hard and fulfills his potential (as he could be a useful option at 12 as well), I can see some strongly worded statements coming out of the Wales camp about this subject.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Sugar - do you really want to start going down the route of deciding nationality purely on where you are born, and ignoring where you grew up?

Not at all. They're legitimately qualified to represent Wales.

More than qualified, they were raised in Wales, came through the Welsh rugby system and developed through Wales and in North's case speak's the language and has done everything possible to identify with Wales.

Ohh and he qualifies to represent Wales

You are not seriously comparing Shingler to Henson are you SS. That is ridiculous mate. Shingler is a kid who believing he was still dual qualified wanted to take the option which would have seen him become a full international immediately.

Henson is a 30 year old man who has had chance after chance and has chucked those chances back in the faces of the coaches who gave him them.

There simply is no comparison.

You say that Shingler has disrespected 'his national side' but I don't see that he has. He believed he was dual qualified so in effect had two national sides to choose from. He wanted to choose one which he has subsequently found he can't, so has said he is going to work hard to work his way into the other. Not sure what is disrespectful about that.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:More than qualified, they were raised in Wales, came through the Welsh rugby system and developed through Wales and in North's case speak's the language and has done everything possible to identify with Wales.

Ohh and he qualifies to represent Wales

I think we're in agreement (though I'm not sure that speaking Welsh makes you Welsher). It's good that North has done everything he can to make himself Welsh.

Well when compared to someone whose 1st language is Fijian or Samoan then someone who speaks Welsh 1st language probably has a stronger claim to Welsh nationality.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well when compared to someone whose 1st language is Fijian or Samoan then someone who speaks Welsh 1st language probably has a stronger claim to Welsh nationality.

I guess. Maybe Toby F should learn Welsh?

Maybe - but then I guess he's probably a lot more Welsh than Tuilagi, but then I doubt Wales would every pick Andy....

But you missed my point about the Welsh language - I was merely pointing out that by speaking a nations language it would strengthen their own claim, and show an obvious patratism, rather than weaken/lessen another person's claim if they didn't speak the language.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Maybe - but then I guess he's probably a lot more Welsh than Tuilagi, but then I doubt Wales would every pick Andy....

Wait until he qualifies first!

Re. the language thing. Yeah, I agree, it does show a wish to fit in with a new culture and embrace the nation for which you've qualified.

Shingler shackled shocker!

the ties that bind

ill get my coat...

Ozzy - I was comparing Shingler to Henson, but maybe not quite in the way you took it. ANd also may Cipriani would be a better example. I was trying to say that being the best player around doesn't necessary make you a good choice. International rugby is about representing the people of your country.

Shingler came throught the Welsh system, and was making big noises about representing Wales. Then he threw his hand in with the Scottish, and caused so much agro etc for the WRU. THe disrespect was the way that he (his agents and other mouth peices) came out and argued about how he wasn't informed that he was tied to Wales, and how much the issue was dragged along. If you warned a neighbour that their backdoor is wide open, and then they get burgled and blame you for not warning them, you wouldn't be best pleased with them. Its the same thing. Then he does a U-Turn and expects all to be forgiven and forgotten. He would have to be something really special to have the aggro he caused glossed over.

Also just as a side note, from the way I have heard it the one of the players that disppeared from the Welsh squad under Steve Hansen, even though he was rated as one of the best (if not the best) in his position in the counrty, and the reason given was he was too old. However, it was more the case that his wife (at the time) had been a bit lippy to and about certain members of the WRU and he was dropped because of that. So I would say leaving Shingler out for what he has done would be justified.

sugarNspikes wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Maybe - but then I guess he's probably a lot more Welsh than Tuilagi, but then I doubt Wales would every pick Andy....

Wait until he qualifies first!

Re. the language thing. Yeah, I agree, it does show a wish to fit in with a new culture and embrace the nation for which you've qualified.

He won't qualify, he has been capped already ain't he? (Please say he has).

Shamegler said that he was "naive" re wanting to play for Scotland

whatever that means. Now he has fallen in love with his gaoler.

Stocholm Syndrome it is called

What an ugly ugly episode from all concerned.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Ozzy - I was comparing Shingler to Henson, but maybe not quite in the way you took it. ANd also may Cipriani would be a better example. I was trying to say that being the best player around doesn't necessary make you a good choice. International rugby is about representing the people of your country.

Shingler came throught the Welsh system, and was making big noises about representing Wales. Then he threw his hand in with the Scottish, and caused so much agro etc for the WRU. THe disrespect was the way that he (his agents and other mouth peices) came out and argued about how he wasn't informed that he was tied to Wales, and how much the issue was dragged along. If you warned a neighbour that their backdoor is wide open, and then they get burgled and blame you for not warning them, you wouldn't be best pleased with them. Its the same thing. Then he does a U-Turn and expects all to be forgiven and forgotten. He would have to be something really special to have the aggro he caused glossed over.

Also just as a side note, from the way I have heard it the one of the players that disppeared from the Welsh squad under Steve Hansen, even though he was rated as one of the best (if not the best) in his position in the counrty, and the reason given was he was too old. However, it was more the case that his wife (at the time) had been a bit lippy to and about certain members of the WRU and he was dropped because of that. So I would say leaving Shingler out for what he has done would be justified.

SS - one thing I would say is that inspite of all the idiotic things Hensons done, and how he left the Ospreys in the lurch (and turned his back on them), he was still given another chance for Wales in the England WC warm up game, and he wasn't even playing/playing that well. If he was clearly playing better than the encumbant 10/centre then you can bet Henson would be in the squad now, regardless of past indescretions.

Smirnoff - yeah but Gats has a soft spot for him. Different coaches may have treated him different. And to be honest I doubt that Shingler will be over looked, if he gets good enough, however I personally think he should.

I like your [writers] badge scarletspiderman, it looks real cool.

biltongbek wrote:I like your [writers] badge scarletspiderman, it looks real cool.

My what???

Where did they go? Made me feel important!!!

Carpe Diem wrote:Where did they go? Made me feel important!!!

Sorry, Adam was fiddling around with the badges settings and hit the wrong button, then fixed it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I like your [writers] badge scarletspiderman, it looks real cool.

My what???

Hey, where did your badge go?

The player being dropped because of his wife is not a great analogy either SS. the difference being that he was in the squad and caused a problem (albeit indirectly through his wife) so was dropped as the management felt that they didn't want that in the camp.

Shingler is on the outside looking in. yes I agree, he is going to have to work his socks of to earn himself any chance of a call up, and if it's between him and another player of similar ability and form for a spot I would have no qualms with Gatland or whoever is in charge picking the other fella.

If however he goes away and works hard and at some point in the future he is clearly the best man for the job, then why should he be denied the opportunity over one bad decision that he made when barely out of his teens. What message does that actually send to young players coming through.

That they should have pride in the Welsh shirt? Possibly

That if they make a bad decision as a teenager it will be held against them for life? Possibly as well.

That could breed a culture of fear and resentment which would also not be good for Welsh rugby. The WRU and Gatland need to think very hard about where this goes.

If it was me in charge of the WRU I would sit down with Shingler and tell him that if he wants to be considered he needs to stop making statements to the press about it as all it is doing is getting the Welsh rugby public's back up, and he must be playing at a level far above his competitors. Then send him away and see what the young man is made. Is he good enough, and does he want it enough to hold his tongue. If the answer is yes, then he should be selected in the future, rather than left out to dry for the rest of his life, over a poorly advised decision he's made as a very young man.

Yeah I was all puffing out my chest and thinking "Finally I'm a writer", and now it's all gone

Would you chaps rather (if forced at gun point) pick Henson or Shingler? Purely hypothetical and i promise not to hold your answer against you in the future!

Ozzy - lets look at it as a professional thing. If I were a 16 year old and served my apprenticeship with Tesco and then tried to jump ship to ASDA and failed, would Tesco be expected to take me back with open arms. The answer is no, people hold grudges and don't like being messed about. (Any how I think we both have pretty firm views on this, so I will leave it there and not try to convert you).

Depends on whose playing better/behaving - I'd say Shingler, but only on the assumption that his form improves to international level. I think Henson is too brittle for international rugby, he's had his shot and ballsed it up and is only going to get worse, unfortunately for him but there are a lot of players in front of him now.

Shingler on the other hand is young, just as versatile, and seems to want to play rugby (but he's not sure who for! ) he's also getting game time for LI and can last a whole season (unlike Henson).

I still don't want Shingler near the Wales team for a few years, as Ozzy says he really needs to work hard, shut up and show both penance and the form that'll make him hard to ignore.

Carpe Diem wrote:Would you chaps rather (if forced at gun point) pick Henson or Shingler? Purely hypothetical and i promise not to hold your answer against you in the future!

Of the two I think Shingler would get the nod off me. He has been very dull, caused a bit of a stir (that said most of it was other people not him), and then did a u-turn (but you have to answer interviews). However I think at this moment in time he is a better player than Henson, less likely to get injured, covers the same amounts of positions, and younger. Also seeing as he seems despire to get international recognision, I assume he would jump through hoops to try and get that cap. Another plus is his big brother is in the squad to keep an eye on him and try an stop him form openning his mouth and making himself look dull again. But like I said personally I would rather neither of them.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Personally I think he has made his choice that he wanted to try and get the 'easier' cap and took a gamble that he could sneak into Scotland. Now he has failed he is hoping that he can make it back into the Welsh setup. I really hope they tell him 'Sorry, you made your decision, and made us look bad in doing so, jog on'.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Shingler came throught the Welsh system, and was making big noises about representing Wales. Then he threw his hand in with the Scottish, and caused so much agro etc for the WRU. THe disrespect was the way that he (his agents and other mouth peices) came out and argued about how he wasn't informed that he was tied to Wales, and how much the issue was dragged along. If you warned a neighbour that their backdoor is wide open, and then they get burgled and blame you for not warning them, you wouldn't be best pleased with them. Its the same thing. Then he does a U-Turn and expects all to be forgiven and forgotten. He would have to be something really special to have the aggro he caused glossed over.

Also just as a side note, from the way I have heard it the one of the players that disppeared from the Welsh squad under Steve Hansen, even though he was rated as one of the best (if not the best) in his position in the counrty, and the reason given was he was too old. However, it was more the case that his wife (at the time) had been a bit lippy to and about certain members of the WRU and he was dropped because of that. So I would say leaving Shingler out for what he has done would be justified.

This is spot on. Steve would have to do a hell'uv a lot over the next few years to be on the Wales radar.

He need a snorkel or he will drown!

Maybe we should call him Ahab...

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Maybe we should call him Ahab...

he is a pariah now.

a jeremiah a jezebel who will dance to any old tune and play anyone's flute so long as the piper gets paid. whatever way the wind blows. in the desert.