Shingler tied to Wales

by ieuan Wed May 16, 2012 11:02 am

First topic message reminder :

So the Steven Shingler fiasco has finally drawn to a close it has been announced that IRB have rejected SRU and Shingler's appeal against being tied to wales.

The IRB state as Shingler played for Wales u20's against France u20's when both countries had them registered as their 'A' side then Shingler is tied to Wales.

I personally think the right decision has been made. For those of you who think that he was too young to choose a nation to play for by the age of 18 you are a legal adult who can vote, drink, get married, sign contracts among a whole list of things. Most 18 year old adults have to make decisions on their futures in terms of work or education and this is no different.

by Morgannwg Wed May 16, 2012 2:51 pm

Smirnoff each of your points were brought up months ago (when the fiasco was publicised). You've wasted your time though. If it doesn't start with something along the lines of; "WRU are wrong here.." or "Wales are evil and this is sour grapes from the WRU" then nobody Scottish or English will take any notice.

Got to be honest, I thought the arguement was dead and buried months ago but for some odd reason a few Scots are still bitter about it Shocked

.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed May 16, 2012 2:58 pm

Simple answer is let them have Shingler and we will take Grey Jnr.

by munkian Wed May 16, 2012 3:03 pm

Why do the English even care ?

by Morgannwg Wed May 16, 2012 3:07 pm

A chance to have a pop isn't it.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed May 16, 2012 3:07 pm

munkian wrote:Why do the English even care ?

Because they gat a chance to point out that it isn't just the RFU that try to make things awkward for others. And lets be fair if it was an English lad, and Ireland tried to play him but were not allowed, we Welsh would probably be on here condeming the English (well some would).

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed May 16, 2012 3:09 pm

You can have Grey Jnr or who ever that is. Gray Jr as in Richie Grays brother has Scottish parents and unless he qualifies for Wales through residency won't be playing for them.

The Shingler case is totaly differant due to either :

A) Shingler not understanding the rules.
B) Shingler being poorly advised
C) Scotland selecting him without being aware of the facts.

Either way it's not Shinglers fault. Hence shame on the SRU/WRU and IRB for making such a mess of it.

That better?

Simple fact is noone is looking good out of this episode and Shinglers international career is in tatters.

by Morgannwg Wed May 16, 2012 3:13 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You can have Grey Jnr or who ever that is. Gray Jr as in Richie Grays brother has Scottish parents and unless he qualifies for Wales through residency won't be playing for them.

The Shingler case is totaly differant due to either :

A) Shingler not understanding the rules.
B) Shingler being poorly advised
C) Scotland selecting him without being aware of the facts.

Either way it's not Shinglers fault. Hence shame on the SRU/WRU and IRB for making such a mess of it.

That better?

Simple fact is noone is looking good out of this episode and Shinglers international career is in tatters.

Yeah that's far better. Except you are still wrong in pointing out the WRU are contributors. If sticking to the laws that are laid down by the overall governing body is making a mess of it then I think Rugby Union might be failing.

by bluestonevedder Wed May 16, 2012 3:14 pm

Morgannwg wrote:A chance to have a pop isn't it.

With all due respect Morgannwg, you're the one who brought up 'Saffacens' and referred to England as 'South Africa B' on a thread about Wales and Scotland. There's no need for that at any time, let alone on a topic that doesn't even concern English rugby.

It's your sort of attitude that gets amplified and creates the horrible rifts between rugby fans.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed May 16, 2012 3:19 pm

RuggerRadge - At least you work out who I meant even if my spelling is dire, and he was a poor example. Problem is I couldn't think of any Scottish U20s player with welsh heritage off the top of my head, so I picked someone that would actually be useful instead.

The whole issue is a farce, however I don't think there is a single innocent party in the mess. Shingler (or any player for that matter) should not pull on a national jersey unless they intend on representing that country for good. The SRU should have checked up on the rules and regs before officially naming Shingler in the squad. The WRU should have made it perfectly transparent to all playrs that the moment they played against France U20s they were no longer eligible to play for anyone else. The agents should have made sure that they were not talking out of their bums when thay came out and told the SRU that he was eligible. And most of all the IRB should have said either 'yes he is free to play for Scotland' or 'no he is unable to play for anyone but Wales' and then drawn a line under it as the end of the matter instead of allowing it to drag on and on.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed May 16, 2012 3:23 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
Yeah that's far better. Except you are still wrong in pointing out the WRU are contributors. If sticking to the laws that are laid down by the overall governing body is making a mess of it then I think Rugby Union might be failing.

The WRU are contributers by not having an "A" side. Lots of players play for U20s of other sides only realize as they get a bit older their hearts trully lie elsewhere.

Max and Thom Evans did a great interview on playing for England at age grade and the reasons for playing for Scotland at senior level. Linking thier decisionto play for Scotland as a dying wish from their Scottish grandfather.

Family's have a strong influence on young guys, clearly Shinglers' Scottish borders mother had a strong influence on his decision to play for Scotland, (HE IS HALF SCOTTISH BY THE WAY) who are the WRU to say who he can or can't play for at senior level rugby.

The laws need to be changed to keep Age grade rugby a seperate entity from Senior rugby. If Wales are too poor to have an "A" side then they go without.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed May 16, 2012 3:28 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Family's have a strong influence on young guys, clearly Shinglers' Scottish borders mother had a strong influence on his decision to play for Scotland, (HE IS HALF SCOTTISH BY THE WAY)

I can see where your coming from. However if you have strong family links to somewhere you don't 'visit every year or so' as he was quoted as saying (around the time this all kicked off, can't remember where or to who it was said). My misses is from Norfolk, and I have to go there a good two or three times a year.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed May 16, 2012 3:29 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:RuggerRadge - At least you work out who I meant even if my spelling is dire, and he was a poor example. Problem is I couldn't think of any Scottish U20s player with welsh heritage off the top of my head, so I picked someone that would actually be useful instead.

The whole issue is a farce, however I don't think there is a single innocent party in the mess. Shingler (or any player for that matter) should not pull on a national jersey unless they intend on representing that country for good. The SRU should have checked up on the rules and regs before officially naming Shingler in the squad. The WRU should have made it perfectly transparent to all playrs that the moment they played against France U20s they were no longer eligible to play for anyone else. The agents should have made sure that they were not talking out of their bums when thay came out and told the SRU that he was eligible. And most of all the IRB should have said either 'yes he is free to play for Scotland' or 'no he is unable to play for anyone but Wales' and then drawn a line under it as the end of the matter instead of allowing it to drag on and on.

But apparently Wales did make it clear that he would be stuck to Wales if he played (hence why Morgan didn't play for England Saxons until he was sure he wanted to comit to them)

by Morgannwg Wed May 16, 2012 3:33 pm

Pal, our economy is pathetic and is still reliant on other economies. If we can't afford an A team then we literally can not afford an A team.

I'm sure if he decided to play for Scotland at his mothers wish then it would have been drummed into him a lot sooner than 20 years of age? Seems a bit odd that's all. Say what you like but it is clear that Shingler and the SRU are the ones to bollix up the situation and then esculate it.

"who are the WRU to say who he can or can't play for at senior level rugby."

The WRU just pointed out the rules that he was ineligible for anyone but Wales. Which was 100% correct as proven. If it went ahead and the IRB started handing out punishments for an illegal act then they may well have held the WRU partly responsible. They have done nothing at all wrong.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed May 16, 2012 3:35 pm

To be honest when your talking about harsh decisions from the IRB like this lets not forget Wales were also on the recieving end once

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/WE+WANT+DUNCAN.-a0115503889 wrote:Alan Phillips, the Wales team manager, last night confirmed the process of getting Bell will start this week.

'Myself and Steve Lewis met with Duncan last week,' said Phillips.

'Following on from that meeting we will be sending off a letter to the IRB IRB

See: Industrial Revenue Bond this week.

'Duncan has made it pretty clear what his intentions are and we will do our best for him.' Wales are fully prepared to launch a legal challenge, if required, to back his case.

The 29-year-old tight head prop, who has been the cornerstone of the Bath pack, is seen as the ideal player to shore up the Wales pack.

But Bell played for Clive Woodward's England on the Tour to Hell in 1998 against a New Zealand New Zealand (zē`lənd), island country (2005 est. pop. 4,035,000), 104,454 sq mi (270,534 sq km), in the S Pacific Ocean, over 1,000 mi (1,600 km) SE of Australia. The capital is Wellington; the largest city and leading port is Auckland. Academy side.

And in addition, the former Ponty prop was on the bench for the 76-0 defeat to the Wallabies in Brisbane on the same tour.

Under the new IRB regulations introduced in 2000, a player selected for a tour party or who has played in a tour game cannot then play for another country.

But Bell, who lives in Wales and travels to play for Zurich Premiership leaders Bath, DIDN'T win a cap for England.

And the WRU will exploit a loophole in the rules used by New Zealand rugby bosses to allow Aussie-born Steve Devine to play for the All Blacks in 2002.

The scrum-half had played for the Australian Sevens side in 1998 before the new stricter 2000 regulations were introduced.

Wales will cite the Devine case as a precedent to beef-up Bell's claim for Wales.

by formerly known as Sam Wed May 16, 2012 3:36 pm

Though I understand why he moved, he was on a development contract at the Scarlets, and hadn't yet been offered a full contract, LI (a big HEC club) came in an offered him a LOT more money and promise of gametime in a new environment

Not hard to offer a lot more money than a development contract though is it. LI won't have made him a rich man. Dan Bowden the LI 10 and captain for parts of the season has joined Tigers on a deal that will not be worth more than £100k a year (Tigers could only afford to offer that much to Twelvetrees what with the salary cap etc and Bowden is a direct replacement). That was enough to lure away one of the big LI stars (albeit coupled with the attraction of finals and guarenteed HEC rugby) so young Shingler will not be on more than that and one would probably expect his salary to be less than that. Just thought I'd point that out.

Maybe he should've stayed at Scarlets if they've had that many problems but at the time he signed for LI he'd have just seen Priestland stepping up, the three centres at Scarlets all playing well and Jones looking reliable.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed May 16, 2012 3:36 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:
Yeah that's far better. Except you are still wrong in pointing out the WRU are contributors. If sticking to the laws that are laid down by the overall governing body is making a mess of it then I think Rugby Union might be failing.

The WRU are contributers by not having an "A" side. Lots of players play for U20s of other sides only realize as they get a bit older their hearts trully lie elsewhere.

Max and Thom Evans did a great interview on playing for England at age grade and the reasons for playing for Scotland at senior level. Linking thier decisionto play for Scotland as a dying wish from their Scottish grandfather.

Family's have a strong influence on young guys, clearly Shinglers' Scottish borders mother had a strong influence on his decision to play for Scotland, (HE IS HALF SCOTTISH BY THE WAY) who are the WRU to say who he can or can't play for at senior level rugby.

The laws need to be changed to keep Age grade rugby a seperate entity from Senior rugby. If Wales are too poor to have an "A" side then they go without.

But you must wonder what his mother must have thought when this apparently 'passionate half-Scottish' man stated repeatedly in the press and on TV including in an advert in a Wales shirt that he wished to play for Wales and wanted to knuckle down and battle his way into the Wales team.

And it's not up to me, you or the IRB to say who he can and can't play for - indeed under the rules he could have played for Zimbawe if he'd wanted to all he'd need to have done is move there for 3 years and claim residency, AS LONG AS he'd abided by the IRB rules and hadn't played in an eligebility game for another nation - it's the IRB who are telling him that he can now only play for Wales.

The laws also aren't there to protect Wales, they are there to protect all the Tier 2 and Tier 3 teams who can't afford A team's. Do you want to say to these budding nations "you haven't got enough money so tough luck on you"?

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed May 16, 2012 3:38 pm

Maybe my argument is being lost somewhere.

Lets just say the roles were 100% reversed.

The Shilgler lads were raised in the Borders instead of south Wales. They represent Scotland at age grade rugby making good progress. They both make one of the Scottish pro teams.

Aaron Plays well and looks set for Scotland senior caps. Steven on the other hand is struggling to get a game and in the hope of improving his chances moves to London Irish to increase his exposure.

He realises while at LI that he is behind a lot of players to get into a test Jersey for Scotland so calls home :

Mum : "keep at it son, chin up etc etc etc, your dad wants a wee word Steven"

Dad : "Ever thought about playing for Wales? I would be really proud of you, they are looking for a better Fly half since Priestland is playing rubbish. I'm Welsh so in essence you are half Welsh and qualify through me."

Steve : "Good shout, I wonder if Gatland would be interested."

Hypothetical I know but I would wager that something very similar to this transpired, but in the opposite way.

Under these circumstances, If Scotland had an abundence of talent in this position I would not be bothered if Shingler decided to play for Wales.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed May 16, 2012 3:41 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Though I understand why he moved, he was on a development contract at the Scarlets, and hadn't yet been offered a full contract, LI (a big HEC club) came in an offered him a LOT more money and promise of gametime in a new environment

Not hard to offer a lot more money than a development contract though is it. LI won't have made him a rich man. Dan Bowden the LI 10 and captain for parts of the season has joined Tigers on a deal that will not be worth more than £100k a year (Tigers could only afford to offer that much to Twelvetrees what with the salary cap etc and Bowden is a direct replacement). That was enough to lure away one of the big LI stars (albeit coupled with the attraction of finals and guarenteed HEC rugby) so young Shingler will not be on more than that and one would probably expect his salary to be less than that. Just thought I'd point that out.

Maybe he should've stayed at Scarlets if they've had that many problems but at the time he signed for LI he'd have just seen Priestland stepping up, the three centres at Scarlets all playing well and Jones looking reliable.

Exactly thats what I meant - he may not be on megabucks but was on more than the Scarlets were paying him and more than (probably) the Scarlets could offer him for a full contract. In club rugby terms it was a no brainer - but if you have a burning desire to break into the Wales team then going to an English club (and being outside of the goldfish bowl) as opposed to fighting it out with the current encumbant right in front of the selectors eyes, it's maybe not such a good move.
Depends on what you want - personally I think it's a good move for his professional development and I hope he comes back to the Scarlets once his contract is over and helps us push on.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed May 16, 2012 3:44 pm

Radge - I can see where you are coming from, but I personally don't like seeing welsh internationals who talk with a non-welsh accent. Whether they be Brent Cockbain etc. So I wouldn't have a problem with the IRB ruling him out.

Before any of this began, and before he was called up into the Scottish squad, did you know anything about him bar he was a welsh under 20s international? I don't think many folk knew he mad a Scottish mother. So goin by your boot on the other foot, I don't think I would want someone who I didn't even know was Welsh (or half or quarter or whatever the requirement is to qualify) to be playing for the Welsh national side because his prospects else where are looking grim.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed May 16, 2012 3:47 pm

Smirnoff - I can't remember the figures (I think 30k year one, and 40k year 2) but it was considereably more than we could offer at hte time.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed May 16, 2012 3:47 pm

I must admit I knew nothing about him, but he seems to have placed a lot on the line to try and wear navy blue, and to be honest if you have such a huge desire to play for Scotland as to alienate yourself from the WRU, jeapordise your involvement with them and face the spectre of playing against your own blood once a year, damn right I want to see him play for Scotland.

regardless of his accent.

by Knowsit17 Wed May 16, 2012 3:47 pm

Just because he's not knocking on the door for Wales at this specific moment isn't an excuse for anyone to up and opportunistically pinch him even though we developed him his entire career. If he didn't want to risk such a ****storm he shouldn't have made vows and gestures he couldn't stick to, plain and simple.

Correct decision btw and no, I don't feel sympathetic for his plight either. I don't see why anyone should when all this drama was ultimately brought about through his own actions. I've got no complaints with him having a torn allegiance. But if he didn't want this he shouldn't have donned Welsh colours for advertisement, claimed he wanted to fight his way into the Welsh side and worst of all pretended he hadn't heard them tell him that playing against France would tie him to Wales.

If he never plays international rugby then let it just be a lesson to all youngsters to not make false promises and to know what they're getting into.

by Morgannwg Wed May 16, 2012 3:47 pm

Radge, that all sounds pathetic to be honest, makes it seem like your desperate to go around nicking players. Andy Robinson is certainly a fan of doing so. No offence meant mate. I feel I should leave the arguement now anyway. I've commented on it enough times today and in the past.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed May 16, 2012 3:48 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Maybe my argument is being lost somewhere.

Lets just say the roles were 100% reversed.

The Shilgler lads were raised in the Borders instead of south Wales. They represent Scotland at age grade rugby making good progress. They both make one of the Scottish pro teams.

Aaron Plays well and looks set for Scotland senior caps. Steven on the other hand is struggling to get a game and in the hope of improving his chances moves to London Irish to increase his exposure.

He realises while at LI that he is behind a lot of players to get into a test Jersey for Scotland so calls home :

Mum : "keep at it son, chin up etc etc etc, your dad wants a wee word Steven"

Dad : "Ever thought about playing for Wales? I would be really proud of you, they are looking for a better Fly half since Priestland is playing rubbish. I'm Welsh so in essence you are half Welsh and qualify through me."

Steve : "Good shout, I wonder if Gatland would be interested."

Hypothetical I know but I would wager that something very similar to this transpired, but in the opposite way.

Under these circumstances, If Scotland had an abundence of talent in this position I would not be bothered if Shingler decided to play for Wales.

I think you're missing the point here - it's not (and never has been) the WRU's decision on whether to let Shingler play for Scotland, it's the IRB's - by the IRB's rules he can't play for Scotland as he's played for Wales u20's.

Wales are also concious that everyone knows these rules as these are the current rules in place and ensure that any other team doesn't try and pinch the other members of our u20's team (then and now) where any other sort of eligablity issues are present, trying to state the Shingler case as a precedent for overturning the current IRB rules.

At this moment in time if Scotland try and play Shingler (like they tried to do in the WC warm up games) then they will get fined by the IRB for fielding an illegible player - that's the IRB rules, nothing to do with Wales, Shinglers wishes, Scotlands needs for a FH or any other issue.

by Smirnoffpriest Wed May 16, 2012 3:50 pm

I'm with Morgannwg (for once LOL) I'm leaving this thread as all the facts are stated throughout this and other threads and where everything has been gone over lots and lots.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed May 16, 2012 3:54 pm

Morgannwg wrote:Radge, that all sounds ~~pathetic~~ true to be honest, makes it seem like your ~~desperate~~ logical to go around ~~nicking~~ recruiting players who are not in consideration for test caps from the country of their father's birth place. Andy Robinson is certainly a fan of doing so. No offence meant mate. I feel I should leave the arguement now anyway. I've commented on it enough times today and in the past.

Fixed that for you.

Just for the record who has Andy Robinson "nicked" to play for Scotland?

by Comfort Wed May 16, 2012 3:56 pm

beshocked wrote:Double standards from Wales.

They are absolutely desperate to get players from abroad. For example Tried to turn a born and bred Englishman into a Welsh no 8 (Ben Morgan)

I got down to this comment and stopped reading.

How far off the mark that is regarding Morgan. He was picked up and developed in Wales, but being a born n bred Gloucester man always had dreams of playing for England, its no secret Wales would have wanted him to play for them after developing him into the player he is.

I've said all I have to say about this Shingler case, and frankly, its the worst case of player mercenary (see Flutey, Hape etc) I have ever seen. In the same year as deciding he was scottish, he was the face of a welsh rugby advert (im talking face on billboards across the country, being billed as the future of welsh rugby) and then he was interviewed about his future, stating his excitement about the prospect of getting involved in the welsh set-up and how it was his plan for the year.

It was also made clear to him that by playing for the u20s he would be tied to Wales whether he signed the agreement of that or not as those were the rules. This was made very clear to all the players in that group after the Jarvis/Loxton debacle from the year before.

Sorry, but i dont feel sorry for him, in the slightest.

by Knowsit17 Wed May 16, 2012 4:06 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:Radge, that all sounds ~~pathetic~~ true to be honest, makes it seem like your ~~desperate~~ logical to go around ~~nicking~~ recruiting players who are not in consideration for test caps from the country of their father's birth place. Andy Robinson is certainly a fan of doing so. No offence meant mate. I feel I should leave the arguement now anyway. I've commented on it enough times today and in the past.

Fixed that for you.

Just for the record who has Andy Robinson "nicked" to play for Scotland?

Not being in consideration for caps at 20 years old doesn't mean you'll never be. If people went around nicking players who "weren't in consideration" through not being developed that far yet, we wouldn't have very good strength in depth would we!

Mark Bennett isn't in consideration for Scotland yet, does that mean we can have him if we discover he's got some ties to Wales?

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed May 16, 2012 4:10 pm

He doesn't though. It seems a lot of the Welsh posters here forget that his Mother is Scottish.

It's not some tenuous link from generations past, it's his Mum!

If Bennet had Welsh blood and was not in the frame for Scotland caps I would have no issue with him playing for Wales. It's a proffesional game and if Bennet felt passionate about playing for Wales why would I or anyone else have an issue with it.

We all have choices to make. Shingler made his and it seems to have been a bad one. It's a shame for him.

by munkian Wed May 16, 2012 4:12 pm

WRU statement from their Evil HQ on Mount Doom devil

The WRU has welcomed the IRB ruling which confirms that the Union has complied fully with all regulations and acted properly when informing players of their qualification status.The IRB Council has confirmed the decision of the IRB Regulations Committee that the Union acted correctly in ruling that the U20 international Steven Shingler had been captured by Wales in accordance with IRB regulations.
They ruled that the Welsh Rugby Union acted correctly within all regulations and according to proper procedure over the issue. An appeal by the Scottish Rugby Union questioning the decision of the IRB Regulations Committee was therefore dismissed.

Under the IRB Regulations Committee decision, Shingler was deemed to have been captured by Wales having represented the Wales Under 20 team against the France Under 20 team in a 2011 Six Nations fixture. Both Wales and France had individually designated their Under 20 teams as their next senior national representative teams, as is permitted by IRB Regulation 8.

In a separate decision the IRB Council confirmed the status of Under 20 teams as being eligible for nomination as next senior national representative teams, meaning that any player playing in an Under 20 match in which both teams have been nominated will continue to be captured for eligibility purposes for the nation they appear for.

The WRU's Head of Legal Affairs, Rhodri Lewis, said: "We are delighted that the IRB Council has ratified the decision of the IRB Regulations Committee, that confirmed that the Welsh Rugby Union had complied fully with all of its obligations under the IRB Regulations. It was extremely important to achieve clarity on matters relating to the regulations regarding player eligibility for both governing bodies and players."

The WRU Head of Rugby, Joe Lydon, added: "It was vitally important that the WRU defended its stance over this issue. It was certainly not just about the individual player concerned but a case of needing total clarity on the situation, both retrospectively and going forward.

"The key factor for us was determining that we have acted properly, and continue to act properly as a governing body over this issue. If we had left any doubt over this debate then many players, across many Unions, would have been left in a state of confusion over their international status.

"The IRB ruling has now been confirmed and the WRU will continue to follow the operational policy we already have in place which ensures all players are fully informed of the IRB regulations and their status within them."

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed May 16, 2012 4:19 pm

You can be as satirical as you like Munkian, but this is the lads career we are on about here.

The article doesn't exactly welcome him into the fold again does it. He now faces another period of International exile untill either Gatland caps him or this obscene loophole is closed by a governing body with more clout than the IRB.

by RubyGuby Wed May 16, 2012 4:24 pm

He now faces another period of International exile untill either Gatland caps him or this obscene loophole is closed by a governing body with more clout than the IRB.

If the lad shows himself to be good enough for Wales he will be picked - simple thumbsup

by munkian Wed May 16, 2012 4:25 pm

So we have a player who is LEGALLY capped for us but not good enough to knock other 10s out of the squad so we should let him play for a Tier 3 team because he loves his dear odl Mum.

I may have been satirical but you are being sentimental.

by RubyGuby Wed May 16, 2012 4:27 pm

I can just imagine the Scots if Hogg had a welsh mother and we did something similar - They would be fuming, haggis everywhere thumbsup

by ieuan Wed May 16, 2012 4:30 pm

I wish i hadn't started this topic now.

Shingler is tied to the WRU by the regulations of the IRB and this has been confirmed by the the rejection of the SRU's and Shingler's appeal against the IRB's initial decision.

It doesn't matter that he has a Scottish mother or an English farther all that matters is that he played a in a game that tied him to Wales for the rest of his career. If Wales had let Scotland pick him and play him in the six nations and then it was brought to the IRB's attention that the player had previously been tied to wales Scotland would of received a hefty fine for playing an ineligible player.

by gmclachl Wed May 16, 2012 4:32 pm

It must have been an extremely cramped dressing room when Shingler was asked to sign the document and informed if he played he would be tied to Wales, because 90% of the Welsh posters in this place seem to be so well informed that they must have been there.

by Effervescing Elephant Wed May 16, 2012 4:33 pm

With the Welsh on this one. They were legally obliged to challenge the SRU otherwise both Unions would have faced a fine. Whether young Shingler was aware of his being tied in or not is immaterial. He was legally tied to Wales. Wales could do nothing else, they may even have been happy for him to play for Scotland (okay stretching it a bit here!) but they had to report the 'poach'.

by Comfort Wed May 16, 2012 4:33 pm

Radge,

no problem with his mum being scottish, but please read my previous post.

Scottish mother or not, he obviously has only very recently "felt scottish".

by munkian Wed May 16, 2012 4:38 pm

gmclachl wrote:It must have been an extremely cramped dressing room when Shingler was asked to sign the document and informed if he played he would be tied to Wales, because 90% of the Welsh posters in this place seem to be so well informed that they must have been there.

If you read the WRU statement like we have then they haven't done anything wrong and all players were clearly informed. So back off Very Happy

by gmclachl Wed May 16, 2012 4:40 pm

munkian wrote:
gmclachl wrote:It must have been an extremely cramped dressing room when Shingler was asked to sign the document and informed if he played he would be tied to Wales, because 90% of the Welsh posters in this place seem to be so well informed that they must have been there.

If you read the WRU statement like we have then they haven't done anything wrong and all players were clearly informed. So back off

Oh sorry, must have missed that. I will get back in my box. ;-)

by doctornickolas Wed May 16, 2012 4:51 pm

I wonder if every one of the 17 times he pulled on a Welsh jersey over 2 seasons he was in fact dreaming that it was a Scottish jersey.

by munkian Wed May 16, 2012 5:01 pm

doctornickolas wrote:I wonder if every one of the 17 times he pulled on a Welsh jersey over 2 seasons he was in fact dreaming that it was a Scottish jersey.

Exactly, he must've been thinking 'I wish I could set on a bench whilst that Aussie human speedbump misses another penalty'

by maestegmafia Wed May 16, 2012 5:23 pm

Unfortunately if Stephen Shingler did want to play for Scotland rather than Wales like his brother Aaron Shingler, then he has been subjected to the rules being affirmed and enforced with no retribution by the IRB.

The IRB rulings were both quick and conclusive and therefor this whole scenario was unnecessary.

It is all clear now and players in Wales know that if they play for Wales U20's against an U20's International team that does not have a second senior side that have played in the last twenty four months, (which encompasses every single nation with an Under 20s team bar England, Ireland, Scotland and Italy) then they can not play for a second nation afterwards.

As said above, this doesnt stop Shingler playing international rugby, he just has to try to get in the Welsh team.

A big part of his decision to make his intended position known to the SRU may well have been the obvious thought that he is a long way down the Welsh senior pecking order as a flyhalf or centre, two positions Scotland lack depth. This may well have been suggested to him by his agent who encouraged him to look at offers at English Premiership clubs, he accepted London Irish's, another key factor in making his chances of Welsh selection more difficult as the English Premiership clubs governing body, the PRL, lack any respect for International rugby.

If he has Welsh international ambitions he may do well by moving to fullback where he has also played many times with much skill before, Wales do not have a huge amount of depth at 15.

by HammerofThunor Wed May 16, 2012 5:57 pm

maestegmafia wrote:It is all clear now and players in Wales know that if they play for Wales U20's against an U20's International team that does not have a second senior side that have played in the last twenty four months, (which encompasses every single nation with an Under 20s team bar England, Ireland, Scotland and Italy) then they can not play for a second nation afterwards.

Well, except for the Argentinian Jaguars, Fijian Warriors, Samoa A and Tonga A (not exactly inspired names the last two).

http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/regional/newsid=2061517.html

The Jaguars played last June and I can't see anything to say they've disbanded. Fiji, Tonga and Samoa A sides have all competed in the Pacific Rugby Cup this year. Have the Junior All Blacks been official disbanded or do they just not play? Same with Australia A. Springboks have always had the Emerging Springboks and they're referred to as their second side but Barritt played for them so not sure. So of the 12 sides in the U20 JWC at least 7 have official A sides.

by Taffineastbourne Wed May 16, 2012 9:17 pm

I suspect RR is an English wind-up merchant just stirring things.Anyone rational would see precisely what has gone on and see where the blame/fault lies.
To blame the WRU is risable.
Shingler and the SRU have got what they deserved.
If Shingler plays well enough ,I hope he gets a Welsh cap if he deserves it.

by HammerofThunor Wed May 16, 2012 9:40 pm

By RR do you mean RuggerRadge? Pretty committed, deep cover, WUM if you think he's English.

by Taffineastbourne Wed May 16, 2012 9:51 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:By RR do you mean RuggerRadge? Pretty committed, deep cover, WUM if you think he's English.

I have never met a daft Scotsman.It is for this reason that I suspect him as being an imposter.Deep cover is well-known these days.Stay alert and take nothing for granted. Wink

by HammerofThunor Wed May 16, 2012 9:55 pm

Yeah but we're talking something like 5 years waiting for this moment. Much more likely he's a Scot who isn't happy just poaching players from England and wants some of the Welsh Grand Slam magic

by Taffineastbourne Wed May 16, 2012 10:04 pm

They have tried Oz and Kiwiland and not faired too well.Perhaps if they went for a few more Scots they may surprise themselves.It worked ok in the past!
Back to Shingler,it has been done to death & what the WRU are meant to have done wrong has never been spotlighted.RR seeks to vilify them and Lord knows they have there faults.On this one they seem pretty water-tight but still RR has a pop.Perhaps he needs to look closer to home if he is a genuine Scot.

by PenfroPete Wed May 16, 2012 10:06 pm

3 little words - Derwyn feicin Jones.

Blydi AGENTS !!!

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