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If Premiership Rugby had got what it now wants 7 years ago

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HammerofThunor
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If Premiership Rugby had got what it now wants 7 years ago Empty If Premiership Rugby had got what it now wants 7 years ago

Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu May 31, 2012 2:35 pm

OK if, just for the sake of argument lets go with the 20 team model based on leagues rather than Countries/Unions.

Had a look at the last 7 league tables. Which is the "period of Irish dominance" in the HC

No Italian team or Connacht or the Dragons would have qualified automatically. (Italians only in the last 2 leagues)

Presuming that the rule would be "If a Rabo team wins the HC or Amlin, 7th in the Rabo qualifies" then

06 Ospreys. 08 Ospreys. 09 Glasgow. 11 Dragons. 12 Cardiff would have been the extra teams from the 5 HC wins.

Obviously if this had been in place a Rabo team MAY have won the Amlin other than Cardiff in 2010

Cardiff would have brought the Dragons in with their 2010 win.

Leinster and Munster would be the only teams to have qualified AUTOMATICALLY every time. Ospreys would have been in every HC also courtesy of Munster in 06 & 08. Also Cardiff courtesy of Leinster this year.

There would always have been a minimum of 2 Irish teams and 2 Welsh teams

In fact there would have been 3 Irish or 3 Welsh every year.

Despite winning 5 out of 7 HCs no Irish team would have helped another into the HC

Ulster would have been in 4 out of 7. Llanelli would have been in 6 out of 7

Scottish teams would have had 7 automatic places plus Glasgow in 09 Giving 4 places each to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Soooo……. 6 automatic places per year = 42 places + 6 extra places for winning HC or Amlin = 48 spots in the HC

7 each for Leinster, Munster, Ospreys and Cardiff.

6 for Scarlets

4 for Ulster, Glasgow and Edinburgh

2 for the Dragons (Courtesy of Cardiff and Leinster)

Not trying to prove anything with this big ream of stats. If anyone else wants to..... off you go.

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Post by Brendan Thu May 31, 2012 2:47 pm

Interesting read. I am sure that it would be in line with the Aviva and T14.

It shows that the Rabo is like any other league, it is generally the same at the top and bottom with the middle moving the most.

I think that if you had the seven this year in the HC then what is to stop Edinburgh doing what they did this year and win the Amlin and get HC.

Also Connacht have often made it out of their group or just missed out (two years ago they lost out to Quinns) so I think that most Rabo teams to miss out would be hoping for a top group place and home Quarter.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:32 pm

Just to round this out.

These are the teams that would have been in and out of the tournament

2006/7

Out
Castres Olympique
Border Reivers
Rugby Calvisan
Overmach Parma
Benetton Treviso

In
Newcastle

2007/8

Out
Dragons
Edinburgh Rugby
Glasgow Warriors
Viadana
Benetton Treviso

In
Montauban

2008/9

Out
Ulster Rugby
Dragons
Benetton Treviso
Rugby Calvisano
Montauban

In
London Irish

2009/10

Out
Benetton Treviso
Newport Gwent Dragons
Viadana
Ulster Rugby

In
None

2010/11

Out
Scarlets
Ulster
Aironi Rugby
Benetton Treviso

In
None

2011/12

Out
Aironi
Benetton Treviso
Connacht
Edinburgh
Glasgow

In
Dragons

2012/13

Out
Connacht
Treviso
Aironi Rugby
Edinburgh

In
None

This year Semifinalists Embra would get dumped out for their poor league form. Connacht and the Italians would never have been in the HC.

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Post by Portnoy Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:40 pm

Just as a matter of interest Jenny,

How did you work out your figures and how did you construct the article title?

Sources please - just so that they can be scrutinised and checked.
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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:04 am

Portnoy wrote:Just as a matter of interest Jenny,

How did you work out your figures and how did you construct the article title?

Sources please - just so that they can be scrutinised and checked.

Simple.

For the 1st post I just got the last 7 Rabo/Magners league tables, and the list of HC/Amlin winners, and applied the qualification processes that the English/French are looking for to them.

i.e. 6 teams from each league plus an extra one for each HC/Amlin win. Then I subtracted the ones who would not have qualified.

For the last post, I got the listings of the qualifying teams for each of the last 7 years.

Got the last 7 league tables from the other 2 leagues, and used the same process, and listed the teams who would have lost out or gained a place.

The last 2 places used to be decided on which of the English, French or Italian teams went the farthest in the HC, and by a playoff between the highest non qualified Magners team and the highest Italian losing semifinalist.

This 2nd rule resulted in 3 Italian teams one year.

The 1st rule meant that the Amlin winners did not pull in another team from their league. Hence the addition of teams in the earlier years. eg Newcastle and L Irish would have been added in 07 and 08.

Article title? England are looking for these rules. This is what would have happened if they had been applied for the last 7 years. (When Irish teams have won 5 HCs)

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Post by Suspicious lurker Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:43 pm

This is whats annoying me at the minute, everyone is worried about what will happen if the english and French pull out (no one gets pregnant weyhay) but surely on results from the past seven years its us Irish who should have the power. A heino without Leinster munster and ulster.

Now to me that's a devalued cup
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Post by HammerofThunor Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:59 pm

Hoog wrote:This is whats annoying me at the minute, everyone is worried about what will happen if the english and French pull out (no one gets pregnant weyhay) but surely on results from the past seven years its us Irish who should have the power. A heino without Leinster munster and ulster.

Now to me that's a devalued cup

So you think English and French people mainly watch the HEC for the Irish? You must have lived in London too long, typical English arrogance Whistle

From a personal point of view I will watch whatever competition the English clubs are playing in, be it HEC, an Anglo-French cup or an English only cup. Whether the Provinces are involved doesn't mean squat to me. I imagine that view is shared by a lot of supporters in England and France (and most other countries really). The sponsor and TV money go to largest viewing potential. That may annoy but but it change change the fact.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:59 pm

To me the whole notion of pulling-out, weakening, or reducing the HEC is silly. The reality is the English and French are going nowhere. And, obviously, the Heineken Cup without any of the member/partner countries loses value. Everyone loses a lot of money in that scenario. And let's not forget that Heineken, who have been a fantastic sponsor/partner have a lot to say about how this shakes out, as well. They are going to protect their investment. And they have been very quiet - publicly.

In the last 10 years the Heineken Cup has grown in stature, importance, and interest to be much more than it ever was. No one can afford to pull out at this stage. This is simply the start of negotiations. Who knows where it will end up. My feeling is not much change from now.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:40 pm

I don't think that much Will change either. not sure I like 16 or 20 teams in the heino. but if you have the top 8 from each league, it is possible to leave out the amlin winners. probable that you leave out at least 1 Italian and Scottish, if not both. that is not good for European rugby at either national or club level.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:46 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Hoog wrote:This is whats annoying me at the minute, everyone is worried about what will happen if the english and French pull out (no one gets pregnant weyhay) but surely on results from the past seven years its us Irish who should have the power. A heino without Leinster munster and ulster.

Now to me that's a devalued cup

So you think English and French people mainly watch the HEC for the Irish? You must have lived in London too long, typical English arrogance Whistle

From a personal point of view I will watch whatever competition the English clubs are playing in, be it HEC, an Anglo-French cup or an English only cup. Whether the Provinces are involved doesn't mean squat to me. I imagine that view is shared by a lot of supporters in England and France (and most other countries really). The sponsor and TV money go to largest viewing potential. That may annoy but but it change change the fact.

The largest viewing potential would keep teams from all countries involved, if you think that an English and French cup is going to have anywhere near the sort of money involved as pan a European cup then you are kidding yourself. I can't see the English and French getting their way as it would eliminate at least Italy out of the cup and possibly Scotland as well which will undoubtedly mean less money. You say the provinces being involved doesn't mean squat - I don't think the people making all the money out of the HC will agree.


Last edited by Artful_Dodger on Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Suspicious lurker Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:48 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Hoog wrote:This is whats annoying me at the minute, everyone is worried about what will happen if the english and French pull out (no one gets pregnant weyhay) but surely on results from the past seven years its us Irish who should have the power. A heino without Leinster munster and ulster.

Now to me that's a devalued cup

So you think English and French people mainly watch the HEC for the Irish? You must have lived in London too long, typical English arrogance Whistle

From a personal point of view I will watch whatever competition the English clubs are playing in, be it HEC, an Anglo-French cup or an English only cup. Whether the Provinces are involved doesn't mean squat to me. I imagine that view is shared by a lot of supporters in England and France (and most other countries really). The sponsor and TV money go to largest viewing potential. That may annoy but but it change change the fact.



I'm far from believing that the Franco-English only watch for the Irish clubs, the point I'm just trying to make its the fact that we could easily threaten to pull out as well and considering our standing in the competition in the past seven years and the practicallities of trying to sell a competition without the champions in it and your going to hit complications. It's just a fact now that the threat either of these two big nations pulling out doesn't hold as much sway as it used to.
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Post by HammerofThunor Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:53 pm

But the threat has nothing to do with them being the best teams which they're clearly not). It's the financial clout. If the Irish pulled out I imagine a 50:50 split of the money raised from an Anglo-French competition would be larger than the current split. So not really a threat there.

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Post by Suspicious lurker Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:58 pm

This is a point that confuses me, this financial clout that the English clubs bring from tv revenue, does it actually exist?? You've got 6 English clubs in the heino next season and 9 from Ireland Wales and Scotland.

Now Sky cover all these countries so surly nine trumps six no??


This is a serious question I'm genuinely confused about this tv revenue the English are on about
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Post by HammerofThunor Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:03 pm

Yes, that logic works fine if each team have the same number of people watching them. The TV viewing audience is much larger in England. I don't support any of the premiership clubs but I got sky to watch the English teams.

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Post by Suspicious lurker Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:07 pm

You see I wouldn't be so sure about that, I would fully agree that England has more subscriptions to sky sports but i if it was broken down properly I wouldn't think there is a huge gap in rugby watching figures
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Post by Feckless Rogue Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:27 pm

I've also noticed that Leinster and Munster often get the prime slot in the schedule. And are hyped quite a bit by the Sky team. I think any game involving them does actually draw a large audience in England and France. Just like any Champions League soccer game involving someone like Madrid, Milan or Barcelona would draw a big audience across Europe.

I'd say English or French teams tv viewing figures would go way up when they're facing Leinster or Munster. They're huge rugby brands now. They've been the teams to beat in the last 7 years so people want to see them. Some outside Ireland even support them. Apparently there's a group of Germans who travel around Europe supporting Leinster. Most outside Ireland want watch them because they want to see them taken down a peg. And I'd say they're rather more important to Heineken and the erc than HammerofThunor would like to think.

The sponsors and broadcasters would be dead set against losing them. They have a lot of power too. In fact they have loads of power because they provide the money to run the whole thing.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:57 pm

Its the French who are currently kicking up a stink about the HC, pointing out they get much better crowds and TV audiences ( espec in the expensive away trips) for T14 games.

Feckless I agree, the likes of Leinster are premium fixtures. they are big gamjes against big clubs that the french/english dont often get to play against. thats what the HC is about now.
The whole competition though is devalued a bit by the Rabo making many of the fixtures mundane and by a bloated tournament with a significant numbe rof no marks in. Thats just as much the mid table Jeff/T14 clubs as it is the italians and connacht etc.

Looking at the list of who wouldvve been in if theyd shifted to the system proposed by the OP ( one that has never been on the table) the clubs to come in wouldve been no hopers, and the clubs who missed out almost exclusively the same. In terms of quality and intensity and keeping the matches special trimming the HC should be the policy.

The only downside would be the minimal representation of some unions would be even more exaggerated, and it would leave the ERC needing a trim to accommodate those missing out on the HC....which means no "second tier" unions clubs getting serious european rugby.

There is a problem with the current HC set up. Its far too common for french clubs to stop taking it seriously, especially if they have an early season loss. Its not seen as the premier trophy there by the club owners or fans, thats a problem.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:03 pm

Did I get it wrong? I thought there was a proposal to have a 20 team hc with the top 6 from 3 leagues the 2 cup winners.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:06 pm

is that the new proposal? From what I understand that was still going to be based on representation from unions ( so the scotts and italians would still be guaranteed spots)

From your title I assume youre talking about ancient history, there may have been a proposal of the nature you are talking about ...Im not aware of it. I know theres been muttering about HC make up since day 1 but not sure of specifics on proposed changes.
Looking back at my post I may have miscommunicated this.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:21 pm

I thought that was the current proposal. I started this thread to explore what might have happened if they had been implemented 7 years ago.

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