20 years of Pro10/1214 Rugby

What started out as a marriage of convenience/necessity back in the 2001/2002 has just finished it's 20th season.  I'm not counting the Rainbow Cup as it may or may not happen and had a cup more than a league.. It started off with no one wanting to sponsers it and made fun of by everyone.  As I like numbers here is the breakdown of each team performance (I have included the highest ranked club in the Region for the early years but not warriors and combined Zebre and Aronini)

Celtic League
Total Games per team150
Team points(average per game)
Leinster 446 (2.97)
Munster 439 (2.93)
Ospreys 421 (2.81)
Blues 393 (2.62)
Ulster 381 (2.54)
Scarlets 373 (2.49)
Edinburgh 367 (2.45)
Glasgow 333 (2.22)
Dragons 329 (2.19)
Connacht 246 (1.64)

Pro12
Total Games per team 154
Leinster 531 (3.45)
Munster 502 (3.26)
Ulster 480 (3.12)
Ospreys 460 (2.99)
Glasgow 458 (2.97)
Scarlets 442 (2.87)
Blues 333 (2.16)
Connacht 316 (2.05)
Edinburgh 282 (1.83)
Dragons 238 (1.55)
Benetton 220 (1.43)
Zebre 127 (0.82)

Pro14
Total Games 73 (55 for SA)

Leinster 286 (3.92)
Munster 261 (3.58)
Ulster 232 (3.18)
Glasgow 225 (3.08)
Scarlets 208 (2.85)
Edinburgh 199 (2.73)
Cheetahs 141 (2.56)
Connacht 185 (2.53)
Blues 177 (2.42)
Benetton 155 (2.12)
Ospreys 155 (2.12)
Dragons 99 (1.36)
Zebre 93 (1.27)
Kings 40 (0.73)

In the early years apart from Connacht the league was much tighter between the teams. Pro12 saw a top 6 and a clear gap to a bottom 6. Where the top 6 teams fought it out for playoffs each year.
Pro14 saw Leinster have nearly the same gap between them and 3rd as the Celtic league had between them and Dragons.  Then a nice pack who all made a quarter final except the Blues and final the bottom 5 with Ospreys the surprise member of that pack.

When it started few would have thought it would outlast Super Rugby or produce so many 6 Nation winners as it has. It started low and has slowly climbed
It's not perfect but it's our league and we don't hate it much any more.
As we move into the next phase get ready for the tatical developments in the pack as the monsters are coming to town.

It shows how good ospreys were. Nothing really between themselves, Munster and Leinster when it was the celtic league and the early years of the pro12.


This season has been a bad look for the league. As a munster fan I can see how the league paints over the cracks.

Great progression by Glasgow and Connacht over the 3 stages of the league in the 20 seasons.

The figures can have a few anomalies.

The figures show the strengthening of the squads of Leinster and to a lesser extent Munster which is shown in their figures but not in the mid table teams who in times past would have got some wins v those two but now don't.

Zebre only every got one game v Kings while Dragons got 2 in the first 2 seasons.  Benetton on the other hand while the same as Ospreys played the two weakest team once per season v 4 for Benetton, both played Dragon twice there first two years.

I though Glasgow were better in the Pro12 but it was their late Pro12 performances and Pro14 I was remembering.

Also everyone of the top 6 topped the league and also won the tournament except Ulster who got to be finalist but never won, and Scarlets who never finished top of the League but did win it.

Also makes the Connacht win so out of the blue based on the top 6 for every other year except the year Connacht won and the first year when the Blues finished 6th instead of Glasgow. Every other year it was the same 6.

The SA Franchises have been withdrawn from the proposed Rainbow Cup.

The rainbow cup can F off, a stupid idea that ruined the usual end to our season and denied teams the chance of a playoff which as an Ulster fan is particularly annoying as I think......no I know we deserved a crack at it.

Anyway, thanks Statto, I mean Brendan for that, it makes for interesting reading. The tale of the league in it's many forms brings back memories, not all good but thought provoking all the same. I would add that the year Ulster topped the league but lost the playoff still counts as a league win in my tiny, desperate mind.

Pete330v2 wrote:The rainbow cup can F off, a stupid idea that ruined the usual end to our season and denied teams the chance of a playoff which as an Ulster fan is particularly annoying as I think......no I know we deserved a crack at it.

Anyway, thanks Statto, I mean Brendan for that, it makes for interesting reading. The tale of the league in it's many forms brings back memories, not all good but thought provoking all the same. I would add that the year Ulster topped the league but lost the playoff still counts as a league win in my tiny, desperate mind.

I think if Ulster get the challange cup win which they can I think Ulster do what Bristrol are doing this year and start playing better against the big teams particularly Leinster.

Good article

Did I dream it or did one year in the Celtic league very early on Connacht finished ahead of Leinster but the IRFU elected to put Leinster forward for the Heino the following year? Not talking about the year Connacht won the pro 12.

02/03 season. To be fair Leinster did pay them back by giving them two free entries later.

I know the year Dragons finished ahead of the Scarlets the Blues won the challange so Scarlets still got in.

Old Man wrote:The SA Franchises have been withdrawn from the proposed Rainbow Cup.

Is that official? Latest article I saw was from yesterday saying it was likely but I haven't seen any formal confirmation.

Does make you wonder what the Pro 14 are going to do for the rest of the season, particularly to try and make it meaningful. Don't think there will be a whole lot of enthusiasm for another internal nation round-robin (with the Scots clubbed together with the Italians), but there's no really much else that can be done.

Basically, the Rainbow Cup without the Rainbow element!

Yes it is official

Article here

Purely semantics here but that's just articles from journos - there's been no word from the Pro 14 or SARU is what I'm meaning

I’ve seen some SA journalists saying it’s not definitely off too. It is a little strange that it hasn’t been announced.

I have no appetite for three more derbies, tbh. It’s just diluting the buzz around them, when there are so many of them. I would use it as an A team style comp now, but I guess that can’t happen. But from a Dragons point of view, it would be good for some of our younger players like Reynolds, Coleman, Dan Babos and Will Reed get some/more exposure.

I have come to expect when it comes to rumours around SA rugby you should expect the worse in this current climate.

Brendan wrote:02/03 season.  To be fair Leinster did pay them back by giving them two free entries later.

I know the year Dragons finished ahead of the Scarlets the Blues won the challange so Scarlets still got in.

thanks

Collapse2005 wrote:

Brendan wrote:02/03 season.  To be fair Leinster did pay them back by giving them two free entries later.

I know the year Dragons finished ahead of the Scarlets the Blues won the challange so Scarlets still got in.

thanks

What made it a bigger joke as that Leinster still went through as Top Irish seeds for European qualification.

Closest Connacht came before the rule changed for the league was 05/06 when they finished 6pts behind Ulster. Other then that they were well off the pace.

It was a bit unfair alright though Leinster did get to the semis that year but lost really frustratingly v Perpignan in Dublin. That game still rankles. Probably the most disappointing Leinster game ever for me.

Well the dates and times for the first 3 rainbow cup rounds are now confirmed, with the official press releases still saying the following rounds are still to be confirmed.

So no cancellation yet...

3 Dragons games, all kicking off on Sundays at 1300. Minging

Listen to the Scarlets Chairman on ScrumV last week (finally got around to it)

He raised some points on money that are A misleading and B surprising

The misleading part is he compares Leinster wage spent 12m (I think) to Scarlets of 8m. He then says it's 5m for the internationals so he views the really Scarlets wage bill as 3m.  He then compares that 3m to 10m for Benetton on all wages paid at the club including backroom staff and internationals.
It's obviously misleading to say that the internationals dont play for the Region or help in any way, while comparing yourself to the two teams most affected by internationals.

He also states that the Region only pays 20% of the internationals so they pay 1m and get 4m paid by the WRU.  He says certain internationals are 10 times as cost per game to other non internationals.  This is a worry for a couple of reasons.
1. He mentions internationals are a burden (which is crazy but in his eyes they are away to much)
2. Half the Scarlets wage bill is paid by the WRU, if they lose internationals from the wage bill for every 100k saved they only have 20k to spend on a new player because that is all the Regions portion is.
3. 5m seems high for the number of internationals compared to the cost of the rest of their squad which means there are alot of low paid players who may be hard to re-sign if not supported by the WRU. If a player has a breakout year how do they increase their wages while keeping a sufficient squad.

Does anyone know how many are in the Scarlets squad v number paid for by the WRU wage agreement.

I see Dean Ryan is going to give some of our fringe players a chance. Perfect.

RDW wrote:Well the dates and times for the first 3 rainbow cup rounds are now confirmed, with the official press releases still saying the following rounds are still to be confirmed.

So no cancellation yet...

Let's hope it can happen. I think this is a glimpse of the future. Not simply a precursor to the SA Super Rugby teams playing in the Pro 16, but a larger future including the English teams as well. Would make an absolute killing financially. But it would require some real visionary thinking by a lot of people, which means it won't happen in the next few years.

Interesting how "Blues" was written but so was "Glasgow" instead of "Warriors".

That nicely proves a point.

PhilBB wrote:Interesting how "Blues" was written but so was "Glasgow" instead of "Warriors".

That nicely proves a point.

Thank you for your insightful comment.

The reason for it is how each of the teams appear when shortened.  Since regionalism the 4 Welsh teams has always been shortened to their Regional name rather then their full name.  Scottish teams on the other hand have been shortened to the city.

There was nothing contentious or abusive in my comment then, Risca. Just explaining that Cardiff City have fans in the surrounding areas. To just delete it is a bit off. Just makes people not want to bother posting/discussing.

The post had been deleted and he had another edited, as you will see above. There must’ve been some sort of delay in timings, where I deleted it but then you posted your response to one of them. The issue was with Brendan’s post and not yours. I didn’t want it shown again (via quote) and causing another load of bickering.

RiscaGame wrote:The post had been deleted and he had another edited, as you will see above. There must’ve been some sort of delay in timings, where I deleted it but then you posted your response to one of them. The issue was with Brendan’s post and not yours. I didn’t want it shown again (via quote) and causing another load of bickering.

Apologises for the posts, I will tone back the scarism when discussing such topics.

Was the Glasgow v Edinburgh in 1872 cup as opposed to Warriors v Gunners not a valid point as to why Glasgow are know as Glasgow not Warriors.

It was the small bit about alluding to the Celtic Warriors. It could possibly have been edited, but seeing as your one post seemed designed to provoke, I took the other one to be doing so too.

Brendan wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Interesting how "Blues" was written but so was "Glasgow" instead of "Warriors".

That nicely proves a point.

Thank you for your insightful comment.

The reason for it is how each of the teams appear when shortened.  Since regionalism the 4 Welsh teams has always been shortened to their Regional name rather then their full name.  Scottish teams on the other hand have been shortened to the city.

Yep, you're right.

I’ve regularly enjoyed watching our weird ever changing league over the years. Born of necessity and full of flaws it has been criticised constantly and almost never praised in the media or in comments or forums but I’ve seen great matches every year following it. It is an undeniable freak- a “domestic” league: spread across Europe, broadcast in different languages, matches at odd times, bouncing from one broadcaster to another. But it’s stayed alive, kept rugby pro alive in four countries and sometimes been brilliant!

This league is where we first saw the best players in each country hone their skills and show off their talents and got excited about them. It’s where we all remember seeing our now favourite players for the first time and sometimes thrown up some seriously competitive and exciting matches.

Years ago I went out with a French rugby player who after watching the pro 12 with me for a year declared that he preferred it to the top 14. The reason was the excitement, risks taken, all round quality of the rugby. The top 14 was really conservative and dull in comparison. I was shocked because over the years I just accepted that it was the worst league in Europe and the top 14 was the best. I absorbed this from the media and forums. I’d never watched a season of top 14 rugby and they were paying for the best players in the world. But what they got was low risk rugby. We got a league where players still take chances. So I started feeling a bit proud of the pro 12 then. I hope some of you all feel the same way.

Intotouch wrote:I’ve regularly enjoyed watching our weird ever changing league over the years.

You're lucky.