London Welsh to take on the RFU

First topic message reminder :

London Welsh to take on the might of the RFU

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18285069

Good luck to them

As someone has alredy stated and as a Welshman it upsets me, any of these rules cannot be used retrospectively, BUT, what if their true objective is for them to ask the Court to set a limit that ALL CLUBS alredy within the ringed fence League will have perhaps 2 or 3 years to comply with the said rules, which ultimately will be the only fair way, that will have the old farts in a spin.

I think some folks on here are getting sucked in by the whole london WELSH bit, when in fact its the LONDON welsh bit that annoys me. The last thing we need in the prem is another flamin' sarf east team. For the good of rugby in this country, ring fence the whole thing and let it go.....there's gonna be a big old swathe of the country unrepresented if these darn sutheners get there way!!!

ultra You are correct.

If that's the case Wayne, I'm right behind them.

If the Falcons go down and we come out on top of the playoffs, we will have no problems with the entry criteria as we have spent the shekels on the ground, the training facilities, the community programmes, the medical facilities and the other 'peripheral' items that go to make a club a Premiership side.

I agree that some of the Premiership sides can't say the same, but then, if they fall on hard times results wise then they will have a real problem getting back up, as the money is reduced just at the time they will have to increase their outgoings.


I think the authorities should release a statement giving the interested paties an idea of what their stance is in regards to the LW's appeal. Something along the lines of ........

WRU group chief executive Roger Lewis said: "We fully recognised the emotional arguments for Beddau and Bonymaen because they have achieved so much on the field of play, but the rules of governance have to be obeyed.

"Beddau and Bonymaen are important clubs with proud histories and we applaud and honour them for that. "The consequences of bending to the emotion of their arguments would not have been acceptable and, furthermore, would have damaged our image as a rugby nation."

I completely agree that another London-esque team is not helping grow Rugby across England. Having Oxford Welsh join the Reading Irish, the Wycombe Wasps, Watford Saracens, and Twicky Quins only concentrates Rugby when we need a better geographical spread.

But I also think the initiative to get the London/Oxford Welsh into the Premiership will fail since the rules were in place for a while and everyone knew what they were. The existing Premiership clubs which do not meet promotion criteria are grandfathered and, if relegated, would need to meet the requirements. Same as any other team. Not a legal eagle by any stretch, but to me it seems impossible for them to win this one.

I suppose the frustration for many of us is that so few clubs meet the promotion requirements. I wonder if anyone knows if the RFU or PRL have a development programme which can assist clubs who may be on the cusp of meeting the criteria.

Admitting my bias, I was hoping Cornwall would win the Championship, so that they might get a boost in their push for a new stadium. My only concern is whether the population is too small and/or too spread out to fill out 10,000 seats per match.

wayne wrote:As someone has alredy stated and as a Welshman it upsets me, any of these rules cannot be used retrospectively, BUT, what if their true objective is for them to ask the Court to set a limit that ALL CLUBS alredy within the ringed fence League will have perhaps 2 or 3 years to comply with the said rules, which ultimately will be the only fair way, that will have the old farts in a spin.

How could a court possibly rule on something like that?

Although the case could have that effect and actually force the downsizing of the Jeff and true ring fencing bought in. Whatever happens it will be the small clubs who suffer from most this, which is quite ironic really.

Trail Ape, I agree with you those rules CANNOT be used retrospectively by LW and yes you meet the reentry criteria, what is unfair is the clubs already in the Aviva that DO NOT meet the rules and can enforce the rules under the auspices of PRL.
PSW you do not think any Court has the power to make the PRL enforce their rules for all teams, because I do

Well, much as it pains me to say so, a very reliable source, (who's position shall remain incignito), was talking over this very subject yesterday and he believes it very likely that LondonWelsh will win their appeal.

I genuinely hope not and in fact put a whole english pound bet that the falcons would stay up but my source is rarely wrong. I'm gonna be a pound down and the north east loses even further ground rugby wise

ultra wrote:Well, much as it pains me to say so, a very reliable source, (who's position shall remain incignito), was talking over this very subject yesterday and he believes it very likely that LondonWelsh will win their appeal.

I genuinely hope not and in fact put a whole english pound bet that the falcons would stay up but my source is rarely wrong. I'm gonna be a pound down and the north east loses even further ground rugby wise

I can't, unless LW can prove without a shadow of doubt that they have met ALL the requirements laid down(Not just the ground) with a sound business plan to back it all up( investors etc.) they won't win.

Maybe they should have thought of getting all this sorted when they were aware of finishing in the top four was a possibility not when they get to the final, then making as much noise as they can about how it's all unfair.

Maybe they should go the route of the others by slowly building up the correct infrastructure, not chasing the money.

Ar this point in time, doesn't it seem like a fool's errand to push for promotion? With little time available to sign new players before next season, their chances of staying up for more than one season seems very low.

What's gained from playing in the Premiership for only one season then tumbling back down? The crash could be worse than the benefit of that one season. In a way, could set them back years.

doctor_grey wrote:Ar this point in time, doesn't it seem like a fool's errand to push for promotion? With little time available to sign new players before next season, their chances of staying up for more than one season seems very low.

What's gained from playing in the Premiership for only one season then tumbling back down? The crash could be worse than the benefit of that one season. In a way, could set them back years.

Parachute payments Doc? Or less cynically, principles?

Port,
I am not sure any of this is about principles. The £££ perhaps, but not principles. I never thought of the parachute payments as the ultimate aim previously, and that would absolutely be cynical (off-the-charts cynical). But I wouldn't dismiss it either.

Did you ever see the play or movie "The Producers"? If not, it is very funny and I recommend it. It is about a producer who figures out how to make more money from a play which fails than one which succeeds.

doctor_grey wrote:Port,
I am not sure any of this is about principles. The £££ perhaps, but not principles. I never thought of the parachute payments as the ultimate aim previously, and that would absolutely be cynical (off-the-charts cynical). But I wouldn't dismiss it either.

Did you ever see the play or movie "The Producers"? If not, it is very funny and I recommend it. It is about a producer who figures out how to make more money from a play which fails than one which succeeds.

Springtime for Hitler doc?

That's it, mate.
I hope your suggestion is wrong, but, as I said, can't dismiss it either.

When Rotherham didn't go up they were given the money earmarked for Leeds

It's all a little more underhand than I would've ever assumed in my days just running into folks with the ball under my arm.

All you learned fellas on here.....what do you see as the best outcome for rugby? Another southern team with a bit of cash but not enough to compete and more than likey down again next season...or the soon to be re-invented falcons with richards at the reign, attracting new blood to an area saturated by kiss-ball?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I agree Portnoy - The Primacy of Tenancy issue doesn't seem that big a deal - especially as other clubs already in the AV manage to deal with not having Primacy.

But that's what annoys me as this is the problem they've stated was why they refused LW.

If they'd been clear and stated other reasons then it would have been fine. As people say LW don't seem to have gone down the Exeter/Pirates route of building slowly and ensuring they could stay in the AV.

But at the same time, we don't know LW's business plan and maybe they could go straight up and stay up - in Oxfords ground.

Th reason they dont have much of a plan in place is because they never expected to get promoted this season . They only finsihed 4th in the league, better than expected ta the start of the season, and cobbled together this plan in a rush when they realised they was a slim chance they may win the thing ...which only happened because the Pirates pulled off a freak win against Bristol.

Their plan was flawed and failed the independent audit.

Now they are appealing that but havent been clear on what grounds. Theres been a lot of noise about the unfairness of the rules, but I havent seen anything specific that says they have anything they can appeal those rules on to get them retrospectively changed. All in all its very short on specifics but high on rhetoric and threats of legal action.

The RFU/PRL have long established rules that have been debated for some time. LW could have had there audit done earlier, but chose not to get a plan together.

Theres only one party who seems to be winging it in all this. The criteria may be flawed but they are pretty clear and theres a transparent process for them to be measured. Theres only one party to blame for the failure to meet them.

As for not stating the other reasons its the media that havent reported them (although Im sure I read something about distabnce between the grounds somewere may be wrong though), LW will have been informed of those reasons. Its certainly not a state secret anyway.

Richard Cockerill has now come out on record supporting London Welsh.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/t-destroy-premier-dreams-says-Leicester-Tigers/story-16282811-detail/story.html

Surely it would be better for Welsh to win the Champ again next season and really build up a bit of strength in the squad on the way, as well as get a long term plan together; then to just come up now and get wupped?

yappysnap wrote:Surely it would be better for Welsh to win the Champ again next season and really build up a bit of strength in the squad on the way, as well as get a long term plan together; then to just come up now and get wupped?

True, yappy, but don't forget that's what was said about Exe

Very true, but somehow I just don't think Welsh would manage the same feats as Exeter.

yappysnap wrote:Very true, but somehow I just don't think Welsh would manage the same feats as Exeter.

Agreed, they'd need the stars aligned for a miracle, but it's not impossible, just highly unlikely imo

Exeter have already bagsied all of the miracles I think. And sacrificied to all the gods. There's nothing left for Welsh

And didn't Ex plan for a few years before coming up, while LW seem to be making it up as they go along.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Surely it would be better for Welsh to win the Champ again next season and really build up a bit of strength in the squad on the way, as well as get a long term plan together; then to just come up now and get wupped?

True, yappy, but don't forget that's what was said about Exe

As! Wait there. Is it true that Exeter got RFU funding along the way in their charge to the Jeff - and if so, what?

Portnoy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Surely it would be better for Welsh to win the Champ again next season and really build up a bit of strength in the squad on the way, as well as get a long term plan together; then to just come up now and get wupped?

True, yappy, but don't forget that's what was said about Exe

As! Wait there. Is it true that Exeter got RFU funding along the way in their charge to the Jeff - and if so, what?

Sorry, Portnoy, busy day today. Do you mean funding over and above that which was given to other championship clubs? No, that is not true

Cheers Chief.

HammerofThunor wrote:

munkian wrote:It's completely hypocritical of the RFU to claim the Rabbo teams have it easy because theirs no relegation then all but ring fence their own league

If course the RFU haven't claimed this. The PRL have. Also the premeirship isn't ring-fenced, teams just need to have a decent infrastructure as well as buying in decent players.

Why do they need decent players?

They obviously have good enough players or they wouldn't have won the Championship. Nothing wrong with the Alakazzam stadium it's nice.

The issue is not that some AP sides are doing some things which promoted clubs are not allowed to do. As I understand it LW are not contesting that (as noted elsewhere, it is not unusual for rules not to apply in retrospect), despite various public statements about AP sides already sharing with football clubs.

The issue is whether LW comply with the rules. Given this, I expect them to lose their appeal, at whatever level they take it to.

If they were contesting the fairness of the rules per se and they won then Bristol may wish to consider a counter appeal appeal on the basis that they finished top of the league and, even though the rules were clear that this is not sufficient, that those rules which stopped them being promoted were clearly unfair.