Scotland - the brave.

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 1:42 pm

The significance of this win by scotland should not be under estimated.

In the last decade at home South Africa has not lost a match to a home nation in 13 matches.

In the last decade at home Australia has only lost to one home nation and that was england before today's match, the last of the four wins in the decade by England was in June of 2010 out of a total of 19 matches.

In the last decade New Zealand has only lost one match to a home nation and that was England on 14 June 2003 out of 14 matches.

That gives a record of 5 wins in 46 away matches.

England 4 wins out of 14
Scotland 1 win out of 8
Ireland 0 wins out of 13
Wales 0 wins out of 11

Now Scotland may have been the perennial underdog in the six nations for some time, but the one reality that cannot be taken away from them is heir ability to up their intensity when playing their three traditional southern Hemisphere foes. To add to this record they have beaten South africa twice at home in the last decade and also managed another win over Australia in the last decade.

Yes, Ireland and England has been more successful against these three SH teams, but the fact is you can never write off the scottish.

Now we could say conditions weren't perfect for the Australian backline to attack at pace, and handling was atrocious from both team making many mistakes. We could also say that it wasn't the best planning by the ARU (which I most certainly agree with), but the win is in the record books.

For all the flack that Scottish fans have endured about their lack of this and lack of that during the world cup and the six nations, I just want to say, well done, great result, and you should be proud of your team.

by aucklandlaurie Tue 05 Jun 2012, 1:47 pm

Why should they forget about the gap? Scotland's increasing it every game. from 1 point then tonight three points. its all improvement.

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 1:49 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Why should they forget about the gap? Scotland's increasing it every game. from 1 point then tonight three points. its all improvement.

Scotland - the brave. Smiley-laughing021

by Shifty Tue 05 Jun 2012, 1:58 pm

Don't get too carried away by the win, lets look at this with a bit of honesty and realism.

Firstly, Scotland accepted an invitation to play a full international against Australia. They took the best team they could out there and played the game. they played very much a A Australia team. Truth be told Scotland went away from home and beat the team that was put in front of them, that's all you can really ask any team to do.

Digby Ioane could be considered a first choice, Berrick Barnes could be considered a first choice though I think he's normally inside center not fly half, Will Genia is first choice scrum half.
In the pack James Slipper could be considered first choice at loose head, while Nathan Sharp is someone they use regularly pre-world cup, and Scott Higginbotham is often in the side. The final player David Pocock has no peers in his position at flanker.

The brutal truth is out of all the players in that Australian side, if Australia picked all their best players then Genia, Pocock and Ioane would be in the side. Higginbotham, James Slipper and Berrick Barnes might be in the team, while the others would be lucky to be in the squad.

Scotland should take the win and be grateful they have it, but truth be told Australia have used a reserve / experimental side and all it has proven is what we already knew when Samoa won in Australia 32-23 just before the World Cup. Australia do not have much strength in depth!

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 2:01 pm

Yep, in 100 years from now, the record book will show.

Scotland 9 - Australia 6.

No footnote, explanation or justification.

by 123456789 Tue 05 Jun 2012, 2:06 pm

Whilst everyone knows that it wasn't the strongest team the achievement was still large- they were on a 7 match losing streak, away from home and in terrible conditions - running rugby was impossible and by extension a big score from either side. A win in the southern hemisphere against one of the big three is something that few have achieved recently and should be built upon looking towards next year's six nations. Remember Scotland were missing Hamilton, Brown, Denton, Jones, Evans (as well as Visser) and a few others who wouldn't normally make the starting line up but are squad member nevertheless.

by Ospreydragon Tue 05 Jun 2012, 2:54 pm

"Remember Scotland were missing Hamilton, Brown, Denton, Jones, Evans (as well as Visser)" - 123456789, how can Scotland be missing Visser when he doesn't qualify for Scotland on residency grounds until 12 June?

by Imperialbigdave Tue 05 Jun 2012, 2:58 pm

What I quite like about todays result is the fact that we put out a team designed for free flowing running rugby, but they managed to cope in an arm wrestle. That should encourage the management to stop being so bloomin conservative and realise that we have players who can play heads up rugby and still cope with attritional games rather than selecting limited boshers all the time just because theyve got a bit of muscle.

by **rodders** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:03 pm

Don't agree with that Alyn. Australia put their 22 out and Scotland put out theirs and Scotland won. Full stop. Thats it, no if or buts, a win is a win is a win.

It was a full international so that was not Australias A team and it is unfair and disrespectful on Scotland to call them so.

It was a fantastic win for Scotland and shouldn't be devalued or belittled in any way guinness

.

by bsando Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:05 pm

AlynDavies wrote:Don't get too carried away by the win, lets look at this with a bit of honesty and realism.

Firstly, Scotland accepted an invitation to play a full international against Australia. They took the best team they could out there and played the game. they played very much a A Australia team. Truth be told Scotland went away from home and beat the team that was put in front of them, that's all you can really ask any team to do.

Digby Ioane could be considered a first choice, Berrick Barnes could be considered a first choice though I think he's normally inside center not fly half, Will Genia is first choice scrum half.
In the pack James Slipper could be considered first choice at loose head, while Nathan Sharp is someone they use regularly pre-world cup, and Scott Higginbotham is often in the side. The final player David Pocock has no peers in his position at flanker.

The brutal truth is out of all the players in that Australian side, if Australia picked all their best players then Genia, Pocock and Ioane would be in the side. Higginbotham, James Slipper and Berrick Barnes might be in the team, while the others would be lucky to be in the squad.

Scotland should take the win and be grateful they have it, but truth be told Australia have used a reserve / experimental side and all it has proven is what we already knew when Samoa won in Australia 32-23 just before the World Cup. Australia do not have much strength in depth!

Mate, I am just really happy we beat Australia in their own backyard! I grew up in Aus and my family are all Scottish and I am just so happy I got to watch Scotland create a little bit of history once again. I was at the match we beat Australia at Murrayfield and now 2.5 years later I watched them beat Australia again, in appalling conditions. Its a great day to be Scottish!

by emack2 Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:09 pm

For the record Scotland have the least resources of ANY Home nation,and have actually beaten the Boks 4 times which is pretty good.In The RWC they were arguably the best side in there group every where but on the scoreboard.
Scotland can compete with anyone BUT unless the learn to score try`s they won`t progress.A Couple of years ago they played England in indifferent weather and scared the pants off them.Running at them and scoring tries only the loss of a key back denied them victory match drawn.In the wet Scotland are formidable,YES both sides were understrength.THAT shows the folly of the timing of these matches squeezed in the middle of a long Tournament.
Well done Laddies my ancestors would be proud of ye I bear a Scottish name,and relatives lived and played in Dunedin and Inver cargill sadly now dead.

by Cowshot Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:13 pm

Congrats Scotland on a great win. Beating Aus in their own back yard isn't ever easy and you should consider team headbutts as a possible response to the Haka.

I think we're going to have to start calling any game played in a washing machine a Scottish home game. Whistle

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:15 pm

We're talking last decade alan, not last century.

by anotherworldofpain Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:22 pm

bsando wrote:
AlynDavies wrote:Don't get too carried away by the win, lets look at this with a bit of honesty and realism.

Firstly, Scotland accepted an invitation to play a full international against Australia. They took the best team they could out there and played the game. they played very much a A Australia team. Truth be told Scotland went away from home and beat the team that was put in front of them, that's all you can really ask any team to do.

Digby Ioane could be considered a first choice, Berrick Barnes could be considered a first choice though I think he's normally inside center not fly half, Will Genia is first choice scrum half.
In the pack James Slipper could be considered first choice at loose head, while Nathan Sharp is someone they use regularly pre-world cup, and Scott Higginbotham is often in the side. The final player David Pocock has no peers in his position at flanker.

The brutal truth is out of all the players in that Australian side, if Australia picked all their best players then Genia, Pocock and Ioane would be in the side. Higginbotham, James Slipper and Berrick Barnes might be in the team, while the others would be lucky to be in the squad.

Scotland should take the win and be grateful they have it, but truth be told Australia have used a reserve / experimental side and all it has proven is what we already knew when Samoa won in Australia 32-23 just before the World Cup. Australia do not have much strength in depth!

Mate, I am just really happy we beat Australia in their own backyard! I grew up in Aus and my family are all Scottish and I am just so happy I got to watch Scotland create a little bit of history once again. I was at the match we beat Australia at Murrayfield and now 2.5 years later I watched them beat Australia again, in appalling conditions. Its a great day to be Scottish!

Very unkind word for Alyn there (bit of jealous?) a lot of noise made by Australian about "avoid the ambush" and so many players back up Super rugby, Wales series and also this Scotland game. Not sure about "very much Australia A" then. Australia want very much to avoid "embarrassment" in lose this one. And well, despise all that planning they still lose against a very good Scotland who defend every inch and then clinical execution into the wind of pragmatism rugby to make a heroic win when they could so easy have end the game and happy about the draw!

by mckay1402 Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:24 pm

AlynDavies wrote:Don't get too carried away by the win, lets look at this with a bit of honesty and realism.

Firstly, Scotland accepted an invitation to play a full international against Australia. They took the best team they could out there and played the game. they played very much a A Australia team. Truth be told Scotland went away from home and beat the team that was put in front of them, that's all you can really ask any team to do.

Digby Ioane could be considered a first choice, Berrick Barnes could be considered a first choice though I think he's normally inside center not fly half, Will Genia is first choice scrum half.
In the pack James Slipper could be considered first choice at loose head, while Nathan Sharp is someone they use regularly pre-world cup, and Scott Higginbotham is often in the side. The final player David Pocock has no peers in his position at flanker.

The brutal truth is out of all the players in that Australian side, if Australia picked all their best players then Genia, Pocock and Ioane would be in the side. Higginbotham, James Slipper and Berrick Barnes might be in the team, while the others would be lucky to be in the squad.

Scotland should take the win and be grateful they have it, but truth be told Australia have used a reserve / experimental side and all it has proven is what we already knew when Samoa won in Australia 32-23 just before the World Cup. Australia do not have much strength in depth!

yeah got to disagree with this. Australia put out a strong pack and some were expecting them to be stronger than scotland in that area. moore, slipper, Higginbotham, Pocock, Sharpe and Slipper are all experienced internationals. Scotland took them on in their own backyard and did a job on them. Let's not forget that only a couple of months ago Scotland picked up a well deserved wooden spoon so this is considerable improvement

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:29 pm

firstly it is rare for any team to play their top players in every match these days due to injury etc.

I did an analysis of South africa's top players in the 4 years PDV coached and only on 24 occassions prior to the RWC did their best combinations play, of which they won 80+ of those tests, but the reality is doesn't happen that often for any team anymore.

Looking at the conditions, australia didn't have Beale, 'Connor and Cooper which in my view are their definite first choice players who didn't play.

The conditions didn't allow for spectacular back play and the question is how much difference would it have made, then on the pher hand scotland didn't have Denton who is their first choice player.

So a little bit of this and a little bit of that, still doesn't make the win disappear.

Now if Bruce Lawrence were officiating, well then they may have had a case. Whistle

by anotherworldofpain Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:34 pm

We all know you south africans are not one to hold a grudge Mr Biltonbek. I thought for you a grudge is just somewhere to park your car?

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:36 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote: We all know you south africans are not one to hold a grudge Mr Biltonbek. I thought for you a grudge is just somewhere to park your car?

Excellent humour there AWOP.

no mate it is a Garage.

Grudge is something you allow to simmer for 4 years and then take it out on your opponents at the next world cup.

Ask the Kiwi's they know how it works. Whistle

by anotherworldofpain Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:39 pm

I hear this joke but can't make the accent in writing so sorry about it!

I think normal is simmer for 24 years and then become frightened about the shaddow when knock out coming and eventually make the threat to leave the competitior and then all make groin injury and escape a bit lucky with the win?

by Morgannwg Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:41 pm

biltongbek wrote:

Yes, Ireland and England has been more successful against these three SH teams, but the fact is you can never write off the scottish.

Well to be fair we hear the same thing every year, along with the 'Scotland are dark horses...' cliche; then they end up finishing fifth or sixth in the 6 Nations. I'll reserve judgement of the team until their tour is over.

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:42 pm

Morgan, be fair mate, nobody expected them to win today.

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:43 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:I hear this joke but can't make the accent in writing so sorry about it!

I think normal is simmer for 24 years and then become frightened about the shaddow when knock out coming and eventually make the threat to leave the competitior and then all make groin injury and escape a bit lucky with the win?

AWOP, sorry to correct you mate.

24 years is cryogenic freezing.
4 years is simmer.

by Morgannwg Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:44 pm

biltongbek, a few people expected them to win. A few didn't.

by thomh Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:48 pm

emack2 wrote:.In The RWC they were arguably the best side in there group every where but on the scoreboard.

Scotland were awful at the world cup. Nearly shocked by Romania and failed to score a try against any of Argentina, England and even Georgia. Today was a huge step forward for them, and with mobile forwards like Gray and Rennie they could be on the way to having a very strong side.

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 3:48 pm

Nope.

Mathematical equation.

Few + Few = small number of rugby viewing population.

Few + Many = total rugby population

On sportsguru out of 2411 guru's that predicted the outcome, the percentage of punters that predicted a scottish win were so few it still registered 0%

So if 1% of 2411 is 24, it had to be less than 12, to round off to zero.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:11 pm

Ahh that ole chestnut of it being Australia A. I'm not sure why a Welshman has to come on and be so downbeat on a team who have had their problems and have just rolled the world number 2s in their back yard?

Scotland could only play and beat the team in front of them and they did just that. I hope wales can do the sam. If tthey do I'll be giving out the congratulations instead of trying to diminish the importance of such a well won and well defended game.

by wrfc1980 Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:15 pm

Does anyone know how this effects the rankings? hat Scottish win will have led t the Aussies loosing a load of ranking points. I presume that this means if Wales beat them on saturday Wales will gain less ranking points than they would have if Scotland didn't win today?
As a England fan I have jalf an eye on the rankings as there's going to be one hell of a fight for that all important world ranking of 4th or above ready for the draw in November. I had heard that if Wales matched Englands results during these summer tests they would jump ahead of England into 4th. Is this still the case with the Ausies likely to have lost a shed load of points against the Scot?

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:19 pm

wrfc, scotland climbed from 12 to 9.

by anotherworldofpain Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:20 pm

wrfc1980 wrote:Does anyone know how this effects the rankings? hat Scottish win will have led t the Aussies loosing a load of ranking points. I presume that this means if Wales beat them on saturday Wales will gain less ranking points than they would have if Scotland didn't win today?
As a England fan I have jalf an eye on the rankings as there's going to be one hell of a fight for that all important world ranking of 4th or above ready for the draw in November. I had heard that if Wales matched Englands results during these summer tests they would jump ahead of England into 4th. Is this still the case with the Ausies likely to have lost a shed load of points against the Scot?

Yes, welcome to the brain Wink

I make this thread to say this four hour ago! But I think was ignored becaue of excitment.

by TycroesOsprey Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:21 pm

Im a bit unsure why there is some sniping about the scotland win.

Firstly the scots hardly had a first choice side out espescially in the pack and they chose two opensides to attack pocock at the breakdown. The Ozzies had maybe one or two more first team players out but the sides were easily comparable.

Secondly for those claiming the Ozzie scrum has improved, today we saw an underpowered scottish scrum take 4 penalties at scrum time. Had the ozzies scrummaged srtaight instead of twisting or going down as soon as the pressure came on then I think we would have seen an even bigger dismantling of the Ozzies.

In the backs despite less possession, the Scots made more linebreaks and beat more defenders and their linespeed in defence was considerably better than the ozzies. whose defensive patterns looked slow.

All in all a great win for the scots and much deserved but some of us saw it coming Dingo and the ARU didnt and got spanked. The pressure now will be heaped on Deans to deliver against the welsh. However I think he is in a nightmare position. He only has a few other players who he can bring in, Barnes will still be at ten and the welsh pack is at full strength as opposed to the decimated scottish pack we saw today.

New ozzie coach by the end of the quad nations, Any Takers?

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:23 pm

I know PDV is looking. Whistle

by TycroesOsprey Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:26 pm

biltongbek wrote:I know PDV is looking.

I donink the ozzies have the same political requirements in their coaches though censored

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:29 pm

TycroesOsprey wrote:
biltongbek wrote:I know PDV is looking.

I donink the ozzies have the same political requirements in their coaches though

But he is good tycroes, real, real good.

by TycroesOsprey Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:37 pm

biltongbek wrote:
TycroesOsprey wrote:
biltongbek wrote:I know PDV is looking.

I donink the ozzies have the same political requirements in their coaches though

But he is good tycroes, real, real good.

by Morgannwg Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:48 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Ahh that ole chestnut of it being Australia A. I'm not sure why a Welshman has to come on and be so downbeat on a team who have had their problems and have just rolled the world number 2s in their back yard?

Scotland could only play and beat the team in front of them and they did just that. I hope wales can do the sam. If tthey do I'll be giving out the congratulations instead of trying to diminish the importance of such a well won and well defended game.

Hang on, who said any of this? I've congratulated Scotland a few times today.

by thomh Tue 05 Jun 2012, 4:56 pm

Morgannwg

Read the AlynDavies post further up this thread. Radge didn't say the post was aimed at you.

by Morgannwg Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:09 pm

emack2 wrote:For the record Scotland have the least resources of ANY Home nation,and have actually beaten the Boks 4 times which is pretty good.In The RWC they were arguably the best side in there group every where but on the scoreboard.

That's a new one to me emack.

Erm

by Morgannwg Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:10 pm

thomh wrote:Morgannwg

Read the AlynDavies post further up this thread. Radge didn't say the post was aimed at you.

I can see that now. Sorry Radge. I think I may have got you confused with another scottish poster aswell, the one everyone shouts at but I forgets his name! I don't agree with Alyn's comment. I hear the same thing from the English/Irish every time Wales beat someone. It's just bitterness.

by 123456789 Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:11 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
emack2 wrote:For the record Scotland have the least resources of ANY Home nation,and have actually beaten the Boks 4 times which is pretty good.In The RWC they were arguably the best side in there group every where but on the scoreboard.

That's a new one to me emack.

I think what he's trying to say is that Scotland were the better team against both Argentina and England although we were pretty Poopie against the other two!

by Morgannwg Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:16 pm

How can you be good against two teams, bad against two teams, not progress from the group and be the best team in that group? Not a dig at Scotland but just general confusion caused by emack. I think England/Arg were the best of the group; with the edge going to England for being undefeated and racking up the most points.

by TycroesOsprey Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:17 pm

So what makes this even more amusing if your not an Ozzie fan is the fact that Australia won the toss and chose to play against the wind in the first half?

Im sure when I was a little schoolboy playing on a sloping pitch we were told to play with the wind in the first half and score as much as you can?

by anotherworldofpain Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:24 pm

Morgannwg wrote:How can you be good against two teams, bad against two teams, not progress from the group and be the best team in that group? Not a dig at Scotland but just general confusion caused by emack. I think England/Arg were the best of the group; with the edge going to England for being undefeated and racking up the most points.

New zealand have more a connection in spirit with Scotland than they with England and Argentina and I think some small prejudice come out there because Scotland was close to make embarrass for England. NZ supporter see England and Argentina as "boring" and annoy when they winning. So Scotland can look like best chance to knock out them and cause a bit mental confusion is my mind about who "deserve" to win and who was best.

by TJ1 Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:25 pm

Morgannwg wrote:How can you be good against two teams, bad against two teams, not progress from the group and be the best team in that group? Not a dig at Scotland but just general confusion caused by emack. I think England/Arg were the best of the group; with the edge going to England for being undefeated and racking up the most points.

terh point is that Scotland ran more yards, had more territory, won on all the stats bar points on the board.

However IMO only points on the board actually count. Gallant / unlucky loosers my arse

by thomh Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:46 pm

Morgannwg wrote:I hear the same thing from the English/Irish every time Wales beat someone. It's just bitterness.

And when England beat Wales in the world cup warm up at Twickenham we heard the same about that Welsh side, even though the sides that day were roughly equal in terms of number of first teamers (and in hindsight that was almost an entire first choice Welsh team). I don't think it's helpful to characterise it as a trait of one team's fans over another. We all do it.

by **Biltong** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:47 pm

Ok, so we have established the fact that the home nations don't like to be one upped by another. Shocked

by Morgannwg Tue 05 Jun 2012, 5:53 pm

thomh wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:I hear the same thing from the English/Irish every time Wales beat someone. It's just bitterness.

And when England beat Wales in the world cup warm up at Twickenham we heard the same about that Welsh side, even though the sides that day were roughly equal in terms of number of first teamers (and in hindsight that was almost an entire first choice Welsh team). I don't think it's helpful to characterise it as a trait of one team's fans over another. We all do it.

Well it is an actual fact that we were trying out a lot of different combo's that day and those players you speak of only made it into the first XV just before the world cup by playing well in that series.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/aug/07/england-wales-world-cup-warm-up

by thomh Tue 05 Jun 2012, 6:01 pm

Hence why I said 'in hindsight'. The guys in that team who weren't first choice then very quickly became it (which was the same for Tuilagi on our side of the equation).

by anotherworldofpain Tue 05 Jun 2012, 6:03 pm

biltongbek wrote:Ok, so we have established the fact that the home nations don't like to be one upped by another.

Could be save Wallabies in Lions tour!

by HERSH Tue 05 Jun 2012, 6:06 pm

Well played Scotland, of course this now means that Wales will be in for a tough time, I predict a 3-0 series win for Aus. thumbsup

by **George Carlin** Tue 05 Jun 2012, 6:08 pm

Oh dear, there's the distinct whiff of excrement eminating from some of the posts here. Couple of things:

1. Out of the Wallabies starting line up, Digby Ioane; Will Genia; Scott Higginbotham, David Pocock, Nathan Sharpe, Sitaleki Timani and Stephen Moore could easily be in the Test XV for Wales. This is not an 'A' team, it is the best that they have in each position.

2. Of the remainder, Mike Harris is one of the most accurate kickers in all of Super 15 - he's currently on something like 14 successful goals in succession and Dave Dennis is currently the form blindside in Australia in the estimation of anyone who has watched the Tahs this season. These players (and others I have not mentioned) were there on form and merit.

3. Scotland were missing three crucial components in the scrum - Hamilton, Brown and Denton whose inclusion would have added 35lbs of solid muscle in the tight from the outset. This was not the pack that we would choose to put out for a brawl in the wet.

4. I can honestly say that if any other home nation had beaten a SH giant under any circumstances (particuarly those like today where Scotland had to play both the conditions and a referee who let the Wallabies seal off the ball all day without penalty), then they would get nothing other than my unreserved praise. I think that some of the people on these boards should pause to take a quick look at themselves and ask why they can't seem to do the same.

by Sponsored content