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England Player Ratings v SA

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 10 Jun 2012, 9:08 am

These are not my ratings, rather an average of those awarded by journos.

As I find more i will amend this post.

Current contributors: Planet Rugby, Telegraph, Sunday Times, The Rugby Paper, The Times


Mike Brown 6.6
Chris Ashton 5.8
Manu Tuilagi 6.8
Brad Barritt 5.2
Ben Foden 6.6
Owen Farrell 5.0
Ben Youngs 5.6
Ben Morgan 5.2
Chris Robshaw 7.0
Tom Johnson 6.4
Geoff Parling 6.2
Mouritz Botha 6.8
Dan Cole 6.0
Dylan Hartley 5.0
Joe Marler 5.4


Last edited by LondonTiger on Mon 11 Jun 2012, 11:18 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Added another source)

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Post by yappysnap Sun 10 Jun 2012, 9:12 am

Tuilagi got a 7?! I literally do not think he passed the ball once in the entire game, which as a 13 who's role is to bosh over players and then offload is a pretty big failing!

Other then that i'd probably agree with the rest of the scores except lowering Parlings and rasing the front rows a little.

And Farrell gets about a 3

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 10 Jun 2012, 9:16 am

yappysnap wrote:Tuilagi got a 7?! I literally do not think he passed the ball once in the entire game, which as a 13 who's role is to bosh over players and then offload is a pretty big failing!

He got an 8 from Paul Ackford in the torygraph!

He passed his fist ball to the winger, after that I agree that (similar to normal offloaders like Marler) there was little release of the ball. While he may have been looking for contact - to be fair our support running was dire. I wonder whether Marler had nightmares last night of running into a line of Alberts with no support in white.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 10 Jun 2012, 9:16 am

Just looking at planet rugby and i'd probably take a point off nearly all of their scorse.


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Post by yappysnap Sun 10 Jun 2012, 9:19 am

LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Tuilagi got a 7?! I literally do not think he passed the ball once in the entire game, which as a 13 who's role is to bosh over players and then offload is a pretty big failing!

He got an 8 from Paul Ackford in the torygraph!

He passed his fist ball to the winger, after that I agree that (similar to normal offloaders like Marler) there was little release of the ball. While he may have been looking for contact - to be fair our support running was dire. I wonder whether Marler had nightmares last night of running into a line of Alberts with no support in white.

It did seem like a lit of the players had never played an offloading/support game before. Odd when a lot come from Tigers and Quins. We need an impressive attacking game next week as the cracks are already showing in SL's coaching.

Ackford is a buffoon!

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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 9:31 am

I personally would give Brown more, he wasn't half bad.
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Post by maestegmafia Sun 10 Jun 2012, 9:53 am

Brown was good. For his first big match he was very good, less nerves than most the team.

I agree with Yappysnap though that I would take at least a point off all else and maybe two or three off some of the go to players that failed.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun 10 Jun 2012, 10:13 am

Im surprised Johnosn scored so well. He was porous in defence and no replacement for Croft as a lineout receiver and winger.

England backrow in general was a big problem (Robshaw aside whos tackling is getting Worsely like).

Scores seem a bit harsh on Hartley, at least he managed to throw the ball to england players which is a big improvement. But Hooker is a worry, bringing Mears is as ridiculous as Chuter being in the squad a year ago.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 10 Jun 2012, 1:38 pm

Just added the marks from The Rugby Paper where the England team got 88/150.

As a point of reference Wales got 91 and Ireland 95 - so Ireland were the best performers of the three teams!!

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Post by thomh Sun 10 Jun 2012, 1:43 pm

Ackford giving Marler a 4 is just ridiculous. His comments looked like he had written them before the game.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 10 Jun 2012, 1:47 pm

Do Ackford's ratings/views/articles count?
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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 1:50 pm

Ackford would think so, yes. Whistle
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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 10 Jun 2012, 1:55 pm

Biltong, who in your opinion is SA and England's best ex-professional player rugby writers and pundits and their worst respectively.

Actually, scratch that, this could make a topic
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Post by fa0019 Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:00 pm

Johnson carried the ball for 2 metres... in 5 carries and missed 23% of his tackles (3 in 13) from ESPN. In test rugby thats just not good enough.

You won't see gaps for him to run into like the baa baa's match. Test blindsides need to be a viable lineout option, a good ball carrier and tough in defence... does Johnson qualify for even 1 out of those 3??? I doubt it.

As much as he winds people up I think Naas is very tactically astute. He has little alliance with any players, even his old bulls side. He tells it how it is.

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Post by Bullsbok Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:03 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfQxTr1yeTM&feature=g-u-u -- the destructive force that is Tuilagi ..the last one is my favourite , he puts JDV on his ass then gets swung about like a doll by Frans Steyn. Tuilagi is a beast though , im sure JDV will be in the ice bath today after the hammering he got
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Post by gowales Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:03 pm

yappysnap wrote:Tuilagi got a 7?! I literally do not think he passed the ball once in the entire game, which as a 13 who's role is to bosh over players and then offload is a pretty big failing!

Other then that i'd probably agree with the rest of the scores except lowering Parlings and rasing the front rows a little.

And Farrell gets about a 3

To be fair Tuilagi's job isn't to pass. Barrit should be doing some more of that since he can't crash the ball up for toffy. Tuilagi and Joseph would be a much more effective combination, although both players tend to have defensive lapses

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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:10 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Biltong, who in your opinion is SA and England's best ex-professional player rugby writers and pundits and their worst respectively.

Actually, scratch that, this could make a topic
Well from my perspective I think our guys are quite fair on the opposition, they may be a little based at times, but not that often.

I like bobby Skinstad, he has a youthfulness with which he commentates.
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Post by Geordie Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:20 pm

In that second clip...what is the free kick for?

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Post by gowales Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:21 pm

biltongbek wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Biltong, who in your opinion is SA and England's best ex-professional player rugby writers and pundits and their worst respectively.

Actually, scratch that, this could make a topic
Well from my perspective I think our guys are quite fair on the opposition, they may be a little based at times, but not that often.

I like bobby Skinstad, he has a youthfulness with which he commentates.

I quite like the old guy with the deep voice

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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:22 pm

Yeah, chick Henderson, he has been around for ages.
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Post by gowales Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:24 pm

biltongbek wrote:Yeah, chick Henderson, he has been around for ages.

Not him, the other guy who wears glasses and has a big(ish) nose

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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:26 pm

i think his name is Matthew Pierce.
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Post by gowales Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:27 pm

Ah i've got his name now Hugh Bladen. Absolute legend

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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 2:29 pm

Oh yes, but he didn't commentate yesterday.
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Post by B91212 Sun 10 Jun 2012, 3:45 pm

I can't help but feel the ratings for Hartley are based more on people's dislike of him than on actual performance. Other than a stupid swinging arm tackle he hit his jumpers in the line out, got through a decent amount of work in defense without giving away penalties and showed up in the loose. You can't even blame him for when Johnson pushed the ball back with his hand in the scrum because the ball was fed straight into the second row. Even when he did the grubber kick the attack had been messed up by a poor pass (I think it was Farrell but not 100%).

He also looked like he was lost some weight which is a good thing as I thought he looked too chunky before his ban.

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Post by flankertye Sun 10 Jun 2012, 4:51 pm

I'd go

Marler - 6
hartley - 6
cole - 7
botha - 6
Parling - 7
Johnson - 7
robshaw - 7
Morgan - 6
Youngs - 5
farrell - 5
ashton - 7
baritt - 7
tuilagi -8
foden - 7
Brown - 8.5

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Post by Geordie Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:04 pm

flankertye wrote:I'd go

Marler - 6
hartley - 6
cole - 7
botha - 6
Parling - 7 (6)
Johnson - 7 (6)
robshaw - 7
Morgan - 6 (5.5)
Youngs - 5
farrell - 5 (4)
ashton - 7 (6)
baritt - 7 (6)
tuilagi -8
foden - 7
Brown - 8.5

Changed a couple of yours mate to show my thoughts....

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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:05 pm

you're being harsh on Morgan and farrel mate.
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Post by thomh Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:07 pm

flankertye wrote:I'd go

Marler - 6 (7)
hartley - 6
cole - 7 (6.5)
botha - 6
Parling - 7
Johnson - 7 (6.5)
robshaw - 7 (7.5)
Morgan - 6
Youngs - 5
farrell - 5
ashton - 7
baritt - 7
tuilagi -8 (7.5)
foden - 7
Brown - 8.5 (7.5)

and there's mine.

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Post by Geordie Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:14 pm

Biltong

Morgan has been brought in as a ball carrier...and baring one good effort was almost annonymous.

Farrell....cant pass...cant read the game...and cant run with the ball....but he can kick and tackle. Can you imagine Australia or NZ playing a fly half with those skills!!!?

I thought he was horrific yesterday...which in turn as the key position...makes barritt tuilagi and the rest of the backline poor.

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Post by gowales Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:16 pm

Tbh i think England needed to utilise Morgan more. Have him run off the 10 and 12's and next to the rucks more. The only time he got the ball was from the kick offs and when he "intercepted" a Farrell pass!

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:27 pm

Morgan ran out of energy on about the 20 minute mark. Farrell was poor in all but goal kicking.

They are both inexperienced (but you should not inflate a mark because of that) and will improve.

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Post by Geordie Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:29 pm

But Gowales how can that happen...when the players at 10 and 12 have no creativity....or attacking instincts...


Last edited by GeordieFalcon on Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by gowales Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:30 pm

To be fair Morgan has just come back from injury so it isn't because he is unfit per se

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Post by gowales Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:31 pm

Exactly Geordie

You need to drop either Farrell and/or Barritt for Joseph and/or Flood

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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:31 pm

Morgan still performed, if he wasn't 100% fit, then there should be a pre planned time when he will come off.
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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:32 pm

gowales wrote:Exactly Geordie

You need to drop either Farrell and/or Barritt for Joseph and/or Flood

Well Barrit is out now, so why not Flood at 12?
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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:33 pm

biltongbek wrote:
gowales wrote:Exactly Geordie

You need to drop either Farrell and/or Barritt for Joseph and/or Flood

Well Barrit is out now, so why not Flood at 12?

No. Flood isn't a 12, we have 2 actual specialist 12s to back up Barritt.
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Post by flankertye Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:33 pm

Parling ran the lineout well, we were 7/7 at one point. Showed up well in the loose. As I said on another thread, Morgan needs to come on around 50-60, have Haskell do the hard work at the start.

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Post by Geordie Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:33 pm

No he's a 10 Bilt...i dont like him at 12...


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Post by Geordie Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:34 pm

flankertye wrote:Parling ran the lineout well, we were 7/7 at one point. Showed up well in the loose. As I said on another thread, Morgan needs to come on around 50-60, have Haskell do the hard work at the start.

Its funny...i thought he was AWOL in the loose....which for an ex back row player is not good....


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Post by gowales Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:37 pm

Botha and Parling lacked physicality in the loose i thought, they were good in the set piece but yea you need a big man in there.

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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:37 pm

OK, then how about this.

9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Ashton
12. Joseph
13. Tuilagi
14. Foden
15 Brown

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Post by thomh Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:45 pm

Joseph doesn't play 12 and I wouldn't be happy with him doing it for his (in practice) test debut at altitude in South Africa. An argument could be made to move Tuilagi in to 12 (not one I would necessarily agree with) but not Joseph.

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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:49 pm

Fine, I am really trying to help here, obviously I don't know enough of English rugby to make any usefull contribution here, so I'll go off into the sunset now ( he says whilst crawling away into a corner feeling very sorry for himself) Crying or Very sad
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Post by flankertye Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:52 pm

n'awww it's ok Biltong. Jesus christ I wish we had Garvey or Attwood.
We have a good/potentially world class front row. But we don't have enough grunt in the second row.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:54 pm

biltongbek wrote:Fine, I am really trying to help here, obviously I don't know enough of English rugby to make any usefull contribution here, so I'll go off into the sunset now ( he says whilst crawling away into a corner feeling very sorry for himself) Crying or Very sad

Hug

Thanks for the input Biltong. I'd rather play Allen at 12 to keep the combos from club level. Farrell on the bench as safety
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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:57 pm

I've left the building, can't see a word you guys are saying. Whistle

Just one last thought. Jean de Villiers is not a 13, but fot the good of the team he has been put there and it paid off.

Sometimes you need to think outside the box.England Player Ratings v SA Smiley-confused013
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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 10 Jun 2012, 5:59 pm

biltongbek wrote:I've left the building, can't see a word you guys are saying. Whistle

Just one last thought. Jean de Villiers is not a 13, but fot the good of the team he has been put there and it paid off.

Sometimes you need to think outside the box.England Player Ratings v SA Smiley-confused013

Yeah, like Foden at wing. But I don't think is the time or place to play JJ or Manu at 12
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Post by Biltong Sun 10 Jun 2012, 6:04 pm

Fine, no more ideas from my side. steam
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