Apology and Moral Victories, my mistake

Good morning, my friends.
Yesterday, in the moral victory thread, I wrote something which may have shut down any meaningful discusson. It was getting late, and I was rather verbose and high handed. What I wrote was inappropriate, and I apologise if anyone felt this was sanctimonious or insulting to good debate surrounding what was truly a great day of Rugby:

I owe an apology to all, and I sincerely regret what I wrote (below). The expression moral victory is commonly used in sport referring to teams who play bravely but come up a bit short. For reasons I still can't identify, I inappropriately connected it to very real life situations which I went through with a number of people far better than I. Some of whom never came back, some suffered serious injuries, and others still have to deal with the recurring memories which hamper them to this day.

Despite being separated from it for many years, I still get recalled from time to time in my medical capacity to support people bravely doing what most people consider the unthinkable in awful conditions. There are times when the idea of closing my eyes when going to sleep can be scary. Though as true Brits, we also know we must brass it out because there is really nothing else to do.

There are a variety of methods which are recommended to accommodate, and we know what it is called, and there is no way to forget. Ever, But it is/was what I do and I deal, because there is no choice. All medications I have always staunchly refused, except occasionally those which are measured two fingers at a time or those which come in a pint glass. But, I found the best way to deal is to spend time with my family. Then to focus on the work (trying to mend people is a good thing). Finally, is the idiotic sport of Rugby. No sane person would ever play Rugby. Which makes all of us just a bit crazy, and I say that with the utmost affection. Playing with a club is a sense of fraternity, camaraderie, and connection which is rare and startlingly unique. Knowing someone is always is behind me in support is the greatest feeling having been in situations where it might not have been so. Maybe this is my way of dealing. But as a 12 1/2 stone centre who is still playing despite increasing age and more injuries than I can count leaves me feeling great.

I mentioned my family. Some of you know my greatest thrill is watching my lads, 13 and 15, grow into fine men. I also have daughters who are smart, incisive, caring, strong, and lovely beyond the ability of my bloodlines. Without them I can do nothing.

So, again, my apology. it was not my intention to shut down debate about 'moral victories'. I know it was really meant about being close and what can be taken from it. I overreacted, wrote something about myself which I never done before, and that was wrong.

But somewhere in the back of my aged and Rugby addled mind, I have to feel I could have knocked Willem Alberts back a few steps. Maybe in my better dreams..........

doctor_grey wrote:"Moral Victory" is simply a term and rationale associated with losing:

When I was in Iraq, after losing a bunch of lads in a running fight, an officer told me this was a moral victory. After this fight, I spent more than 24 hours straight trying to save or fix up a bunch of fine men in a field with shells all around, and still fighting to simply survive. In response to that inane comment, my fist accidentally splattered his nose and then the other broke his cheekbone. He was sent home with injuries sustained 'in battle'. We stayed. However, at that specific point in time I believe he gained the utter clarity that moral victories do not exist and the term is not worth the air expended is using the term. That frames my feeling about the term. Sorry for going off.

England played well. But not enough. Close, no cigar. But enough to learn from and do better the next time. Which I fully expect. The Boks learned less about England than England did about the Boks.

Wales played well and almost nosed in front. Unfortunately they were undone by a more clinical outfit. Wales could have won, but came up short. They have a real good shot next week. I don't think they are patient enough at this point in their development to have withstood the Boks. But maybe soon.

I feel for Ireland. The score line could have been worse, and their try was against the run of play. Sadly, the worst of the NH teams playing today. In dire need or a real overhaul. Don't think they were man-for-man better at any position, except for Sean O'Brien, who was clearly one of the best players on the pitch, maybe one of the best playing today.

How many accounts do you have?

one.

Of course.

doctor_grey I would have also punched him

Nothing to be a ashamed of dude, not in the eyes of the sane anyhow... either the action recalled or post.

Doc,

We all have things that trigger certain responses. Your behaviour on the board is never childish or intentionally offensive. You have no reason to apologise, but I am glad you did as I had not read the original post you made and are worried about. I am now glad I had the opportunity to read it. Thanks.

LondonTiger.
Thanks to you, fa0019, and Cymroglan(!). Really do appreciate it.

But please remember I am a Saints fan. You are from the dark side. If we ever have the opportunity meet in the middle or a halftime for a pint sometime, I will be happy to buy. However, if you wear the Tigers silly new kit, you are buying.........

welliamwibb wrote:How many accounts do you have?

Any issues I need to be aware of welliamwibb?

hey Doc. no worries man, you said what you felt. I am sure the posters on here know you well enough to understand when a man gets a little hot under the collar now and then.

Cheers.
Again.

crikey doc. i read it and thought it fine. a little OTT but fine, no apology needed.

I think it was an interesting post that at the very least put into perspective that things are much more important than rugby, even though it wasn't the actual aim of the post

I've not read the actual thread but I have can see no issues with your post. Maybe it needs reading with the rest of the posts in that thread for the true context but I can't be bothered to do that so I'll just stick with my initial evaluation.

But then again I'm another Saints fan so what do I know.

This thread, the original post and responses, are why I like this board.

But be careful, such level headed, mature conversations will give the internet a bad name....

I read your post with interest. Nice of you to apologise - but I really don't think it was necessary.
You had an interesting comment to make based on your own particular experience. About as valid as a post gets in my book.

Grey,

I am sorry that you felt you needed to apologise for posting that but, at the same time, I am glad you did otherwise I would not have got to read it.

Rugby is great mostly because of the type of folk who play and support it.

Your post just reinforces that feeling.

I hope your family, job and sport continue to help with the bad "stuff".

Pint for Dr Grey

Doc,
I meant to comment on it man. I thought it was the sharpest post on the subject. I repected you before. Big time. But I respect you even more now.
Id have shot the guy in that situation. In the foot like.

Believe.

Im a Paddy. In sport, we were brought up on Moral Victories. What a load of bollix. It is in complete opposition to the very essence of it. Compete to win.

If you lose, fair enough. Great to compete. But claiming moral victories?

P.S Your kids have a superb role-model.

Doc, great post.

Man, that officer was lucky to get off with a battered face given the circumstances... that puts sport into perspective. Moral victories (in the context of sport) are just a way of trying to make defeat taste less sour. I hate the phrase. It's a comfort blanket designed to give you a false sense of accomplishment when sometimes you need to be really ruthlessly self-critical to get to the level you need to be.

Gibson wrote:Doc,
I meant to comment on it man. I thought it was the sharpest post on the subject. I repected you before. Big time. But I respect you even more now.
Id have shot the guy in that situation. In the foot like.

I think there is a certain satisfaction in breaking someone's nose, rather than shooting him.

biltongbek wrote:

Gibson wrote:Doc,
I meant to comment on it man. I thought it was the sharpest post on the subject. I repected you before. Big time. But I respect you even more now.
Id have shot the guy in that situation. In the foot like.

I think there is a certain satisfaction in breaking someone's nose, rather than shooting him.

You are not satisfied with are you Biltong.

.........

I saw the original post, had no problem with it - a useful reminder if anything.

well if you gonna hit someone, you might as well go full bore, eh?

You might as well go full... boer

Notch wrote:You might as well go full... boerbore

or was it a case of pardon the pun?

Great post Doc... your personal experiences puts it all into perspective.

On a slight tangent - I get a little rattled when I hear commentators use war analogies in sport.

Use of the words/phrases "battle" and "it's trench warfare out there... ", etc.

We all know what they are trying to say but somehow the comparison pales into insignificance with the reality of a real battle or actual trench warfare. They tend to use these words a lot these days - and the real meaning seems to be misunderstood.

Doc...like everyone is saying there is no need to apologise as your original post is VALID. Moral victories are defeats and should not be used to try and pretend that everything is alright, when clearly it is not. People learn more from defeats than victories, which is fine as long as those lessons are actually used to improve the team. Those in the Northern Hemisphere need our teams to register more victories over the Southern Hemisphere to keep our great game more interesting. Results are the important thing and next weekend we need some to go our way. However this will only be achieved if our teams improve significantly and create and take their chances.

No one should be happy with gallant defeat or moral victories. England were beasted by SA again. Remember Twickers when expectations were high after scoring great tries against Australia and Lawes, Palmer etc got smashed back. Next Sat SL must come up with a game plan that works or we will suffer another defeat, which is not acceptable in my book.

I agree with hugehandoff, when we lose a test, there is NEVER a moral victory, only anger, frustration and Bruce.

biltongbek wrote:I agree with hugehandoff, when we lose a test, there is NEVER a moral victory, only anger, frustration and Bruce or Wayne.

Fixed that for you

Spot on Kiwi.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I agree with hugehandoff, when we lose a test, there is NEVER a moral victory, only anger, frustration and Bruce or Wayne.

Fixed that for you

Hmmm, I made an inadvertant pop culture reference 'Holy "remove the or" Batman'

To all, once again, my profound thanks. There are no other words.
In appreciation and respect, a few of my favourite quotes:

It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
- Theodore Roosevelt

A champion is someone who gets up when he can't.
- Jack Dempsey

It is not in the stars to hold our destiny but in ourselves.
- William Shakespeare

And I will add one more, because it might have more meaning than all the others:

Believe.........

Dr Grey,
no need to apologise really mate.
Your post certainly puts our rugby interests into some perspective.
(BTW, I thought Doctors swear to 'do no harm' but sounds like you did some to that officer, though understandable in the circumstances).

If only all international disputes could be settled by a rugby match.
But thanks for posting your reflective story.
GR

If only all international disputes could be settled by a rugby match.

NZ would rule the world, and the Haka would no longer be an issue.

gregortree wrote:Dr Grey,
no need to apologise really mate.
Your post certainly puts our rugby interests into some perspective.
(BTW, I thought Doctors swear to 'do no harm' but sounds like you did some to that officer, though understandable in the circumstances).

If only all international disputes could be settled by a rugby match.
But thanks for posting your reflective story.
GR

Strictly I think the hippocratic oath only applies to those under the doctor's care?

Please allow me to explain.
There is a little known codicil in the Hippocratic Oath that applies to those unique cases of people diagnosed with having a bumhole instead of a mouth. The provocateur was so diagnosed. The provocatee, your faithful and upright servant, was thereby obliged to perform the requisite facial reconstruct. All done very professionally, exactly as trained (by the Army).

Also you never actually sign or say any hippocratic oath - you just get called up infront of the GMC if you are naughty. Doctors are still allowed to get into fights with idiots...as long as they don't get arrested for assault.

Doc

Nice post, but what a chuffer who used 'Moral Victory' after a firefight.

glad you clocked him.

In fact, Moral Victory should really be only used in a verbal/written context, not physical action. It simply cannot be used to describe any sport where one loses methinks

100% agree

I don't understand fans that look for positives when your team loses.

Winning is all that matters, by any means possible.

I don't agree with the last bit Hersh.

for example, would you apply that to the current England team who are building for the coming world Cup, hell, even the NEXT one.

At Elite level Winning matters, but before that, if a team want to be feared and count itself amongst the best in the world, this it first needs to Skill, Consistency and Purpose. Without those Winning will just be a one of and at Elite level thats meaningless.

Winning is all that matters, by any means possible.

I play my chosen sport a step below Elite level, I am a national level 2 qualified coach in that sport, that view is wrong and misguided.

It might apply to simpler sports, at lower levels, or money influenced wendyball, but not Rugby and other Elite sports.

You are wrong.

Winning is all that matters.

HERSH wrote:100% agree

I don't understand fans that look for positives when your team loses.

Winning is all that matters, by any means possible.

Would you consider the tag 'Unlucky' to be a clutcher-of-straws in the positives-seeking field of sports psychology, Hersh?

I can't believe there are so many of you that settles for coming 2nd, 3rd and 4th best.

Sport is all about winning at the top level, otherwise why bother?

But I repeat, England's loss to SA was it 'unlucky' or did they just lose?

HERSH wrote:I can't believe there are so many of you that settles for coming 2nd, 3rd and 4th best.

Sport is all about winning at the top level, otherwise why bother?

It must be tough for you at the moment then Hersh, Bath and England

PS

HERSH wrote:
...
and as for England we can't make the final every year it was our time to sit on the sidelines and allow the other teams to play.

HERSH wrote:
I can't believe there are so many of you that settles for coming 2nd, 3rd and 4th best.

Sport is all about winning at the top level, otherwise why bother?

Kiwireddevil wrote:

HERSH wrote:I can't believe there are so many of you that settles for coming 2nd, 3rd and 4th best.

Sport is all about winning at the top level, otherwise why bother?

It must be tough for you at the moment then Hersh, Bath and England

Ouch!