EPS & Saxons: Development Bragging Rights

Stuart Lancaster named 64 players yesterday in the two squads. With the experience in the Saxons squad (Deacon, Wiggy, Monye, strettle) this is obviously viewed as a second string squad, not a development squad. Now it is fairly easy to see where these guys are plying their trade and claim some bragging rights about how your club helps th eEngland cause - but really it is more valid to see where these players learnt their trade. So to compare and contrast:

Current Club
Bath - 6
Exeter Chiefs - 1
Gloucester - 5
Harlequins - 9
Leicester Tigers - 13
London Irish - 4
Northampton Saints - 8
Sale Sharks - 3
Saracens - 8
Wasps - 5
Worcester - 2


Development Origin
Bath - 2
Gloucester - 5
Harlequins - 8
Leeds - 4
Leicester Tigers - 8
London Irish - 4
Lower Leagues - 2
Newcastle Falcons - 6
Northampton Saints - 2
Overseas - 6
Sale Sharks - 5
Saracens - 2
Wasps - 5
Worcester - 5

Well this clearly demonstrates just how biassed Martin Johnson was towards Tigers, whilst at the same time proving MickyPhils other point that Tigers dont supply their fare share of England players.
The opposite may of course be true in both cases.

Amazed theres no LW players in there *cough* None in the origin from Exeter either tbf, but at least they supply a good chunk of the England age grade players now.

Are we claiming that Ashton is a product of Saints and not RL?

LT, it is interesting, thanks for putting that together. One thing it highlights for me is that Exe players clearly don't register very highly with the England management (at least a couple of others could have cases for being in the Saxons, i think). Doesn't Exe get credit for developing TJ either? He came to us when we were in the Championship and I think we could make a reasonable case for having developed his career to its current level?

Asbo - I was torn with Johnson as to whether to class him as Lower Leagues or Exeter. To be consistent with the last tim eI did this (when I classed Easter and Strettle as lower leagues rather than Quins) I placed him thus.

And yes onthis case I deemed Ashton as developed in RU by Saints - though it was a close call. Other marginals include Hartley (who left NZ pretty young), Botha (who should perhaps be Lower Leagues) and Stevens.

Yeah i really hope we at the Chiefs can start to pull our weight soon. As PSW says our academy is starting to churn out some very good young prospects.

There does seem to be a lot of young guns coming through at Exeter and I hope they get some game time. I heard a rumour that Lightfoot-Brown the fb has signed up with the Englands 7s team for this season so Exeter won't have him to call on if this is true. Any Cheifs fans want to predict any of the academy boys breaking onto the scene?

Nice to see Leeds are still represented despite not being in the AP. They've got a good academy up there.

formerly known as Sam wrote:There does seem to be a lot of young guns coming through at Exeter and I hope they get some game time. I heard a rumour that Lightfoot-Brown the fb has signed up with the Englands 7s team for this season so Exeter won't have him to call on if this is true. Any Cheifs fans want to predict any of the academy boys breaking onto the scene?

Nice to see Leeds are still represented despite not being in the AP. They've got a good academy up there.

PSW, we released James Lightfoot-Brown and he has joined England 7s time on a 2-year contract, I believe. He's mainly a scrum-half, tho he appeared for our A-team at fullback just the once.

Closest to breaking on to the scene from the youffs are Jack Nowell, Jack Arnott, Luke Cowan-Dickie and Sam Hill - i would expect to see all four of them at least in LV= games this year, possibly Henry Slade too

LondonTiger wrote:Asbo - I was torn with Johnson as to whether to class him as Lower Leagues or Exeter. To be consistent with the last tim eI did this (when I classed Easter and Strettle as lower leagues rather than Quins) I placed him thus.

And yes onthis case I deemed Ashton as developed in RU by Saints - though it was a close call. Other marginals include Hartley (who left NZ pretty young), Botha (who should perhaps be Lower Leagues) and Stevens.

Grey areas - Johnson would have been significantly developed by Exeter when in the Lower Leagues. Similarly, it's arguable that Ashton's most significant development was in the Lower Leagues during's Saints sojourn in ND1. Marler's development - most significant at Quins or at Esher? Leeds players- did they spend more time developing in Prem or in Lower Leagues of ND1/Championship?

By lower leagues I generally mean teams who have not really threatened the Premiership. Maybe harsh on Rotherham where Strettle developed.

So take Johnson - much of his career was below the championship, while Botha played for the junior team in Bedford before joining the Blues.

Marler was developed by the Quins system - which includes loaning players out to lower league clubs.

Depends what you call development without the shop window - e.g. Johnson with Exeter, Botha with Saracens, Ashton with Saints -these guys wouldn't be considered by England without these clubs.

I think it's unfair to completely ignore the teams they currently play for just because they didn't start their careers there.

Personally I would look at the clubs that they were at when they got their first England cap.

Well someones going to have to pick up the slack caused by the demise of Leeds and Newcatsle.

BS, he hasnt comepletly ignored teams that players arent at now, hes produced two lists. In a few cases there could of course be a thirdclub that gets in the mix, but this does give a broad indication of where current EPS players have come from.

What it does ignore of course is the impact of the RFU academies and age group set up, Im sure Lancster would claim many of them were products of his work rather than the clubs.

beshocked wrote:Depends what you call development without the shop window - e.g. Johnson with Exeter, Botha with Saracens, Ashton with Saints -these guys wouldn't be considered by England without these clubs.

I think it's unfair to completely ignore the teams they currently play for just because they didn't start their careers there.

Personally I would look at the clubs that they were at when they got their first England cap.

What like Dowson for Saints? Even though he 'seems' to be playing worse than he did at Falcons. Same with Parling at Leicester. Playing at Leicester doesn't seem to have massively improved his game. But he's got better players around him that allows him to perform his own bit better.

And thats why we need a Strong Newcastle Falcons!

and there is no demise of the Falcons Peter....

We are regrouping this season and will come back next season stronger than ever....and trust me..the current academy is bursting at the seams with talent...and ironically being in the championship means they should all be blooded sooner than maybe they would have.

Example a young lad 6'9 at blaydon who was awesome for blaydon colts at 8 but played his first game for the Seniors at wing.... He will most likely go to 4/5 i would say like a Ritchie Gray style athletic powerhouse.

Example a young lad 6'9 at blaydon who was awesome for blaydon colts at 8 but played his first game for the Seniors at wing.... He will most likely go to 4/5 i would say like a Ritchie Gray style athletic powerhouse.

Sounds a great player Geordie. Dibbs on him then.

I really hope Falcons bounce back, was a real shame that they got relegated, though the team that played last season never really struck me as a 'Newcastle team' I think there were too many foreign journeymen and with Hudson's injuries the loss of leadership and club culture hurt them. Deano will help bring that back and the days of the opposition wincing at the thought of a brutal Friday night in Newcastle.

You've hit the nail on the head Sam...it seemed to be Alan Taits vision to bring so many foreigners in...instead of a few good ones.

But hey we deserved to go down...we were crap!

We will come back stronger...and i would say with a more English / British core, but keep a few of the good foreigners like Tui'Fua a beast of a back rower etc.

And those tough friday nights on the frozen pitches will be back

Ben Kay still says on the commentary that it used to be toughest game of the season. Get that back and the Falcons will be fine. The signings so far this summer look more positive, especially, if Gopperth is moved out of the 10 spot and your young guns get free reign there.

Yeah thats a big aspect...get Catterick at 10.

Deano will help bring that back and the days of the opposition wincing at the thought of a brutal Friday night in Newcastle..

And those tough friday nights on the frozen pitches will be back .

and here's me thinking you were talking about being on the lash!

Or did you mean frozen Bitches?