England rugby captain for the AIs

Robshaw clearly as the incumbent is most likely to be the man to look to.

He was of course player of the season 2011-12 and was eminently successful last term.

However, with the return from injury of Woods (player of the season 2010-11) and Croft, the return of Haskell, the late emergence of Johnson and so on does make the blindside flanker position more competitive.

Hartley nailed-on as hooker but his disciplinary record is poor and I'm not convinced about his decision-making in the captain's role. However I do like a man who focusses the ire of other teams and supporters to put a finger up and mess the mind of the opposition. Being captain might redouble that as skipper. But he'd have to up his pre-match wind-ups in the style of Moore and Healey.

Unfortunately the only other man as I see with a nailed-on place is Dan Cole and I have heard of no glowing references as to his leadership potential

Haskell will be a good capatin. And also Mouritz Botha if they ever figure out the Botha is a 6 and not a lock.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Haskell will be a good capatin. And also Mouritz Botha if they ever figure out the Botha is a 6 and not a lock.

Good but not undroppable AWoP.

Botha should not be in the team let alone feicing captain.
Wood might not play again
Hartleys position should not be nailed on...a good start by any of the young guys could see him ousted...
And Haskell is in the Saxons so hardly 1st choice for captain!

Why would Robshaw not be captain? I can't see how he would be dropped by Lancaster

I think for now Robshaw should keep the captains arm band. What with Wood, not having any game time behind this season,.

Hartley, although will probably keep the starting Hooker spot he is not garunteed to keep it what with Youngs, Webber, coming along in the squad.

I would od like Flood to be Captain but with him getting so many injuries. So no, for now stick with Robshaw.

yappysnap wrote:Why would Robshaw not be captain? I can't see how he would be dropped by Lancaster

Is he the best in his position Yappy?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Botha should not be in the team let alone feicing captain.
Wood might not play again
Hartleys position should not be nailed on...a good start by any of the young guys could see him ousted...
And Haskell is in the Saxons so hardly 1st choice for captain!

Yes he struggle to make the mark as a lock, but he will make a great blindside.

majesticimperialman wrote:I think for now Robshaw should keep the captains arm band. What with Wood, not having any game time behind this season,.

Hartley, although will probably keep the starting Hooker spot he is not garunteed to keep it what with Youngs, Webber, coming along in the squad.

I would od like Flood to be Captain but with him getting so many injuries. So no, for now stick with Robshaw.

You been on the smoke this weekend mate? Put him under serious pressure and his game falls apart....and you suggest him as captain...??

No way Flood is captain material. Plus he's not got his place nailed on. In fact the only time he really shines is when Youngs is his inside partner.
I still say that the skipper should be unassailable in his current position and adaptable for different styles of play with his partners.

Hartley is the one man with any experience and Cole has no history in leadership.

That would be my short-list.

Pick a skipper from a team - and if you want consistency - pick the man most likely not to be dropped.

Portnoy,

If you want a guy who is guaranteed first team for England and has experience as captain then its Dylan Hartley. I can't think of another option.

I think Robshaw is fine going into the Autumn though. It can be readdressed come the 6 Nations then.

Tell you what (slight digression) but the Lions captaincy is going to be very interesting.

Robshaw is the man with the shirt so he won't lose it for now bar injury.

Personally I not yet convinced he should be starting however... if he isn't working then Lancaster has to have the courage to make big decisions.... that is one thing that I worry about Lancaster, he doesn't seem to have more than a plan A.

It reminds me of ENG under Will Carling.... good player at the start of his career but from 95 onwards he was keeping better men out of the shirt and restricting ENG backline.

A captain has to do more than put his body on the line and show guts... he has to prove he is better than the guy he is competing with for the shirt.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Botha should not be in the team let alone feicing captain.
Wood might not play again
Hartleys position should not be nailed on...a good start by any of the young guys could see him ousted...
And Haskell is in the Saxons so hardly 1st choice for captain!

Why is that? Is his injury that serious?

Nobody seems to know what is going on with Wood's injury

Well do you know what it is that he has actually injured? Knee? Shoulder? Or is it multiple things?

It's his big toe isn't it?

Foot

And nobody knows what is going on? Or when/if he will be back? That is a shame, he is some player IMO.

Seems to be on the road to recovery.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3823_7880765,00.html

England should pick the best 15 for each game and then pick the Captain from them... A Captain should be appointed on a game by game basis..

pbuk0 "best 15" is not a simple story. There can be many "best 15" combinator depending on game plan and style and opponent. So some times is best to make a team to one particular strength and build balance around some players. So makes a sense to pick a strong captain first in the mould to the team combinator you try to inelibate.

pbuk0 wrote:England should pick the best 15 for each game and then pick the Captain from them... A Captain should be appointed on a game by game basis..

I don't agree with that at all, look at what happened to France under Mad Marc. You need to pick your core players and build a squad around that. You need to pick your captain. Otherwise it will just be disjointed and inconsistent if you are just plucking out different players each game. Sometimes you stick with players even if they aren't the best individuals at that time, because they form the backbone of the team. You need to create a consistent team with a structured game plan.

So, the possibilities are: I) A nailed on starter whom most people think would be dicey captaincy material; ii) A nailed on starter whom most people think has no captaincy potential; iii) various players who are neither certainties nor experienced captains; iv) various players competing for the incumbent's position who might or might not be fit, in form, decent captains or part of a back row that's better than any combination involving the incumbent; or v) an incumbent who's done well in both his position and as captain.

Pretty silly debate really. There isn't an ideal option, but ii, iii and iv seem pointlessly rash until one of them's made a case over several games. So it's i or v. And i seems a big risk unless Robshaw is injured or loses enough form that someone else has obviously overtaken him.

Has to be Robshaw for now. Really is no alternative at the moment. But its not as if we are talking about Borthwick's captaincy, are we? Robshaw did fine. There are plenty of options in the back row. but to me, a player must be better than the captain to knock a captain off his perch, and we are not there yet. Maybe after the November tests we will have a different picture.

Hartley did fine as stand-in captain against the Boks, and almost led England to a victory. However, I believe he should have seen Farrell had the yips at the end: He should not have let Farrell attempt the drop kick until England were closer and had more time to set a strong platform behind which a nervous Farrell would not have had to rush the kick. To be fair, though, it has been rare for an England captain to have to make that kind of decision in a long time.

Wood has a very strange injury. A longitudinal fracture in his big toe with attendent ligament damage. This is very unusual and the medical team was not sure either the root cause or the best approach to correct it. The Saints medical team feel comfortable he will be healthy for the start of the season. My sense is he should play himself back into game shape before being considered for England, let alone the England captaincy. Perhaps by the 6 Nations.....

My sense is he should play himself back into game shape before being considered for England, let alone the England captaincy. Perhaps by the 6 Nations.....

I totaly agree with you about a player having to play him self BACK INTO THE NATIONAL team.

No player being out as long as he as been should be allowed to walk back in the National team. They should have to hern the right to wear the shirt.

Yeah definitely. If a player thinks they can just walk back into the team, they will be content with how they play. If you make a player have to fight for his place and show him his opposition, you will bring the best out of him, as he will do everything he can to get his spot on the team. This is another reason why having great backup options is necessary. It means the guy with the shirt must keep playing at his best in order to stay on the team.

Unfortunately Ireland often bring injured players straight back into the starting spot, without even having to prove much beforehand. Nor do the back up players ever get a chance to actually challenge the shirt. That is why the likes of Heaslip and D'Arcy etc seem to be under no threat when they should be.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Botha should not be in the team let alone feicing captain.
Wood might not play again
Hartleys position should not be nailed on...a good start by any of the young guys could see him ousted...
And Haskell is in the Saxons so hardly 1st choice for captain!

Why is that? Is his injury that serious?

Youd assume that England do know hes OK now. they would have full access to his medical records etc.
Its possible that his inclusion in the senior EPS was to ensure that the RFU medical staff have full control over his rehabilitation, or it may be the case that they are completley satisfied he will recover fully by October.
If there is any genuine doubt over him then frankly Lancaster needs to sort his life out.

I dont really agree with him beings stuck straight back in till hes had a chance to prove nearly a year out hasnt left him short of sharpness and form. Yes he was Lancaster first choice as captain and did well but they have a very similar player in Croft and good competition for the back row shirts. Im not sure what message this sends out to Haskell whos made sacrifices and performed well for England recently.

In terms of captaincy Hartely is well settled in the team( the choices of hookers prove that if being given the captaincy didnt) so youd assume that if its not Robshaw it will be him.

I'd stick with Robshaw in the 7 jersey for the AIs at least. Croft or Johnson at 6, with Waldrom, Morgan or Haskell at 8, all decided on form. Let Wood play himself back into fitness and form for the Saints.

Thought Robshaw did a fine job on the summer tour, and played pretty well too.

Wood:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Youd assume that England do know hes OK now. they would have full access to his medical records etc.
Its possible that his inclusion in the senior EPS was to ensure that the RFU medical staff have full control over his rehabilitation, or it may be the case that they are completley satisfied he will recover fully by October.

I agree with your suggestion the RFU want access to Wood and as much control over his recovery as possible. To me, this illustrates how important they feel he can be on the pitch. But, I would keep in mind his injury is unusual. Earlier on, it was reported they werenot sure how to proceed with this injury. Since then, he was evaluated and treated by some of the best foot docs in the country. With not a lot of history with this kind of injury, I hope he is given as much time to recover and rehab as he needs. If he stays injury free by Christmas and back to his best, then we can start to think seriously about the 6 Nations. Beforehand, and my intuition tells me we may be rushing him. I hope I am wrong.

wood was out for a while with a completely different injury, made his comeback, and was instantaneously excellant for saints. He made a few appearances and then picked up this unusual injury. if he can prove his fitness and his form picks up where it left off i see no reason he cant make the AI's.

possibly englands best back rower?

Bar injury it'll have to be Robshaw if SL wants to build any continuity. I thought Johnson had a decent tour (and was excellent last season) but as Wood was being touted as Captain prior to his injury I'd expect him to get in the team (bar another injury and poor form naturally). The big issue is fitting in Croft too and whilst I don't agree with this I wouldn't be surprised to see him at lock.

HongKongCherry wrote:Bar injury it'll have to be Robshaw if SL wants to build any continuity. I thought Johnson had a decent tour (and was excellent last season) but as Wood was being touted as Captain prior to his injury I'd expect him to get in the team (bar another injury and poor form naturally). The big issue is fitting in Croft too and whilst I don't agree with this I wouldn't be surprised to see him at lock.

England are already underpowered at lock with Parling, Croft is under 17 stone, far too light for a lock in todays game. He need to get closer to 18 stone to be considered in that role.

Hartley captained England to their best result in SA, if Wood, Croft, Johnson or Haskell for that matter are playing better than him, I would have no hesitation in dropping him to the bench and giving the captaincy to Hartley, after him I am at a loss unless Wood was in the side.

I actually think that he would make a good 8, he has played there on a few occasions and performed well, with him at 8, Croft and Wood and 6 and 7 respectively and Haskell on the bench to cover all positions, we would have a massively dynamic back row and an impressive lineout as well

I'd expect Lawes and Attwood to be closely monitored for the lock positions, Well-Past-It. Lawes is recovered/ing. And I was impressed when they worked together.

Well Past It, I agree Croft isn't suited to lock, but I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised to see him play there. We haven't set the word alight at lock and I can see them trying different combinations.

SL really needs to assess his options closer to the AIs to ensure that form is a big factor. I do not advocate chopping and changing unnecessarily as continuity does matter and class is permanent etc and really good players will lift their games for the internationals, but I do want the option of including a player who really sticks their hand up. If that is a prop, lock, back row or whoever I don't care. We must be able to make a selection based on all the sensible criteria and that might give us a different squad to what we might think it should be now. Hopefully SL will have some hard choices to make.

Well what ever happens...that squad will have picked up some serious experience playing against a SA team that at times played at such a ferocious intensity.

A lot of inexperienced English guys did well...and hopefully now know the level they must rise to both ability and physically...

Robshaw is the best captain we've had since Johnson retired, he's the perfect blindside who is just as capable at openside.

On a side note, Wood is massively overrated.

robshaw4england wrote:On a side note, Wood is massively overrated.

I think he still has much to prove but perhaps that's a different argument. From my perspective, at International level he had good games against Wales and Italy in last years 6N's, then his performance, along with Englands it has to be said, tailed off sharply. So for me, the jury is still out but I hope he does step up consistently as England really need all the International class players it can get.

robshaw4england wrote:Robshaw is the best captain we've had since Johnson retired, he's the perfect blindside who is just as capable at openside.

He could be, but he isn't yet. Corry was definitely the best since MJ, he captained England admirably through a rather dark period.

Beaker wrote:

robshaw4england wrote:On a side note, Wood is massively overrated.

I think he still has much to prove but perhaps that's a different argument. From my perspective, at International level he had good games against Wales and Italy in last years 6N's, then his performance, along with Englands it has to be said, tailed off sharply. So for me, the jury is still out but I hope he does step up consistently as England really need all the International class players it can get.

Actually i thought he was huge in the Ireland game...one of the only England players who actually stood firm when the rest of our pack was being dismantled and going backwards at warp speed.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Actually i thought he was huge in the Ireland game...one of the only England players who actually stood firm when the rest of our pack was being dismantled and going backwards at warp speed.....

Fair enough Geordie, maybe i'm wrong but iirc we were smashed in the first half which was when the game was lost. In the second half we manned up as a pack and it was a more even contest. I won't argue the toss though, I think he's a decent player but has to do a fair bit more to do before he can be called anything more than that at International level.

Edit - To be clear, when I say England were smashed, I include Wood's in that. I remember blowing a gasket at how ineffectual all our forwards were in that first half.

Last season England, France, Wales, Australia and New Zealand all had their openside as captain, I do not consider that is a coincidence given the importance of the breakdown these days and the general latitude that is given to skippers.

Whoever is captain should play at seven which means either Robshaw or Wood, given Haskell appears out of favour.

I meant last season and this season, SH wise....

Nah i dont think so about captains at 7.

Most influential player, inspirational talker or do'er should be Captain...like Bod, Johnson, John Eales, Fitzy, McCaw etc....

Robshaw has done a reasonable job...but i dont think he's untouchable...alongwith probably 13 of the 15 England spots (only Cole and Foden are totally safe)