Article on Welsh rugby losing players abroad

May 25th, 2012 by MarkL


Welsh rugby fans departing for foreign lands in the professional era of rugby is nothing new. The likes of Colin Charvis (Tarbes), Chris Wyatt (Munster), Rob Howely (Wasps) and Stephen Jones (Clermont), to name a few, all departed our borders in search of a handsome wage when at the back end of their playing careers.

Similarly, players who realised that future opportunities of playing for the national side were becoming increasingly remote also upped sticks – Nicky Robinson (Wasps), his brother Jamie (Agen), Gareth Delve (Melbourne) and Alix Popham (Brive) being some of the higher profile examples.

So, why the alarm at the recent exodus? Perhaps it’s just the sheer number of current internationals in close proximity who are leaving, or have not long left, the regions. Lee Byrne, Mike Phillips and James Hook all departed last season, of course, and come September, Luke Charteris, Gethin Jenkins, Richie Rees, Huw Bennett, Paul James and Aled Brew will be plying their trade on foreign fields.

But a closer look suggests things maybe aren’t so bad as they first appear. All of these players listed are nearer 30 years of age than they are 20, and with the exception of Charteris, Phillips and Jenkins, were not first choice for Wales in 2012.

A positive spin, then, is that these departures offer a great opportunity for Wales’ young players to develop, with the big names no longer limiting their game time. Consider the case of Rhys Webb, the young scrum half who earned a call up to the Wales squad following impressively consistent displays for his region this season, culminating in his first cap as a replacement in the win over Italy in the Six Nations. In an interview earlier this month, Webb said,

“It’s been a tough couple of years at the Ospreys in my position, with the likes of Mike Phillips and Justin Marshall there… They gave me a chance over Mike last season… and I’ve just kept going from there.”

There is a good chance that Webb may have broken through this season anyway, but there can be little doubt that big name departures have given him more chances to shine and to take on greater responsibility, and the player has blossomed as a consequence.

Whilst depth of talent has always been a problem in Wales in the professional era, there are good signs of another talented crop of youngsters on the horizon. In his first full season, Scarlets 21 year old full-back, Liam Williams, was named the region’s players’ player of the year, as well as the LV=Cup Breakthrough Player ahead of fellow-nominated Welshmen Matthew Morgan of the Ospreys and 21 year old Scarlets centre Adam Warren. Likewise, Harry Robinson has been pulling up trees at the Blues, drawing favourable comparisons with namesake and former England pro Jason Robinson by Welsh coach Warren Gatland.

Also, let’s remember that the young players who shone at the World Cup, such as Faletau, Warburton, Priestland and Lydiate, will still be pulling on Welsh regions’ jerseys come September. As will George North and Alex Cuthbert who, most of us will confess, we hadn’t even heard of 18 months ago. And who’s to say that another few young Welsh gems won’t be unearthed in the coming season too.

Suddenly, things don’t seem so bad. Heineken Cup anyone?

Perhaps I am having an increasing number of Senior Moments as I get older, but I cannot understand why having a larger number of Welsh players getting regular game time at a variety of professional clubs is a Bad Thing for Welsh rugby.

How can it possible be a bad thing to free up slots in the domestic game for younger players, whilst ensuring that the established incumbents continue to test themselves against good quality opposition and improve?

Tell me, what is the stance of Welsh rugby Union when it comes to overseas players?

Are they still in contention to play for Wales?

Yes they are. But we have had issues getting players released in England, less so in France.

These days I think it is only NZ who won't cap overseas All Blacks. Its pretty tough, but if leagues like the Top 14 and AP have massive budgets players will move abroad for cash.

As the poster above you states, I cant see it as a bad thing, the only time it effects Wales is when we cant get players released.

The release issue is only for games/training outside the IRB windows.
The real problem with overseas based players is lack of control over how many games they play, their training regime, and getting them regularly playing with their national side teammates.

The flip side of this, as has been pointed out, means Wales effectively have almost an extra regions worth of professional players.
The same is true for Scotland who would find it very hard to maintain a large enough pool of international ready players in just 2 professional clubs.

In terms of impact on the regions...well they dont seem to be any better or worse than they have been for most of the professional era. They have made a stand to stop wage inflation busting them, hopefuly they can remain competitive and financially viable.

I think with the number of players playing all over the world these days it is imperitave that the IRB start considering a global season to enable countries easier access to their players.

I am thinking August - November might be a good time to have all internationals played, whether it is Six Nations, incoming tours, Rugby Championship or RWC.

That leaves the rest of the year open for domestic competitions.

I would like to see a re working of the NH season. So it has the more pragmatic look of the SH season. An orderly progression of rugby rather than the shambles and mix match it currently is.

Club then HEC, club then AI's then club then HEC then club followed by final pool rounds of HEC then six nations. After that there is club final months and HEC and club knockout playoffs.

It is a season that makes little sense.

I agree Maes.

I cant think of any reason why we would not change it all around a bit.

Maes - the 6Ns needs to be played when we have nice weather to ensure the beer gardens are full, and that means it has to be played in Feb-Apr the only time we get to see nice weather for more that a week (going by the last two or three years)

More importantly would be getting the HEC over and done with before the six nations.

maestegmafia wrote:More importantly would be getting the HEC over and done with before the six nations.

Over and done with? Seems a bit rough considering a lot of folk prefer the HEC to the 6 Nations. There are certainly better matches for the most part. Maybe the 6 Nations should be moved instead?

It has its advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage of players going abroad is it means the regions squads won't be as strong. The advantage is it allows young players come through, giving them regular game time which fast tracks their development.

To be fair the majority of those leaving are either has-beens or never-weres. I don't mean that disrespcetful, but the likes of Day, Goode, M Thomas, Gardener, Griffiths and Riley are unlikely to ever be capped by Wales. Also players such as Byrne, Bennett, Brew, R Rees, S Jones, M Jones, TR Thomas and Yapp have are all played their last game for Wales (unless serious injuries kick in). Then the likes of Charteris, Hook, Phillips are all looking like they will be gone from the match day squad within a season or two.

So that leaves us with Gethin Jenkins, Paul James, and Craig Mitchell as players that are abroad and still wanted for good few years. However they are all props and playing in leagues where scrummaging and being part of a strong pack are considered highly important, and will most likely be gaining from their time overseas. Which leads me to think that the players who will either improve their international hopes (or not have any) more away, and the others stay.

There are always positives & negatives & spin.

I recall Nigel Davies calling for central contracts to stop the drain away from Wales & now he is at Glaws!

I suspect the Regions will struggle further in the HC but the national team won't which probably won't upset most Welsh fans.

The players going are generally well established internationals and some towards end of carear and I have no problem with that.

I would be more worried if the younger ones started jumping ship.

maestegmafia wrote:Yes they are. But we have had issues getting players released in England, less so in France

Same problems with France as with England.

Apart from potential release issues (that are not always the fault of the 'foreign' club who are only operating with set guidelines) I think having players experience a different set-up and rugby culture is very beneficial.

In Wales' case, both Stephen Jones and Gareth Thomas returned from stints in France as better players.

Similarly for England I hope that Cipriani and Haskell have benefitted from time Down Under.

Is this article from Gwlad? It looks familiar.

bedfordwelsh wrote:The players going are generally well established internationals and some towards end of carear and I have no problem with that.

I would be more worried if the younger ones started jumping ship.

I'm not saying there are a lot but I know Wasps have signed a young 21 year old Welsh u-20 prop from the Ospreys - Will Taylor. I can't see him getting a lot of first team action as we have 2 ahead of him at tight head.

BigTrev - the thing with that is would he have been seeing any action at the Ospreys? Maybe 2 years time he will be back, and with experience of a more pack orientated style.

Who would be ahead of him at the Ospreys? Mitchell and Griffiths have left. Jones is away at internationals a lot. I would have thought the Ospreys would have been a good place to develop (with A Jones). I don't know the squad anymore.

HammerofThunor wrote:Who would be ahead of him at the Ospreys? Mitchell and Griffiths have left. Jones is away at internationals a lot. I would have thought the Ospreys would have been a good place to develop (with A Jones). I don't know the squad anymore.

Adam Jones (1st choice)
Aaron Jarvis, Craig Cross, Jo Rees (think he is a tight head).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:BigTrev - the thing with that is would he have been seeing any action at the Ospreys? Maybe 2 years time he will be back, and with experience of a more pack orientated style.

Maybe he wouldn't have seen much action at Ospreys but he is a Welsh U-20 that has chosen to move to an English club.
I think he will have some better tutors in Dai Young and Trevor Woodman though.

I wouldn't necessarily describe Wasps currently as a 'pack orientated' side but I shall wait and see what this season brings.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:BigTrev - the thing with that is would he have been seeing any action at the Ospreys? Maybe 2 years time he will be back, and with experience of a more pack orientated style.

Maybe he wouldn't have seen much action at Ospreys but he is a Welsh U-20 that has chosen to move to an English club.
I think he will have some better tutors in Dai Young and Trevor Woodman though.

I wouldn't necessarily describe Wasps currently as a 'pack orientated' side but I shall wait and see what this season brings.

Surely if your a good young player and your not going to get a look in where you belong you look elsewhere, that does not stop you returning when your contract is up at your new club, and the Ospreys may require him then. Just look at Jon Spratt he did the same thing, he left the Ospreys when they had too many other centres in front of him and has now returned when he is in a possition to push for the shirt on a more consistant level.

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Yes they are. But we have had issues getting players released in England, less so in France

Same problems with France as with England.

Its a bit different. In England theres a blanket agreement through PRL making release impossible, in France it can be negotiated with the clubs, and players can get release written into their contracts.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:BigTrev - the thing with that is would he have been seeing any action at the Ospreys? Maybe 2 years time he will be back, and with experience of a more pack orientated style.

Maybe he wouldn't have seen much action at Ospreys but he is a Welsh U-20 that has chosen to move to an English club.
I think he will have some better tutors in Dai Young and Trevor Woodman though.

I wouldn't necessarily describe Wasps currently as a 'pack orientated' side but I shall wait and see what this season brings.

Surely if your a good young player and your not going to get a look in where you belong you look elsewhere, that does not stop you returning when your contract is up at your new club, and the Ospreys may require him then. Just look at Jon Spratt he did the same thing, he left the Ospreys when they had too many other centres in front of him and has now returned when he is in a possition to push for the shirt on a more consistant level.

I agree with some of that but my point is he won't get a look in at Wasps either (there are actually 3 not 2 ahead of him the same as Ospreys) & he is a young Welsh player with talent & chosen to leave the Ospreys.
Do you think this was a financial decision by Ospreys & or Will or the lure of the coaching?

Bedfordwelsh made comment on the players leaving are all beyond their prime but would be concerned if the youngsters started to go?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Yes they are. But we have had issues getting players released in England, less so in France

Same problems with France as with England.

Its a bit different. In England theres a blanket agreement through PRL making release impossible, in France it can be negotiated with the clubs, and players can get release written into their contracts.

They don't though. All of the Welsh players were only released for the international window (except one player who was released a day early and returned a day early because of midweek game). The French coaches have also expressed annoyance at having to release them for this (the extra 3 days of release time since 2008 or 09). But yes there is a slight difference.

There was 1 or 2 players released for the training camp before the 6Ns

I don't think there were. Remember the IRB changed the window to say players would be release 13 days before the first game for 3 days. Then go back to their for the weekend game and return the the international camp on the monday.

Articles like this one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/mobile/rugby-union/16427344

Cloud the issue by not keeping up to date with the new rules. I'll have a look for the link to the IRB regulations (I have posted it before for Maesteg but it seems he's forgot again).

They were released early for the summer tour but that's pretty common during the summer (every one except Wales got their players released early for the World Cup because the WRU refused to talk to the PRL)

9.13 on here covers it.

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/regulations/04/23/27/120531gfirbhandbook2012freg9eng.pdf

The assembly period is the week before the first game. They get an extra 3 days the week before (Monday - Wednesday) as long as those 3 days don't clash with a club game. I think it was Philips who was released on the Sunday for Wales and returned on the Tuesday to play on the Wednesday before the 6 nations.

Just to clarify a bit guys, what I meant is if the current crop of our International youngsters started going outside of Wales to ply their trade I would be worried

Smirnoffpriest wrote:There was 1 or 2 players released for the training camp before the 6Ns

All the French based players in the Welsh squad were released during the week for welsh training camps but had to return for games on the weekend.


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-in-wales/2012/01/06/french-go-ahead-for-lee-byrne-and-mike-phillips-91466-30068387/

Yh the French seem more negotiable and even when Alfie and Wellies were there they were released for 3 or the 4 AI games.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Yh the French seem more negotiable and even when Alfie and Wellies were there they were released for 3 or the 4 AI games.

Would it not have made sense to have a release clause written into the contract like Haskell had with Stad?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Yh the French seem more negotiable and even when Alfie and Wellies were there they were released for 3 or the 4 AI games.

To be fair the English clubs have been perfectly happy to release Welsh players too a number of times but the PRL step in and prevent it.

To be fair to the PRL they probably shouldn't let the clubs release the players. It's the WRU's fault for scheduling games outside of the IRB window.

gowales wrote:To be fair to the PRL they probably shouldn't let the clubs release the players. It's the WRU's fault for scheduling games outside of the IRB window.

Those games help fund Welsh rugby mate. Its all part of a business model to pay off the stadium, fund rugby in Wales and keep the game developing...

It won't change...

Nothing the WRU do will change!!

These games outside the window are a joke, they know it's going to create havoc, yet they know they can squeeze a few more pounds out of a public already being put through the ringer!!!

If I was involved with the PRL, or FFR I'd give the WRU the two fingers!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Nothing the WRU do will change!!

These games outside the window are a joke, they know it's going to create havoc, yet they know they can squeeze a few more pounds out of a public already being put through the ringer!!!

If I was involved with the PRL, or FFR I'd give the WRU the two fingers!

Tricky as the FFR don't run french club rugby the clubs do, and the PRL don't run English club rugby the RFU do. The FFR have no involvement whatsoever with foreign player release, the PRL have all the control.

It is amazing that the IRFU and SRU dont have to host four internationals in the Autumn to pay their bills.

You know what I meant MM, don't be pedantic!!

The IRFU, SRU, RFU and FFR all cover their over heads but they don't have the handicap of the numpties involved with the WRU that we do!!!

No one is being pedantic.

When we have more strength in the region over the next few years it will start to effect the regions HEC prospects less and less.

Last year was harder on the regions Welsh players because they had played a RWC, next year they wont, they will be more able to perform for the regions.

The WRU need to host four internationals in the autumn to earn enough money to keep the whole show moving along.

Or they couldve implimented a financially viable club game in the first place!!!

The regions welsh players werent the only players in europe to play in the WC!!

If the regions arent financially viable it puts pressure on the WRU, but bleeding every penny they possibly can out of the welsh public is not the answer. How about offering a club product that the public wants?!

The public (apparently) wants 12 (or 14) top class Welsh premiership clubs who only play each other but have all of the top Welsh internationals playing in that Premiership.

That would bankrupt the WRU and Welsh rugby faster and more surely than anything else (and historically won't attract any greater attendances than the current regional game)

Historically?! Hardly fair to use old amatuer numbers and compare them to where the sporting world is today!!!

I don't think the public want that at all, but they do want a club they can relate to, they want a club that is theirs and not an hours drive to a nearby city, but most importantly they want their club to be competitive!

There couldve been numerous ways to impliment this in Wales, which IMO is unlike any other infrastructure in world rugby.

I still think there will be a number of small tweaks in the coming years to the 'premiership' game and regions viability, but I can also see a huge overhaul coming, one that shouldve been implimented from the start.

The welsh public are very tribal, they need the best players from their towns to be playing for their towns, they need local rivalries.

IMO a 12 team premiership could easily be financially viable if you consider going regional come HC time only, and maybe a few west v east and region v region derbies thrown in for good measure!

It's what the people want, it's what the people can support and keeps us competitive in the HC, also making the regional games more prestigious and autmatically create more demand.

If we don't overhaul we will stay in a constant state of the WRU holding the game to ransom forever!

thebluesmancometh wrote:
The regions welsh players werent the only players in europe to play in the WC!!

No but the Welsh players played two more international matches than the English, French, Scots and Irish.

thebluesmancometh wrote:If the regions arent financially viable it puts pressure on the WRU, but bleeding every penny they possibly can out of the welsh public is not the answer. How about offering a club product that the public wants?!

The Regions are offering a product people want, look at the sales figures for pre season tickets already...!

thebluesmancometh wrote:It's what the people want, it's what the people can support and keeps us competitive in the HC, also making the regional games more prestigious and autmatically create more demand.

If we don't overhaul we will stay in a constant state of the WRU holding the game to ransom forever!

The WRU aren't holding anyone to ransom, they have debts, they need to make profit to pay for rugby in Wales, they have devised a business plan that is commercially viable and the banks agree to, so that they can repay their loans at an agreeable rate.

This business plan is rapidly reducing the WRU's debts meaning the banks wont hold the Welsh rugby loving public to account financially.

Secondly, what you say people want is not actually true, its what some of those disenfranchised by Regional rugby want.

We have a premiership, we have regions, why would not participating in the Rabbo league help the regions? It is an interesting thought. And certainly something I had thought about and discussed with mates a number of times... But I think the Rabbo serves a massive purpose for the Regions, the Italians, Irish and the Scots. It helps us blood players, build our depth.

We cant run academies at every club in Wales, we can run excellent academies at four regions though.

MM

So the Wales team played 2 more matches than France at the WC?

The season ticket sales are better, but it is still not a product the public want, or it would be far better again! Some fans have been worn down to comply with regionalism, but more importantly the younger fans know nothing of the old system so automatically want to watch the best we have.

Of course the WRU have debts, who in reality doesn't?

And it isn't just the certain few who wants the prem, Newport, Cardiff, Swansea, Neath, Llanelli fans have a large % who would all welcome a new prem style system (not that it's necesarily what I want)

Our premiership at present is a joke, 2nd rate, injured, or youth players competing in empty decayed semi stadiums at an amateur level. How will that spark any interest in the game at £10 a ticket when the local club is free (and largely better supported regularly)?

I totally agree that academies at every club cannot work, the 4 we have is ample, and possibly another 2 (North and Exile).

Suggestions are worthy of consideration mate.. Ill reply later, its time to nip to the pub for a saturday afternoon pint, or two maybe...!

Will catch you later for a chat im sure

thebluesmancometh wrote:Historically?! Hardly fair to use old amatuer numbers and compare them to where the sporting world is today!!!

I don't think the public want that at all, but they do want a club they can relate to, they want a club that is theirs and not an hours drive to a nearby city, but most importantly they want their club to be competitive!

There couldve been numerous ways to impliment this in Wales, which IMO is unlike any other infrastructure in world rugby.

I still think there will be a number of small tweaks in the coming years to the 'premiership' game and regions viability, but I can also see a huge overhaul coming, one that shouldve been implimented from the start.

The welsh public are very tribal, they need the best players from their towns to be playing for their towns, they need local rivalries.

IMO a 12 team premiership could easily be financially viable if you consider going regional come HC time only, and maybe a few west v east and region v region derbies thrown in for good measure!

It's what the people want, it's what the people can support and keeps us competitive in the HC, also making the regional games more prestigious and autmatically create more demand.

If we don't overhaul we will stay in a constant state of the WRU holding the game to ransom forever!

Bluesman you say that "I don't think the [Welsh] public want that [a 12/14 team Welsh professional premiership with top internationals] at all" but then go on to say that the Welsh public "wants a club that's theirs and don't want to travel an hour down the road to the city" and "they need to see the best players from their towns to be playing for their towns"

Correct me if I'm wrong but that sounds like a club set up, and clubs play in a premiership. You would need to have a Welsh Premiership (and Division 1) to fit in all the clubs from every town, city (and even village) that all these fans are from. And if every town had a club and the best players played for their home club (but the fans want their home town club to be competitive as well) then it would need a huge amount of money and players from every town to implement it.

This is the situation we had before regionalism when clubs were being driven into the red left right and centre (in the professional era I might add, hence why I brought up the comparison) - as the clubs (and WRU) couldn't afford the player wages, couldn't draw in the crowds and couldn't remain competitive as the small top class player base was spread too thin.

The only way to hold a top level 12 team prem is to have it on a semi professional level and then bring the 40 (or so) international class players together from across the whole 12 teams for around 3 times every year to compete against the best full time professional clubs/provinces in Europe.

It could well see hammering rather than improvements. (and make all the clubs less financially viable)