KP says he 'wants to commit to all forms of cricket for England'

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I presume he'll be 'rested' for the NZ tests or something

You can't compare KP with Cook, or any other modern player for that matter, because he is completely different to them. The term 'defining innings' is a little vague because they both play in different ways. Let's take two situations; The Oval in 05 and the Gabba in 2010. Both times we were trying to save games against the Aussies. In one KP took the attack to them and saved the game by blazing his way to an eye catching 158 and in the other Cook bored them into the ground by grinding his way to a considerably less elegant 234, but it was an equally effective innings. They go about things in different ways, so to compare them is tough. Their defining innings have come in different situations.

I do understand what Fists is saying, no-one but KP could have played the innings that got us the win in the Second Test in Sri Lanka or got us to the precipice of victory last week but it doesn't make him a better player. Could he have displayed Cook's powers of concentration to churn the Indian's into the ground for 294 runs, or batted for nigh on two days at the Gabba to save the game? Maybe not. And all this does strike me as a tiny bit irrelevant, as unless you're Bradman just being a good, potentially great player, doesn't give you the right to do what you want. He's been treated badly yes, but he has hardly been innocent in this whole affair and I think letting stew on his own for this last Test is the right decision and then I hope the ECB can sit down with him again, in a proper, mature manner and sort this whole thing out.

Fists of Fury wrote:Oh I'm not denying that, Pete. I'm a huge fan of flamboyant batsmen and I'll always tend to rate them higher than a solid if unspectacular batsman that churns out similar statistics. Such ratings are objective to a personal level, so I've no problem if others view it differently.

But, what I do believe, is that flamboyance is part of greatness. They do things that others simply cannot even dream of doing. Muhammad Ali - flamboyant, unrivalled in skill as a heavyweight boxer. Usain Bolt. Roger Federer. Diego Maradona. Each of those names have been capable of the extraordinary, and for me that has to rank higher than those that are simply capable of being consistent albeit in a more orthodox manner.

In 3 of those cases they had consistency too - Maradona being the odd one out. The all time greats are the guys who can play the right innings for the situation - knuckling down and defending when needed, blazing away at other times. Sobers could do both jobs with bat and ball which is why he's still my top all rounder.

VVS Laxman is an example of a guy who's played both types of knock, albeit nowhere near frequently enough to be an all time great. Warner scored a slow, grinding century against NZ on a seamer's paradise in Tasmania last year, which suggests he's not always a slogger - granted he has a ways to go before he's a great.

It's worth noting that in his whole career Bradman only ever hit 6s once he'd reached his century* - he regarded them as unneccesarily risky, and hit most of his boundaries along the ground.


*with 1 exception, during the Bodyline series when he tried a "hit out before getting out" approach for an innings

Good points made by all. Much of this is down to personal preference, admittedly. I just see those that do it, but do it in style, as superior. That's all really.

I need to shoot off to a quick meeting before 5 now, so cheers for the debate - good to chew the fat over a contentious issue where opinion is strong on both sides, as always!

Apologies for helping derail the true point of the thread, too!

Take it easy fellas.

Always up for a good debate

One thing we can all agree on, there is not better player around that can ignite these cricket boards like KP

eirebilly wrote:Always up for a good debate

One thing we can all agree on, there is not better player around that can ignite these cricket boards like KP

Im not sure thats a good thing. I cant stand the bloke personally and wont miss him. I had the misfortune of staying in the same hotel as him in LA in 2005 after the Ashes win, him and Simon Jones.
I witnessed first hand what an incredibly rude and arrogant tool the bloke was, what makes me laugh is in interviews he always makes out he is polite and has time for everyone when the complete opposite is the case.

Fair Dues Diggers, never met him personally so am in no position to judge him.

He does manage to kill alot of time for people at work though by getting the debates rolling

Would any other batsman have put England in a winning position like KP did last weekend? Same for the 2nd Test in Sri Lanka?

liverbnz wrote:Would any other batsman have put England in a winning position like KP did last weekend? Same for the 2nd Test in Sri Lanka?

No. It doesn't give him an excuse to get away with acting how he has done though.

liverbnz wrote:Would any other batsman have put England in a winning position like KP did last weekend? Same for the 2nd Test in Sri Lanka?

In a direct answer to this, no probably not. Only Prior has the ability to hit out like KP.

Thing is, how many times have we all put our hand on out head and say 'Oh KP why' when he gets out to a silly shot when he should be more responsible and then to hear 'Thats just the way i am'?

This is wehre personal opinion depicts who you see as World class or all time greats.

Kallis played many match defining innings for SA, but those that value stirke rate and the odd devastating innings higher than consistent batting will always value a Lara or Ponting above Kallis.

The reality is we remember the awesome knocks rather than the long slow grind.

Some of Kallis' match defining innings.

26 December 1997.
SA are in deep trouble against Australia and is set 380 to win, Only Hansie Cronje puts up any resistance Kallis bats for 6 hours to get his first century to draw the match.

There is his run of 5 test centuries in 5 consecutive tests in 2003/4

Then his tons in both innings against Pakistan in 2007 in Karachi, 155 and 100* again going on a run where he hit 5 centuries in 4 tests.

Then 2010/11

He hits a double ton in the first test against
india, then in the third test hit s a ton in each innings 161 and 109*

He has twice had a run of 7 tests where he scored at least a fifty, a run of nine tests where he scored at least a fifty, a run of 6 tests scoring at least a fifty.

He has been Mr Consistency for so long he bores people with the monotony that he scores runs.

A great in my book any day.

JDizzle wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Would any other batsman have put England in a winning position like KP did last weekend? Same for the 2nd Test in Sri Lanka?

No. It doesn't give him an excuse to get away with acting how he has done though.

Never said it did. Was just trying to add a little more weight to FoFs arguements on match-defining innings.

eirebilly wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Would any other batsman have put England in a winning position like KP did last weekend? Same for the 2nd Test in Sri Lanka?

In a direct answer to this, no probably not. Only Prior has the ability to hit out like KP.

Thing is, how many times have we all put our hand on out head and say 'Oh KP why' when he gets out to a silly shot when he should be more responsible and then to hear 'Thats just the way i am'?

Plenty of times I'm guessing but then every batsman gets out playing stupid shots. Bell's in the last Test was as ugly a shot as you'll ever see, Trott has been out wafting outside off' a few times in this series and the whole England team insisted on sweeping in UAE despite better judgement telling them not to.

I think expectations are always higher for KP and when he gets out playing a daft one we get more annoyed than we would if it was someone else.

liverbnz wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Would any other batsman have put England in a winning position like KP did last weekend? Same for the 2nd Test in Sri Lanka?

In a direct answer to this, no probably not. Only Prior has the ability to hit out like KP.

Thing is, how many times have we all put our hand on out head and say 'Oh KP why' when he gets out to a silly shot when he should be more responsible and then to hear 'Thats just the way i am'?

Plenty of times I'm guessing but then every batsman gets out playing stupid shots. Bell's in the last Test was as ugly a shot as you'll ever see, Trott has been out wafting outside off' a few times in this series and the whole England team insisted on sweeping in UAE despite better judgement telling them not to.

I think expectations are always higher for KP and when he gets out playing a daft one we get more annoyed than we would if it was someone else.

Just the same has batters like Trott, Cook and Bell also have incredible innings that set England into winning positions.

I do agree that the expectations are high for KP but i actually have higher expectations of Trott and Cook if i may be honest.

liverbnz wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Would any other batsman have put England in a winning position like KP did last weekend? Same for the 2nd Test in Sri Lanka?

No. It doesn't give him an excuse to get away with acting how he has done though.

Never said it did. Was just trying to add a little more weight to FoFs arguements on match-defining innings.

Fair enough, but like I mentioned earlier people will remember KP putting us in match winning positions more than Cook or Trott because of the way he plays and yes, he does have the ability to turn games around. But I am sure Cook and Trott have won just as many games by setting platforms in the first innings of games and winning them there.

[quote="liverbnz"]Would any other batsman have put England in a winning position like KP did last weekend? Same for the 2nd Test in Sri Lanka?[/quot

Has any other batsman with his talent given his wicket away needlessly quite often when a big score was needed ?

One thing that i think that we can all agree on - is that KP has been totally unprofessional.

A lot of you guys have been right about KP having done so much for England. A truly brilliant batsman, and he has played a huge part in getting England to No 1.

Unfortunately that does not make him bigger than the team. It pains me to say it but KP may well be one of the reasons why we get soundly beaten by the saffers in the final test. Anderson stating at the weekend that this saga is having an detrimental effect on the team. And he may have also over the last few months have played a big part in England losing that lofty status.

The "I want this" and "I don't want that", KP has obviously forgotten that the team should always come first philosphy and would do well to remember it.

This in my opinion has been coming for some while and is not soley bourne out of recent events and until KP realises that it is not about me,me,me then nothing will change.

skyeman wrote:
This in my opinion has been coming for some while and is not soley bourne out of recent events and until KP realises that it is not about me,me,me then nothing will change.

Hi Skye - slightly different background but I've just posted along similar lines on the other current Pietersen thread.

I think we'll have a long wait for realisation to come to Pietersen.

guildfordbat wrote:

skyeman wrote:
This in my opinion has been coming for some while and is not soley bourne out of recent events and until KP realises that it is not about me,me,me then nothing will change.

Hi Skye - slightly different background but I've just posted along similar lines on the other current Pietersen thread.

I think we'll have a long wait for realisation to come to Pietersen.

Hi Gb, just read it and agree.

The ego of KP is just too much and in his case has been a big flaw in his character. And unless he can change or manage it better, he will never imo be regarded in the top echelons of the game.

But i still want him back in the team

And i don't think he will want to stop until he is the first past that 22 mark - Ego again

eirebilly wrote:

liverbnz wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

liverbnz wrote:Would any other batsman have put England in a winning position like KP did last weekend? Same for the 2nd Test in Sri Lanka?

In a direct answer to this, no probably not. Only Prior has the ability to hit out like KP.

Thing is, how many times have we all put our hand on out head and say 'Oh KP why' when he gets out to a silly shot when he should be more responsible and then to hear 'Thats just the way i am'?

Plenty of times I'm guessing but then every batsman gets out plTaying stupid shots. Bell's in the last Test was as ugly a shot as you'll ever see, Trott has been out wafting outside off' a few times in this series and the whole England team insisted on sweeping in UAE despite better judgement telling them not to.

I think expectations are always higher for KP and when he gets out playing a daft one we get more annoyed than we would if it was someone else.

Just the same has batters like Trott, Cook and Bell also have incredible innings that set England into winning positions.

I do agree that the expectations are high for KP but i actually have higher expectations of Trott and Cook if i may be honest.

But that's kind of my point, they can all play match winning innings, all play daft shots but none of them other than KP can play that sort of innings he played last Saturday which swung a game in a matter of hours after the opposition get 400+ first up. If Cook or Trott had got 149 with KP out early, England would not have batted again on Monday. Same with the 2nd Test in SL. England likely would have ran out of overs and would now be staring a 3rd Test series defeat in 8 months straight in the face.

For me, that's what separates KP apart on the cricket field and I love watching Cook accumalate runs.

Fists of Fury wrote:Because Cook doesn't possess the ability of KP to force results, to turn games on their head etc.

You are right that KP is the best England player at changing a game. But setting up a game, and ensuring that a strong position becomes an unassailable one are equally important skills.

Fists of Fury wrote:Ok, let's take Jacques Kallis.

Kallis, for all his enormous qualities as a batsman, doesn't have anywhere near the defining innings of Kevin Pietersen. It is what holds JK back from being ranked alongside the likes of Lara and Ponting. Great batsmen win games for their countries almost single handedly and in a fashion that sets them apart.

That's the kind of thing I'm looking at here.

Your take on Kallis is a brave one, but I don't agree. He has played numerous exceptional and match-winning innings, particularly in the last few years when his game has become more adaptable.

Diggers wrote:I really dont think thats true at all personally. You dont define a batsman..or at least I dont...by the odd fantastic innings. Like I say Pietersen really hasnt made that many knocks in his career anyway, they are once in a blue moon scores. What matters over the course of a career is consistently helping your team to good totals, which Kallis has been amazingly good at his whole career.
I can remember KP throwing his wicket away stupidly when his team needed him far more times than I can remember him singhle handedly winning matches.
Kallis and Ponting are both all times great, KP is nowhere near that level IMO.

Now, that's simply wrong. He's played an awful lot of great innings right throughout his career.

Fists of Fury wrote:Oval, 2005 - 158 (you know all about that one)

I've always thought that that particular knock has been a tad over-rated. England were already in the lead when KP came in, and so it would have required a tremendous collapse for Australia to get anywhere close. My over-riding feelings on that day were that from about midday, England were always safe. Hence why KP was able to play so expressively rather than save a game by blocking. Strauss's first innings ton was just as, if not more significant, in ensuring that the match was drawn.

Stella wrote:The problem I have with Kallis is that for a long time, he was the saffa's best batsman but time and time again, he came to the crease with his team say, 150 for 2 and he just plodded on regardless. Now, I know Dravid is similar but that was his role in the team.

Kallis has the ability to wreak havoc but IMO played within himself to often

He did a few years ago, but has added another gear to his game in the last few years. In fact I'd sometimes accuse him of being too aggressive these days.

----

Moving back to the original debate, I can relate from experience at my club how difficult KP type characters can be to handle.

A few weeks ago the decision was made to end our second highest even runscorer, second highest ever wicket-taker, head coach and pioneer of our junior section's association with our club. On the face of it that might seem ridiculous. But, having spoken to people on the committee, he was simply taking up far too much of their time - he always jeopardised our relations with the ground that we hire, had a very poor disciplinary record, had been banned from our winter nets venue, could not be relied upon to turn up on time, wasn't popular with a number of 1st XI players and tended to ignore clear instructions. Therefore, after a lot of thinking, it would appear that the turning point had been reached.

The same can be said for KP. When somebody gives you the runaround that much there comes a turning point when whatever their virtues something has to change.

So Cook is the new Bradman of English cricket and Pietersen the one who would the all too rare flashy little knock that might turn a match situation in England's favor!!.
KP has played stupid shots all to regularly, he has thrown his wicket all too easily, there are at least 10000 better cricketers in the world.
While Alastair Cook has emerged as one of the better openers in the world today with potential for more high points in his career, I can remember many situations where he struggled against swing and got out early poking outside off. Cook is a fine player, who has put in real hard yards to turn himself around as an ODI player to the pleasant surprise of many cricket lovers including myself. But Pietersen for me is a player with the X factor about him. And who between Pietersen and Cook averages more and scored more hundreds? How many current England players have scored more 150+ scores in test cricket than Pietersen has done? Not bat for a flashy lad!.

msp83 wrote:Not bat for a flashy lad!.

Nice one. Might steal that for a headline at some point!

Shelsey93 wrote:

msp83 wrote:Not bat for a flashy lad!.

Nice one. Might steal that for a headline at some point!

Wrote it just like that, then remembered Fredye Flintoff saying something similar!. Think "Not bad for a fat lad".

With Cook going to score many, many more centuries for England than KP and with a hell of ab lot less problems - who would you rather have.

I'd have both, would never plump for an either/or choice, as they both are significant parts of a successful England side. What about KP vs Bairstow/Morgan/Bopara/.......???

msp83 wrote:I'd have both, would never plump for an either/or choice, as they both are significant parts of a successful England side. What about KP vs Bairstow/Morgan/Bopara/.......???

At this moment in time and with the problems KP brings, go with the younger player.

Better for the TEAM.

And we do not know just how many others in the England team think that KP is a plum for his actions?

They have more sense than to say - JUST YET.

Apart from Swanny

KP is NUTS

Anderson hinted at it with his comments on Sunday.

Look lets not kid ourselves here, this is just the latest in a string of incidents but we should not forget that a happy KP is one hell of a squad member. He trains more than anyone else and i have seen on so many occasions that he has tried to work with and encourage others while batting and fielding. In short, he can be an incredible motivator so lets not go down this road of him only playing for himself because i dont really buy it.

Its just a shame that both parties have acted like complete and utter numpties and pretty much burnt all bridges behind them.

I love KP, but what is going on. I loved the youtube when he said he wanted to commit to england. Then this. What is going on. Why is he sending texts.

The Sporting powers at be hate twitter- Well if he did use twitter in this case at least everyone would have known what he said!!

He was told the video was a direct violation of his contract and was asked not to do it.

The guy behind the KP parody account has been outed...and Tweets that were sent on the night of its creation show that this guy was at Stuart Broad's house at the time (a picture uploaded by Broad proves that).

Now, Broad may or may not have been involved with its creation, but it doesn't paint young Stuart in a very good light. It appears that KP's suspicions that a team mate was involved may just be true.

Poor form from all involved - there is nothing wrong with a parody, but it becomes rather more malicious if Pietersen's own team mate was behind its inception.

This has been blown way out of proprtion for me. Maybe I am a simpler mind than most, but surely the sensible solution would be 1) KP misses Lord's Test 2) KP publicly apologises 3) KP plays for England again in all formats immediately following the SA Test series.

We can only hope in such crazy times. The ECB have made the PCB look like shrewd businessmen with this whole episode.

What is going on...

Our silly cricketers!

Sigh.

Broad shouldn't have got involved, but if KP is going to kick off because one of teammates might've been involved in poking some fun at him then you'd say he does need to lighten up a bit.

I imagine the ECB will want a. to know the content of the texts, and b. a public apology.

From Supersport

But Moosajee played down the content of the texts and said the messages contained nothing more than "banter".

He also refuted suggestions Dale Steyn and AB de Villiers were the two South Africans Pietersen had texted.

"There has been untruthful allegations in the media implicating members of our squad in the current issue between Kevin Pietersen and the ECB," Moosajee said on Monday.

"We stand by the same stance we have taken since we heard the news about these allegations. Yes, text messages were sent but like we said before it was banter among teammates, which is perfectly acceptable.

"The ECB has not made a formal approach to myself or any member of the team to see the text messages, as currently reported in the media.

"Allegations that Dale Steyn and AB de Villiers were the recipients of the texts are unfounded. Until such time that the allegations are met with the correct facts and evidence, we shall not comment.

"The internal issue between Kevin Pietersen and the English cricket board has been publicised for weeks, even before we arrived in the UK, and we don't want to get ourselves involved in an issue that has nothing to do with us."

I agree GSC, I'd like to think that KP will make a public apology (I don't blame him if he doesn't - after all, where is the ECB public apology for leaking details of private and confidential talks?), but I fear that a KP apology is the only way he will play for England again.

He should probably just bite the bullet, and then when his career is over absolutely lay in to the likes of Hugh Morris etc in a book.

What a book that will be.

The male version of 'fifty shades of grey'

There will certainly be a few men getting shafted in that!

Now there are causes to believe that Stuart Broad has played a role in setting up that twitter account. Of course its a may or may not situation, but with KP suspecting the involvement of a teammate and all, it is likely that this would be true.
I would be very interested to see what the ECB would do about that? Would they ask Broad to clarify whether he played any role in the saga? Going by their treatment of KP, at least that would be in order.
But going by their standards, one for Pietersen and something else for Broad, this would just be passed off? Or will Broad be taken to the next planet and warned in private?

msp83 wrote:Now there are causes to believe that Stuart Broad has played a role in setting up that twitter account. Of course its a may or may not situation, but with KP suspecting the involvement of a teammate and all, it is likely that this would be true.
I would be very interested to see what the ECB would do about that? Would they ask Broad to clarify whether he played any role in the saga? Going by their treatment of KP, at least that would be in order.
But going by their standards, one for Pietersen and something else for Broad, this would just be passed off? Or will Broad be taken to the next planet and warned in private?

No indication that Broad was involved, but a distant friend of his was apparently responsible. It must be said that I find the Twitter saga to be very petty - spoof accounts have been set up for many public figures, and this particular one was quite simply a bit of a laugh rather than a malicious attempt to mock KP.

Shelsey, Broad was with the guy at the time of the accounts creation, I believe. Some nifty Twitter detectives worked that one out.

He may not have known about it, but I find that hard to believe if he was with him at the time.

It becomes malicious if a team mate is involved.

Should Broad be made to apologise to Pietersen?

I believe he should.

Fists of Fury wrote:Shelsey, Broad was with the guy at the time of the accounts creation, I believe. Some nifty Twitter detectives worked that one out.

He may not have known about it, but I find that hard to believe if he was with him at the time.

It becomes malicious if a team mate is involved.

Perhaps. Although I guess the evidence isn't anything more than circumstantial.

There is no way of proving that Broad did have any input I guess (as likely as it seems), so I think it would be a tad unfair to Broad to make him do so.

However, I'm sure if this was all reversed and Pietersen had been implicated with a parody account of Broad then he would be made to.

For all of his idiocy, the treatment of Pietersen in this saga has been nothing short of disgraceful. Leaking details of a private and confidential chat, only to then drop him for purposes of unity and trust and having the audacity to request a public apology. I'd be tempted to tell them to stick it, if I were him. I sincerely hope that isn't the case, though. The man has numerous English records to break and set before all is said and done. It'd be a travesty for the fans and for world cricket to lose him now.

malicious is something reserved for unproven aligations/actions of Kevin Pietersen, the others are gods in English cricket, the ECB, the coach, the captain, the players, the sports media.......

Shelsey93 wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Shelsey, Broad was with the guy at the time of the accounts creation, I believe. Some nifty Twitter detectives worked that one out.

He may not have known about it, but I find that hard to believe if he was with him at the time.

It becomes malicious if a team mate is involved.

Perhaps. Although I guess the evidence isn't anything more than circumstantial.

Precisely, and that is why no further action will be taken.

Pietersen is been dropped for contents of a text message he send to a friend, contents of which aren't available in the public domain. It is speculated that there are unflattering references about England's test captain, and without even formaly trying to find out what they are, the ECB has humiliated Pietersen.
But when it comes to Broad, its only speculation so it will be unfair to him.
Says it all.

Yeah, it is terribly one sided, MSP.

Alex Hales is another. He is a housemate of the guy that set it up, I believe, and he was the first to follow the parody account on Twitter. Coincidence? I think not.

msp83 wrote:Pietersen is been dropped for contents of a text message he send to a friend, contents of which aren't available in the public domain. It is speculated that there are unflattering references about England's test captain, and without even formaly trying to find out what they are, the ECB has humiliated Pietersen.
But when it comes to Broad, its only speculation so it will be unfair to him.
Says it all.