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The Player Watch Project

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HammerofThunor
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Pete C (Kiwireddevil)
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Post by Pot Hale Sat 01 Sep 2012, 6:21 pm

Folks


I was wondering if people might be interested in participating in a little project. Playing time and appearances for players and clubs is a hot topic at present in the context of the upcoming discussions around the next agreement for the European Cups in 2014/15. It's also useful to see how particular players are doing within your own teams that you support or in an international context within a particular season.

What I was looking to do from the start of this season is to compile the appearances and playing times across the 6 Nations if possible. I've started putting together data based on games played so far this weekend, but there's a lot of data to compile, and in some cases, not easily available. For example, some leagues give the times when a player was hooked during a game, others don't. Or rather, it's not compiled in one place. The Pro 12 lineups give players, and who was replaced, but not when. However, the match timeline does give them as long as you work through the full timeline. If the workload was to be split across a few people who were interested in the project, it would be possible. People take their own team, and one or two others, or whatever suits people's workloads.

That all assumes that people would be interested in taking part. If it was deemed worthwhile, then I've no problem if the output becomes a regular part of 606v2 or V2 (not sure what each bit means), and it would become a useful resource for people on here, and perhaps, as it developed over the season, for others to peruse the site as well, and build traffic.

The table below is merely an example. It could contain other headings e.g. LV Cup, B& I Cup, no of matches, etc. This could be a summary sheet, and a more detailed one kept off-line or on another site thingy (see how technically literate I am?) that has the individual totals of each round or match week. If people sent data in an agreed common format and layout, I'll happily assemble it.

Fee free to comment, pour scorn, wax lyrical, or simply emote.


SurnameFirst namePositionTeamCountryLeagueH CupC Cup Nov Int'l 6 Nations 'A' IntlsTotal time
O'Driscoll BrianCentre Leinster
Irl
23
80
0
56
75
0
234
Ashton ChrisWing Saracens
Eng
43
62
0
46
80
0
231
Roberts JamieCentre Cardiff
Wal
80
76
0
66
42
0
264
Grey RichieLock Sharks
Sco
80
80
0
52
80
0
292
Rougerie AurelienCentre Bourgogne
Fra
70
80
0
62
80
0
292
Parisse SergioNo 8 S Francais
Ita
60
0
70
52
80
0
262


Last edited by Pot Hale on Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by wales606 Sun 02 Sep 2012, 12:41 pm

ESPN Scrum match reports will have time on/off for subs for the English league, HC, internationals and Rabo (and I think LV)
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Post by Pot Hale Sun 02 Sep 2012, 12:47 pm

Interesting article in the Mail on Sunday with an interview with former Connacht/Leinster hooker, Bernard Jackman, now plying his trade as a full-time breakdown and defence coach at T14 side, Grenoble.

Some excerpts:

"Grenoble, newcomers to the Top 14 this season, rested seven players from the previous week's win at Bordeaux, but there were no recriminations after the inevitable 30-13 defeat.

The strategy in the lower half of the French league is for teams to prioritise matches they think they can win to avoid relegation instead of being as competitive as possible every weekend no matter the calibre of opposition....

It's a concept alien to Jackman.... But he'll get used to it if it means his team fronts up in the games that matter most...

'I don't find it easy to adapt to', he admitted. ' Even whenI was playing at Sale and Connacht, where we weren't realistically fighting to win trophies, we still always put our best foot forward every week. There wasn't as much of this targeting of games, but I understand it."

"We're competing with Agen, Mont-de-Marsan and Bordeaux effectively, and maybeperpignan might get dragged into it but I don't think they will. The realityis we will pick and choose games to target. It's just a different mindset.'

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Post by Pot Hale Sun 02 Sep 2012, 12:47 pm

wales606 wrote:ESPN Scrum match reports will have time on/off for subs for the English league, HC, internationals and Rabo (and I think LV)

Thanks.
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Post by Smirnoffpriest Sun 02 Sep 2012, 1:28 pm

Interesting read, cheers

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 03 Sep 2012, 1:03 am

Ok. Have completed all 552 players from the two leagues. T14 is for another day.

Now how do you create a link to this thing? Anyone technical?
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Post by Portnoy Mon 03 Sep 2012, 7:51 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Ok. Have completed all 552 players from the two leagues. T14 is for another day.

Now how do you create a link to this thing? Anyone technical?

I'm thinking that project would be huge PH. I've considered how it might be done.

1. A common data source would have to be agreed to gain consistency.
2. Each game would have to be assigned to a contributor. In normal Rabo/Jeff weeks that's twelve people. Plus International weeks when league games clash with internationals. And that includes Rabo/Jeff players playing for non-B&I teams?

That's a hell of a lot of commitment over the course of an entire season with limited benefit.

I considered using a screen-scraper to automate the process and load it into a database but that on the face of it looks fraught with difficulties and pitfalls - not to mention the writing time.

However, if you can get a band of (say 20) willing helpers, I'll join you.
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Post by Pot Hale Mon 03 Sep 2012, 8:08 pm

Well it took me about 6 hours to work through the various sources and decide on the best for copying names, positions and playing times.

One game, once you the know the fastest way to do it, takes ten minutes.

When you have most of the names in, it becomes easier. I've 552 in now out of the 23 man squads across 24 teams. Plus all their playing times.

But yeah, you're probably right. Too long a season.
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Post by Sin é Mon 03 Sep 2012, 9:14 pm

Have had a look at this website.

Details for Rougerie for last season. It seems to have all players. It covers all competitions as well.

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-zoom-442-top14-2011-starter.html
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Post by Pot Hale Mon 03 Sep 2012, 11:42 pm

Well - f*&k me pink!

You're right.

That ends that then. Cheers.
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Post by Mickado Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:08 am

Rugbydreamer met with the stats guys from espn scrum.com at the launch of the Pro12. Maybe you could give her a shout and contact the fellas to see if there's anything they could help you with.


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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:19 am

Well I certainly hope that the previous two posts are not intended to be associated in any way!

It may be a slow and slightly laborious process, but all the raw data that PH requires is there so far as I can see.

Sexton for instance 2011-12:
RWC 184 mins (2,3 games)
International Friendly 179 mins (2,23 games)
6Ns 388 mins (4,85 games)
International Tests 216 mins (2,7 games)
Rabo 526 mins (6.58 games)
HEC 599 mins (7.49 games)

25.68 games.

So he's technically a slacker Wink


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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:48 am

Richie McCaw 31.975 games

BOD 14.3 games.

I'm loving this...
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Post by Sin é Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:48 am

I've compared Toby Flood with Sexton.

Flood: 11/12 season. Leicester 19 games. England 10 games = 29. Total mins: 1727.
flood: 10/11 season. Leicester 16 games. England 9 games. = 1724 mins.

Sexton: 11/12 Leinster 16 games. Ireland 16 games = 34. Total mins: 2091.
Sexton: 10/11 Leinster 20 games. Ireland.8 games = 28. Total mins: 1922.

totals over 2 seasons 10/11 & 11/12.
Flood: 54 games. 3451 minutes.
Sexton: 62 games. 4013 mins.

I had a quick look at Rougerie as well - he hardly plays in the Top 14 - probably only home games.




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Post by Sin é Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:49 am

Portnoy wrote:Richie McCaw 31.975 games

BOD 14.3 games.

I'm loving this...

BOD was out for most of last season. Might be better to compare BOD with a centre as well (like rougerie or young Tualagi).
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Post by cp10 Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:03 am

Pot Hale wrote:

SurnameFirst namePositionTeamCountryLeagueH CupC Cup Nov Int'l 6 Nations 'A' IntlsTotal time
O'Driscoll BrianCentre Leinster
Irl
23
80
0
56
75
0
234
Ashton ChrisWing Saracens
Eng
43
62
0
46
80
0
231
Roberts JamieCentre Cardiff
Wal
80
76
0
66
42
0
264
Grey RichieLock Edinburgh
Sco
80
80
0
52
80
0
292
Rougerie AurelienCentre Toulouse
Fra
70
80
0
62
80
0
292
Parisse SergioNo 8 S Francais
Ita
60
0
70
52
80
0
262

Think you may need to revise your table. Richie Gray plays for Sale Sharks. If you're picking a player to monitor I would pick Ross Ford. Also, Rougerie plays for Clermont not Toulouse.


Last edited by cp10 on Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:04 am

Sin é wrote:
Portnoy wrote:Richie McCaw 31.975 games

BOD 14.3 games.

I'm loving this...

BOD was out for most of last season. Might be better to compare BOD with a centre as well (like rougerie or young Tualagi).

Okeydookey. Back in a mo...
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Post by red_stag Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:06 am

Sin é wrote:I've compared Toby Flood with Sexton.

Flood: 11/12 season. Leicester 19 games. England 10 games = 29. Total mins: 1727.
flood: 10/11 season. Leicester 16 games. England 9 games. = 1724 mins.

Sexton: 11/12 Leinster 16 games. Ireland 16 games = 34. Total mins: 2091.
Sexton: 10/11 Leinster 20 games. Ireland.8 games = 28. Total mins: 1922.

totals over 2 seasons 10/11 & 11/12.
Flood: 54 games. 3451 minutes.
Sexton: 62 games. 4013 mins.

I had a quick look at Rougerie as well - he hardly plays in the Top 14 - probably only home games.


Lets not have facts ruining a good myth Very Happy
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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:15 am

Aurélien 25.41 games
Manu 27.425 games
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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:48 am

Sin é wrote:
Portnoy wrote:Richie McCaw 31.975 games

BOD 14.3 games.

I'm loving this...

BOD was out for most of last season. Might be better to compare BOD with a centre as well (like rougerie or young Tualagi).

Fair point Sin.

Though I'll point out that a couple of months ago you tried to claim that the likes of McCaw were only playing 20-22 games a year. So (and I don't normally do this but I'm still laid up with whooping cough and feeling grumpy):
I told you so Wink

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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 12:04 pm

red_stag wrote:
Sin é wrote:I've compared Toby Flood with Sexton.

Flood: 11/12 season. Leicester 19 games. England 10 games = 29. Total mins: 1727.
flood: 10/11 season. Leicester 16 games. England 9 games. = 1724 mins.

Sexton: 11/12 Leinster 16 games. Ireland 16 games = 34. Total mins: 2091.
Sexton: 10/11 Leinster 20 games. Ireland.8 games = 28. Total mins: 1922.

totals over 2 seasons 10/11 & 11/12.
Flood: 54 games. 3451 minutes.
Sexton: 62 games. 4013 mins.

I had a quick look at Rougerie as well - he hardly plays in the Top 14 - probably only home games.


Lets not have facts ruining a good myth Very Happy

Neither should myth ruin good facts Staggy. Like Sin é the one above Flood v Sexton . Sexton is the anointed one for Ireland. The one and only contender.
Flood isn't - witness the international game time stats,

Sexton 2010-12 - 1440 mins off 21 selections (18 games)
Flood 2010-12 - 1003 mins off 19 selections (12.4 games)
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Post by Sin é Tue 04 Sep 2012, 12:20 pm

Portnoy - not true. Ronan O'Gara is still around (and started 5 world cup games).

O'Gara (international) 20-12 - 833 mins. 10.41 games.

The point is that if Sexton didn't have such heavy international commitments he would be back playing for Leinster (and not being rested, so being fresher as is claimed).
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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 12:48 pm

But O'Gara is the old king and has one true successor being phased in (and to my mind very well - especially his tactical kicking)

But I'm still at a quandary to understand why you wanted to compare Flood with Sexton when one is scrapping for a place and the other is apparently being eased in to the slot.
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Post by Sin é Tue 04 Sep 2012, 1:03 pm

Both are outhalfs for their clubs. The claim is made that the Irish internationals are more rested by their clubs - but the thing is that they should be as 'tired' as any premiership/top 14 player because they have a heavier workload (it would take more out of a player to play France than play Newcastle for instance). Most the games that the likes of Sexton/O'Gara play are the difficult/demanding games. While Sexton/O'Gara was playing against Wales/Scotland etc. Toby Flood was probably playing in the LV Cup.



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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 1:35 pm

Sin é wrote:Both are outhalfs for their clubs. The claim is made that the Irish internationals are more rested by their clubs - but the thing is that they should be as 'tired' as any premiership/top 14 player because they have a heavier workload (it would take more out of a player to play France than play Newcastle for instance). Most the games that the likes of Sexton/O'Gara play are the difficult/demanding games. While Sexton/O'Gara was playing against Wales/Scotland etc. Toby Flood was probably playing in the LV Cup.




Toby Flood was probably playing in the LV Cup. Possibly Sin. Possibly injured. Possibly just having a w@nk. The facts are out there - all you have to do is find them don't you think?

The claim is made that the Irish internationals are more rested by their clubs
The claim. I think, is made that the IRFU makes players unavailable for provincial rabo games. Do you need a ref for that (as I can provide it if you want)?
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Post by Sin é Tue 04 Sep 2012, 2:21 pm

[quote="Portnoy"]
Sin é wrote:Both are outhalfs for their clubs. The claim is made that the Irish internationals are more rested by their clubs - but the thing is that they should be as 'tired' as any premiership/top 14 player because they have a heavier workload (it would take more out of a player to play France than play Newcastle for instance). Most the games that the likes of Sexton/O'Gara play are the difficult/demanding games. While Sexton/O'Gara was playing against Wales/Scotland etc. Toby Flood was probably playing in the LV Cup.



Toby Flood was probably playing in the LV Cup. Possibly Sin. Possibly injured. Possibly just having a w@nk. The facts are out there - all you have to do is find them don't you think?

Toby's appearances in the LV Cup - all wins for Leicester.

21/10/11 - Leicester v Glucester (73 mins)
04/02/12 - Leicester v Newcastle (27 mins).
18/03/12 - Leicester v Northampton (16 mins).

The claim. I think, is made that the IRFU makes players unavailable for provincial rabo games. Do you need a ref for that (as I can provide it if you want)?

I don't dispute that the IRFU places restrictions on the playing time of some players. What I don't agree is that Irish players play significantly less than English or French players.

Ireland has few players to call upon internationally - thats why Sexton might play 18 games or Ireland in a world cup season - and hasn't got any advantage over other countries players because he doesn't play every Rabbo game.
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Post by Pot Hale Tue 04 Sep 2012, 2:55 pm

Well this is the kind of debate I thought would ensue with some facts to hand as opposed to guesstimates.

What's not there is the amount of time played by players at a particular point in the season which is what I thought would be of benefit to a number of people within rugby. How many miles on the clock so to speak.

You can work out each player one by one, but not at a glance.
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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 04 Sep 2012, 2:57 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Well this is the kind of debate I thought would ensue with some facts to hand as opposed to guesstimates.

Indeed. Facts are your friends Smile
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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 3:30 pm

All data can be diced and sliced, chopped, minced and reconstituted.

Problem is that too much availability to the mush residue of the processes allows greater manipulation for good or ill.

Just as a little knowledge is dangerous, so is too much over-chopped data.
Just watch/listen to politicians producing imaginary rabbits out of Harry Potter sorting hats.

I love stats but I'm very cautious of statisticians.
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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 04 Sep 2012, 3:43 pm

Portnoy wrote:All data can be diced and sliced, chopped, minced and reconstituted.

Problem is that too much availability to the mush residue of the processes allows greater manipulation for good or ill.

Just as a little knowledge is dangerous, so is too much over-chopped data.
Just watch/listen to politicians producing imaginary rabbits out of Harry Potter sorting hats.

I love stats but I'm very cautious of statisticians.

Ahem.

I am a professional statistician Portnoy Wink
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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 3:45 pm

Point proven then Pete Smile
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Post by LondonTiger Tue 04 Sep 2012, 5:33 pm

Sin é wrote:
Portnoy wrote:Richie McCaw 31.975 games

BOD 14.3 games.

I'm loving this...

BOD was out for most of last season. Might be better to compare BOD with a centre as well (like rougerie or young Tualagi).

And toby Flood has missed large chunks of both the last two seasons with injury - yet you want to compare Flood with Sexton in another post.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 04 Sep 2012, 6:08 pm

Well the thing to do is to look at two comparative club matches from a previous season. For example, the two teams who met in the finals of the leagues and the cups, and what playing time was built up by each of the participating players.

Or maybe the Leinster v Saints final two years ago. Everyone says that Saints were flogged from their long season. What advantage did Leinster have over them in that instance?
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Post by Sin é Tue 04 Sep 2012, 6:31 pm

I selected 2 years because I knew Toby had been injured. I presume he wasn't injured for the following seasons±

08/09 tigers 20 games (1515 mins). Inter. 8 (349) = (1864 mins) = 28 games = 23.3 games.
09/10 tigers 19 games (1285). 5 inter. (559) = 1844 = 24 games = 23 games.

Other outhalf (in clubs that end up in playoffs etc).

Nick Evans:
11/12: 27 games. 2037 mins. = 25.4 games (of 80 mins each).
10/11: 27 games 2043 mins = 25.5 games per season.

Brock James
11/12: 34 games. 1837 mins = 23 games per season.
10/11: 32 games. 2308 mins = 29 games per season.

10/11 & 11/12: Sexton: 62 games. 4013 mins. average at 25 games per season of 80 mins.



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Post by Sin é Tue 04 Sep 2012, 6:47 pm

Pot Hale wrote:Well the thing to do is to look at two comparative club matches from a previous season. For example, the two teams who met in the finals of the leagues and the cups, and what playing time was built up by each of the participating players.

Or maybe the Leinster v Saints final two years ago. Everyone says that Saints were flogged from their long season. What advantage did Leinster have over them in that instance?

Just checked out Stephen Myler (& a few others).

Myler = 25 games (of 80 mins each).
Wilson = 27 games (of 80mins each)
Heaslip = 24.2 games (of 80 mins each) - 8 of which were internationals.

Myler is the same as Sexton (though Sexton has a lot more intense games). Not a huge amount in it though.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 04 Sep 2012, 8:33 pm

Heaslip in O5 or 06 had an extraordinary amount of time on the clock if I recall correctly.

Other key points of comparison are in the week of the first H Cup pool rounds and the 4th - a time when some of the criticism is focussed on.

Other ones to look at are the game time for EPS players vs WRU players or SRU players.
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Post by HammerofThunor Tue 04 Sep 2012, 8:50 pm

But Myler has been switched with another fly half for last few seasons. Not because he's being rested and therefore weakening the team. It's because he's not that great and they generally have two fly halves that offer different things but at the same sort of level.

Isn't the claim that the Irish Provinces play weakened sides in the PRO12 where as the Jeff sides don't? So rotating Cole and Castro is not the same as rotating Evans for Clegg for example. There's no really point looking at this without including the amount of time players were injured for. Or who they were swapped with when resting...well maybe not "no point".

Certainly an interesting idea but the more you try and do it "properly" the more of a minefield it becomes. I am willing to do some number crunching if needed.

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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:01 pm

Problem with 'injuries' is that they are nigh-on impossible to calculate, Thunor.

For instance in HERSH's post about Leinster throwing the game Mikado said
No subs were made at half time but Boss did come off shortly after the start of the second half with a hyper-extended elbow, which may keep him on the injury list for some time. Strauss was the next one to come off, also injured.

Injured? taken off as a precaution? and for the next game dropped or rotated?

Pretty impossible to tell and tally, I'd say.
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Post by Pot Hale Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:04 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:But Myler has been switched with another fly half for last few seasons. Not because he's being rested and therefore weakening the team. It's because he's not that great and they generally have two fly halves that offer different things but at the same sort of level.

Isn't the claim that the Irish Provinces play weakened sides in the PRO12 where as the Jeff sides don't? So rotating Cole and Castro is not the same as rotating Evans for Clegg for example. There's no really point looking at this without including the amount of time players were injured for. Or who they were swapped with when resting...well maybe not "no point".

Certainly an interesting idea but the more you try and do it "properly" the more of a minefield it becomes. I am willing to do some number crunching if needed.

That's two recruits. Thank you.

I have about half of the French teams entered. However, I have to go back and get the last two weeks as well. The site mentioned above only gives one player at a time on screen, so may have to look at other ways of gathering data. But certainly useful for putting in historical totals for different comps. Will ponder a bit further. Injured time is easy enough to pick up on for key players - there's not that many.

The French teams comes into it too, as they make similar claims about resting and rotation.
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Post by HammerofThunor Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:10 pm

So are we supposed to doing something or are you getting a crew together first? Maybe put the names in the original and if assigned to particular clubs that could get added it too.

Portnoy, well that's the point isn't it? For example Flood missed a fair bit of the last couple of seasons. Does that mean he's been rested? I think a lot of coaches suggest players are injured when they're rested anyway so they can't be pulled up for playing weakened sides. I mean most players are carrying some form of injury for most of the season aren't they?

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Post by Sin é Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:11 pm

You just have to assume that all players are injured for a certain amount of time (so its a level playing field as such in that regard).

Anyway, I've been looking at at least 2 seasons and strangely enough, they all seem to have a certain amount of gametime that they all get. Really what is to be noted is that the impression is incorrect that Irish players play a lot less games than their English or French counterparts who are rested/injured/not involved. They may play a few games less, but they do play a lot more international games (more internationals per team) which would take a lot more out of the player (i.e., huge difference between playing New Zealand in comparison to Bath in the autumn internationals).

As well as that there is a lot of travel involved (and being away from home for weeks on end).
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Post by Sin é Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:16 pm

Why would anyone tell lies about whether a player is injured or not?

The French basically have two teams (one home and one away). Probably why they find it difficult to win away from home in the Heineken Cup - most of their big players rarely move out of their own stadium and they don't mind losing away from home.

Edit: Boss is definately injured and will be out for a couple of weeks. Not a good time for him to be injured (and he got injured against Clermont in the HCup semi final and has been out since).

Paul O'Connell has definately been playing when he is only half fit as has Keith Earls. If they are fit, they will play.

With regard to resting before big Hcup games. Leinster v Munster is usually the week before the HCup (helps to get the intensity up) and Munster v Leinster is just before the Hcup QFs usually.

No resting the week before big games.






Last edited by Sin é on Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Portnoy Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:17 pm

Not all injuries are even reported PH. It would be a nightmare to follow. You'd have to check websites and press and still some would slip through the net. Plus some of today's nobodies will be tomorrow's stars.

Don't go there!
Stick with what can be verified with a modicum of certainty and accuracy.
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Post by Pot Hale Tue 04 Sep 2012, 9:36 pm

Portnoy wrote:Not all injuries are even reported PH. It would be a nightmare to follow. You'd have to check websites and press and still some would slip through the net. Plus some of today's nobodies will be tomorrow's stars.

Don't go there!
Stick with what can be verified with a modicum of certainty and accuracy.

Gotcha.

I'm not sure how best to go about splitting the task to be honest. Since a team changes each week, you can't create linked spreadsheet to feed a master sheet. As a start you need the team name, the players and their time on pitch beside all 23. You still have to enter that manually though.

Main thing though is how do you put the database of names on line? I've created it in Excel but I don't know if that's a suitable format for transferring to HTML (if that's the right thing to say). Creating the table in the OP took far too long, but maybe there's an easier way to do that.
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Post by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 04 Sep 2012, 10:27 pm

However difficult it may be, without the raw data of injury (& disciplinary) enforced absences, there is little that can be concluded by analysis of game time alone. Pot Hale, you've clearly done a lot of good work, but I can't help you techy-wise.

Comparison of one player to another is invidious, but a valid trend might be established with a decent sample size of about 20 players. Ireland have a relatively settled team (injury permitting) whilst England has seen experimental selections in the last season, which will reduce the size of a sample of regular international players. It may be easier to focus on provincial/regonal/club teams.

Just to be invidious:

Ben Foden,. 11/12
AP, 13 games, 1040 mins
HC, 6 games, 473 mins
AW, 1 game, 80 mins
Int'l, 15 games, 1159 mins

Total, 35 games, 2752 mins, 34.4 games av

Ben Foden, 10/11
AP, 15 games, 1124 mins
HC, 8 games, 629 mins
Int'l, 9 games, 720 mins

Total, 32 games, 2473 mins, 30.9 games av

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Post by Feckless Rogue Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:28 pm

Looks like the myth about Irish players playing less is being busted.

Sin also raised another point I've never thought of. The top Irish players play the highest intensity matches. Going into a HC quarter final, a large number of the Leinster side would have come off 5 tough test matches in the 6 Nations. Is that an advantage or a disadvantage? It's certainly not rest anyway.

And Irish sides definitely do not rest their players the week before a HC match. In fact Leinster v Munster is one of the most physical fixtures in the European rugby calender. And they normally clash before a HC weekend with full strength teams.

Can we finally all admit that Munster and then Leinster have dominated the HC because they have been better than the opposition? I know it sounds crazy but it might be true!!
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Post by Pot Hale Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:37 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Looks like the myth about Irish players playing less is being busted.

Sin also raised another point I've never thought of. The top Irish players play the highest intensity matches. Going into a HC quarter final, a large number of the Leinster side would have come off 5 tough test matches in the 6 Nations. Is that an advantage or a disadvantage? It's certainly not rest anyway.

And Irish sides definitely do not rest their players the week before a HC match. In fact Leinster v Munster is one of the most physical fixtures in the European rugby calender. And they normally clash before a HC weekend with full strength teams.

Can we finally all admit that Munster and then Leinster have dominated the HC because they have been better than the opposition? I know it sounds crazy but it might be true!!

Jumping the gun, Feckless, jumping the gun.....

There's a number of factors to consider. Players rest time. When they are rested is just as important as how much rest they get. Overall playing time within a season is telling as you get to the business end of the season e.g. Northampton in 2010.

One could argue that some players are underused and others are overused.

Intensity is another measure albeit one more difficult to define. A pool match in the H Cup when you've already qualified - or not - could be far less intense than a key relegation or top 4 battle league match. An easier one might be when Ireland are fielding an Ireland XV against Fiji in November whilst their neighbours are playing in full battle dress againat NZ or SA.
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Post by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:38 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Looks like the myth about Irish players playing less is being busted.

Sin also raised another point I've never thought of. The top Irish players play the highest intensity matches. Going into a HC quarter final, a large number of the Leinster side would have come off 5 tough test matches in the 6 Nations. Is that an advantage or a disadvantage? It's certainly not rest anyway.

And Irish sides definitely do not rest their players the week before a HC match. In fact Leinster v Munster is one of the most physical fixtures in the European rugby calender. And they normally clash before a HC weekend with full strength teams.

Can we finally all admit that Munster and then Leinster have dominated the HC because they have been better than the opposition? I know it sounds crazy but it might be true!!

That'll be 5 matches with a 2 week prep ( or is it 3?) and 2 rest weekends, so 5 games in 9 weeks. How much different is that from other teams?

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 04 Sep 2012, 11:40 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:Looks like the myth about Irish players playing less is being busted.

Sin also raised another point I've never thought of. The top Irish players play the highest intensity matches. Going into a HC quarter final, a large number of the Leinster side would have come off 5 tough test matches in the 6 Nations. Is that an advantage or a disadvantage? It's certainly not rest anyway.

And Irish sides definitely do not rest their players the week before a HC match. In fact Leinster v Munster is one of the most physical fixtures in the European rugby calender. And they normally clash before a HC weekend with full strength teams.

Can we finally all admit that Munster and then Leinster have dominated the HC because they have been better than the opposition? I know it sounds crazy but it might be true!!


That'll be 5 matches with a 2 week prep ( or is it 3?) and 2 rest weekends, so 5 games in 9 weeks. How much different is that from other teams?
If he was referring to last year, then I think Irleand had four games consecutively because of the Paris freeze.
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Post by Mickado Wed 05 Sep 2012, 8:38 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Portnoy wrote:Not all injuries are even reported PH. It would be a nightmare to follow. You'd have to check websites and press and still some would slip through the net. Plus some of today's nobodies will be tomorrow's stars.

Don't go there!
Stick with what can be verified with a modicum of certainty and accuracy.

Gotcha.

I'm not sure how best to go about splitting the task to be honest. Since a team changes each week, you can't create linked spreadsheet to feed a master sheet. As a start you need the team name, the players and their time on pitch beside all 23. You still have to enter that manually though.

Main thing though is how do you put the database of names on line? I've created it in Excel but I don't know if that's a suitable format for transferring to HTML (if that's the right thing to say). Creating the table in the OP took far too long, but maybe there's an easier way to do that.

It's straight forward enough to set up an excel sheet to create a mirror of a table of data that can be easily transfered on here. Send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you how I do it.

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