England's attacking options

I expect England to develop a back which can compete with anyone over the next two years. The backs who've been involved recently have plenty of talent (JJ, Tuilagi, Ashton, Goode, Foden, Brown, Flood, Youngs, Care etc), but in two year's time we will also be able to choose from:

Ford, Burns, Twelvetrees, May, Sharples, Watson, Yarde, Wade, Daly, Chisholm and Eastmond.

What could Wayne Smith have done with that lot?

DaveM wrote:What could Wayne Smith have done with that lot?

Quite a lot I guess - but as he was not interested in joining no point thinking about it.

So, the question is - What can Mike Catt do with that lot?

Am I right in thinking -
Lancaster is Head Coach
Rowntree is Forwards
Farrell is Defense
Catt is Backs/Attack

There wasnt a huge ammount of attacking endeavour on the SA tour - however, benefit of the doubt - Catt didnt have a lot of time to put structures in place.

DaveM wrote:I expect England to develop a back which can compete with anyone over the next two years. The backs who've been involved recently have plenty of talent (JJ, Tuilagi, Ashton, Goode, Foden, Brown, Flood, Youngs, Care etc), but in two year's time we will also be able to choose from:

Ford, Burns, Twelvetrees, May, Sharples, Watson, Yarde, Wade, Daly, Chisholm and Eastmond.

What could Wayne Smith have done with that lot?

Add Miller from Sale too

We need to get the right balance of pace skill and power.

I dont want us putting out backline where they are all creative and fast...but 8 stone wet through.

Creative players like Ford, Wade, JJ, Trinder etc...need to be balanced with players like Monye, Tuilagi, Benjamin, Barritt, Fitzpatrick (see what i did there ) etc...

We really should be able to put out a very good backline soon...and pack to go with it,

Exactly, look as Oz in the Championship. They've really struggled as for all their talent in the backs they don't have a single ball carrier to straighten the line.

Smith would have been amazing but sadly it was not meant to be. Now we'll have to back Catt and hope he can rise to the challenge ( I don't think he will )

Something like - maybe not exactly...

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Monye
12 Allen
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton / Wade
15 Foden

Creative and pacy...with Monye (or Benjamin) and Tuilagi giving that size and power to offer the crash ball if needed.

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Foden
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Brown

21. Care
22. Burns
23. May

DaveM wrote:I expect England to develop a back which can compete with anyone over the next two years. The backs who've been involved recently have plenty of talent (JJ, Tuilagi, Ashton, Goode, Foden, Brown, Flood, Youngs, Care etc), but in two year's time we will also be able to choose from:

Ford, Burns, Twelvetrees, May, Sharples, Watson, Yarde, Wade, Daly, Chisholm and Eastmond.

What could Wayne Smith have done with that lot?

Well if anything to go by the All Blacks, then he would have played them each out of position until they were completely confused, and then resolve to insist on an impossibly flat set piece alignment giving none any space to operate. Each would then be dropped in favour of Toeava whenever he wasn't injured.

Right look selection is not that difficult.

Selection is easy.

I am sick to death of the selection dithering by successive coaches and i am bemused by the scale and repetition of debates that go on here.

When it comes to backs you just know if they're good enough straight away and if you dont then you arent worth your corn as an international coach.

Players dont need 8 tests to prove their worth. They should start delivering the good in their first 2-3 tests. If they dont you know you've got it wrong.

Some starts by genuine articles as opposed to fakes...........

Clyde Rathbone made his debut for the Wallabies against Scotland in 2004, then scored a hatrick the following weekend against England.

James O'Connor made his 2008, during his Australian debut,[10] O'Connor scored three tries and helped Australia beat Italy 31–8

In February 2000, Ben Cohen made his England debut against Ireland in the inaugural Six Nations Championship, scoring two tries

Further to this.

There seem to be an English penchant for recycling sh*te players based on what? Rubbish club form in a rubbis club comp?.........

Geraghty's name gets bandied about along with Cipriani, Barclay and Hodgson in and out again, Monye, Anthony Allen, Tait

The list goes on!

None of them cut the mustard. Never did never will.

Why not just play this backline? Only players from two team's needed. Throwing in a token player from another club would just mess things up.


9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Monye
12.Allen
13.Tuilagi
14.Benjamin
15.Brown


21.Care
22.Ford
23.Lowe/Tait

beshocked wrote:Why not just play this backline? Only players from two team's needed. Throwing in a token player from another club would just mess things up.


9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Monye
12.Allen
13.Tuilagi
14.Benjamin
15.Brown


21.Care
22.Ford
23.Lowe/Tait

Oh yes and then in addition to being "world class wasters of talent" Graham Henry

and being "completely fecking useless clueless moronic selectors" Triangulation

we have the my club is better than your club overlay just to really muddy the already sh*te brown waters some more.

Hallelujah and love live English rugby mid table mediocrity!

Triangulation wrote:Further to this.

There seem to be an English penchant for recycling sh*te players based on what? Rubbish club form in a rubbis club comp?.........

Geraghty's name gets bandied about along with Cipriani, Barclay and Hodgson in and out again, Monye, Anthony Allen, Tait

The list goes on!

None of them cut the mustard. Never did never will.

Monye is a British Lion, and can cut the mustard if used well. It was our utter incompetence at back play that made him play poorly, and the bizarre run where he played fullback because someone was obviously drunk when they were writing the team sheet and Quins got "convinced" to play him there too.

Allen never got a chance to cut the mustard. And players do develop. And Geraghty, despite being poor at times for his Clubs, has only ever played well in a n England shirt from what I recall. And Barkley and Hodgson, whilst maybe not cutting the mustard, were picked on good Club form, and we can only really pick on club form from our "rubbish club compo", as that's the competition we play in

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Triangulation wrote:Further to this.

There seem to be an English penchant for recycling sh*te players based on what? Rubbish club form in a rubbis club comp?.........

Geraghty's name gets bandied about along with Cipriani, Barclay and Hodgson in and out again, Monye, Anthony Allen, Tait

The list goes on!

None of them cut the mustard. Never did never will.

Monye is a British Lion, and can cut the mustard if used well. It was our utter incompetence at back play that made him play poorly, and the bizarre run where he played fullback because someone was obviously drunk when they were writing the team sheet and Quins got "convinced" to play him there too.

Allen never got a chance to cut the mustard. And players do develop. And Geraghty, despite being poor at times for his Clubs, has only ever played well in a n England shirt from what I recall. And Barkley and Hodgson, whilst maybe not cutting the mustard, were picked on good Club form, and we can only really pick on club form from our "rubbish club compo", as that's the competition we play in

Yes yes all very plausible until you have a think about oooh let's say 3 quarters of the current australian back line. They can all interchange positions. And still perform brilliantly. That is real class. Monye is supposed to be a wing and cannot even carry the ball in his outside arm when going for the corner for fecks sakes! Dont they teach that in U9s?

Face it were kaka in the backs always have been always will be. We even turn someone like Tuilagi who should by rights be a rugby god into a kaka one dimensional player.

No. Forget about it.

We should go back to caveman rugby.

We should reconstruct a monster forward pack with a nippy 9, 3 fullbacks and Farrell at 10.

True to our heritage that way and well win more than we lose.

Triangulation wrote:Right look selection is not that difficult.

Selection is easy.

I am sick to death of the selection dithering by successive coaches and i am bemused by the scale and repetition of debates that go on here.

When it comes to backs you just know if they're good enough straight away and if you dont then you arent worth your corn as an international coach.

Players dont need 8 tests to prove their worth. They should start delivering the good in their first 2-3 tests. If they dont you know you've got it wrong.

Some starts by genuine articles as opposed to fakes...........

Clyde Rathbone made his debut for the Wallabies against Scotland in 2004, then scored a hatrick the following weekend against England.

James O'Connor made his 2008, during his Australian debut,[10] O'Connor scored three tries and helped Australia beat Italy 31–8

In February 2000, Ben Cohen made his England debut against Ireland in the inaugural Six Nations Championship, scoring two tries

Though this is a good point- players that come in later/ don't debut well and then do well later on are the exception rather than the rule. The trouble is, unless you are coming into a strong foundation, you are unlikely to do well. Credit has to go to Ruddock and Gatland for getting Wales so good from a poor start! A player, no matter how talented, coming into an unstructured or struggling team is going to struggle. So until we can get some kind of base in which to introduce our youth, we can't do what NZ did with Carter, Nonu and McCaw or Aus did with JOC (also, starting these players is done generally against weaker countries- a hat-trick against Italy for example, or New Zealand against any other country especially non-Tri-Nations ones - we don't play these countries that often)

Triangulation wrote:Right look selection is not that difficult.

Selection is easy.

I am sick to death of the selection dithering by successive coaches and i am bemused by the scale and repetition of debates that go on here.

When it comes to backs you just know if they're good enough straight away and if you dont then you arent worth your corn as an international coach.

Players dont need 8 tests to prove their worth. They should start delivering the good in their first 2-3 tests. If they dont you know you've got it wrong.

Some starts by genuine articles as opposed to fakes...........

Clyde Rathbone made his debut for the Wallabies against Scotland in 2004, then scored a hatrick the following weekend against England.

James O'Connor made his 2008, during his Australian debut,[10] O'Connor scored three tries and helped Australia beat Italy 31–8

In February 2000, Ben Cohen made his England debut against Ireland in the inaugural Six Nations Championship, scoring two tries

Oh well that's that then, sack the current England coaching setup, Sounds like Triangulation can do it single handedly!

England's problem is options....there are just too many of them and few stand outs except perhaps Flood and Manu and Foden...oh and does anyone remember the wunderkind Farrell?!!

Triangulation,

The current Australian lineup can interchange positions and play equally ineffectively atm.

To say you can tell whether a player is good enough at 18 is ridiculous. Some players look superstars and nnever develop, others take longer. Some come in, go away and come back stronger.

Of you 3 examples:

Ben Cohen came into a very strong England line-up. Lots of players looked good there.
Rathbone did not have a stellar career - injuries in part to blame.
JOC looks quality - but whether he has a long term career only injuries will tell.

3 of my own:
Ma'a Nonu appeared in the 2003 RWC but was then discarded for a while. I think he even spent much of the 2005 Super 12 season on the wing. He developed and came back a much better player.

Frank Bunce - one of my favourite players of all time was 30 when he first played for NZ

Zac Guidford - 3 years ago he was going to be the next superstar, exploding onto the scene. Things have since gone a little awry - but he may well be back.

Players develop at different rates.

LondonTiger wrote:Triangulation,

The current Australian lineup can interchange positions and play equally ineffectively atm.

To say you can tell whether a player is good enough at 18 is ridiculous. Some players look superstars and nnever develop, others take longer. Some come in, go away and come back stronger.

Of you 3 examples:

Ben Cohen came into a very strong England line-up. Lots of players looked good there.
Rathbone did not have a stellar career - injuries in part to blame.
JOC looks quality - but whether he has a long term career only injuries will tell.

3 of my own:
Ma'a Nonu appeared in the 2003 RWC but was then discarded for a while. I think he even spent much of the 2005 Super 12 season on the wing. He developed and came back a much better player.

Frank Bunce - one of my favourite players of all time was 30 when he first played for NZ

Zac Guidford - 3 years ago he was going to be the next superstar, exploding onto the scene. Things have since gone a little awry - but he may well be back.

Players develop at different rates.

I agree with you completely but this aint a good example...how long did he play for Samoa before switching to NZ...

4 matches only, when he was 29, in the 91 RWC.

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/player/11079.html

Ah ok...

So, let's assume a few players kick on, in two year's time how about:

Youngs
Ford
Benjamin,
Eastmond (total wildcard, but I just fancy he might be able to play 12)
Tuilagi
Ashton
May

Plenty of pace, and good physicality. Or

Care
Burns
Foden
Twelvetrees
JJ
Wade
Goode

I think I could do another selection or two. Certainly strength in depth won't be a problem.

Or lacking a little physicality you could have:

9 Care
10 Joel Hodgson
11 Wade
12 Waldouck
13 Lowe
14 May
15 Goode

Basically there are many options, we've just got to find the right combos. Ghats why I like Club combos on the whole

England's backs will be expected to play in a different manner than at their clubs, so I'm not sure the club combo thing matters much, but if you want to go down that route then I'd have thought a Gloucester - Tigers combo is the way to go.

LondonTiger wrote:Triangulation,

The current Australian lineup can interchange positions and play equally ineffectively atm.

To say you can tell whether a player is good enough at 18 is ridiculous. Some players look superstars and nnever develop, others take longer. Some come in, go away and come back stronger.

Of you 3 examples:

Ben Cohen came into a very strong England line-up. Lots of players looked good there.
Rathbone did not have a stellar career - injuries in part to blame.
JOC looks quality - but whether he has a long term career only injuries will tell.

3 of my own:
Ma'a Nonu appeared in the 2003 RWC but was then discarded for a while. I think he even spent much of the 2005 Super 12 season on the wing. He developed and came back a much better player.

Frank Bunce - one of my favourite players of all time was 30 when he first played for NZ

Zac Guidford - 3 years ago he was going to be the next superstar, exploding onto the scene. Things have since gone a little awry - but he may well be back.

Players develop at different rates.

London Tiger

JOC, AAC, Digby Ioane, Kurtley Beale (fitness issues) these guys can play across a backline and perform. Why the hell shouldnt Monye not be able to play fullback when his normal position is wing?

To all those making excuses for substandard players - please for the love of all that is good in the world just stop!!

LT, you haven't really countered my examples. Those 3 players i named are class head to toe and would be regardless of what side they played for. Cohen was not "made to look good" by being in a good side. Sure it helps but for goodness sakes!

I never said anything about pikcing 18 year olds.

Players may develop at different rates fine but my point stands it is easy to spot class players who are good enough and equally players who are not good enough. If they are still developing then they should not be in the national side.

If coaches make a mistake by picking a player slightly too early as you seem to be saying with Nonu, then drop them and recall them later that is ok. BUT Nonu was ALWAYS going to get there. The England recyclables were not. Never were.

Tri,

A lot of the reason that players in Australia can interchange is that they play all through the back line as kids. We tend to pigeon hole players very early.

Now Monye is in some ways a limited player, but with his pace, strength and running lines I reckon he would have scored as many tries in thw England Team of 2000-2003 as Cohen did. Cohen was a very good player - but was unable to play multiple positions.

I also disagree with you when discussing Matt Tait. He was definitely brought into the England team too early (bad coaching) but by the 2007 RWC final he had developed into a very fine FB who could also play OC. then injuries struck. He has the ability and has not been tried and failed.