Shane Williams for the Lions?

Anyone think that the publicity loving Shane Williams will make himself available for one last Lions tour now that Gats has been appointed as coach? Always room for one more swan song with Williams!

Would be a better selection than Wilkinson

Shane will tour; he remains the most unique winger in the NH and if one man can change a game or find a gap its him.

No thanks...just like its no thanks to Johnny.

Time to move forward. We have lots of real quality wingers in the isles.

And if you want a Shane type player...Cristian Wade will definately travel.

No Chance, he is too old now..... Let the man put his feet up.

If you're going to take Wilkinson, O'Driscoll and O'Connell, may as well take Shane too.

Assuming Sanatogen for Seniors isn't on the IRB banned substance list.

Can't see Mr Gatland being able to justify a scouting trip to Japan. Does second division Japanese rugby get much coverage?

I don't think either Williams or Wilkinson will go. What's Phil Vickery doing? He must still be going strong?

i bet 10 quid shane goes

I'd take that bet.... Wouldn't get a sniff at the test team so why go?

Why? Plenty of good wingers to chose from. One of the positions where the lions have plenty of strength in depth. North, visser, cuthbert, Ashton, etc etc

20 quid shane goes

He's never played well for the Lions and there are much better options.

On form he should not have toured Last time. Next year, there is more chance of me getting called up !

gowales wrote:He's never played well for the Lions and there are much better options.

I don't think he should go this time, but I don't agree with you gowales. He played very well in the 3rd test in SA in 2009. He only started in the final test and scored two and created one for Moyne with a cracking offload.

In '05 he didn't do well in the tests, but the no-one did really apart from a few (Ryan Jones as a fly in replacement springs to mind). However, he did score 5 trys in one midweek match which is not to be sniffed at.

Anyway, he's over the hill now for me so that's the reason he shouldn't go. And he's been out of top flight rubgy for a season. And, he went off the boil a while back (although showed his class against Leinster in the Rabo League final!)

GeordieFalcon wrote:No thanks...just like its no thanks to Johnny.

Time to move forward. We have lots of real quality wingers in the isles.

And if you want a Shane type player...Cristian Wade will definately travel.

Agree with this. With the likes of Ashton,Bowe,North and Cuthbert Ickle Shane isn't needed.

Don't agree that Wade will definitely travel, he might but he would be a bolter.

Not sure where all the Visser hype comes from either. He's only had 2 Scottish caps.

Griff wrote:

gowales wrote:He's never played well for the Lions and there are much better options.

I don't think he should go this time, but I don't agree with you gowales. He played very well in the 3rd test in SA in 2009. He only started in the final test and scored two and created one for Moyne with a cracking offload.

In '05 he didn't do well in the tests, but the no-one did really apart from a few (Ryan Jones as a fly in replacement springs to mind). However, he did score 5 trys in one midweek match which is not to be sniffed at.

Anyway, he's over the hill now for me so that's the reason he shouldn't go. And he's been out of top flight rubgy for a season. And, he went off the boil a while back (although showed his class against Leinster in the Rabo League final!)

That was a dead rubber test against an under strength Bok team.

He was pretty underwhelming in the mid week matches (2009) from what i remember as well, overall very disappointing i excepted much more from him.

Question, how many wings in the home nations are better than him?

North, Cuthbert, MacVisser......

Surely there are more than enough wings.

The thing that i would say is that Shane has had a knack of playing very well against Australia.
Scoring last minute tries and having a creative influence around the park.

I always felt the SANZAR nation he played best against was Australia

beshocked wrote:

Not sure where all the Visser hype comes from either. He's only had 2 Scottish caps.

top player in the rabo 3 seasons running, 3 hat tricks in 3 years. voted top player in the league. Top try scorer 3 years running. While he is yet to be really proven as an international layer he really is very good indeed - outplayed by Cuthbert this season but made George North look very ordinary last year.

Its a very unusual position that he is in - and this is the year we will really see how good he is. But to be voted by your peers the best player in the league shows something. Anyone who has actually seen him play knows how good he is.

and remeber - this is in a team that loses more than it wins!

TJ wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Not sure where all the Visser hype comes from either. He's only had 2 Scottish caps.

top player in the rabo 3 seasons running, 3 hat tricks in 3 years. voted top player in the league. Top try scorer 3 years running. While he is yet to be really proven as an international layer he really is very good indeed - outplayed by Cuthbert this season but made George North look very ordinary last year.

Its a very unusual position that he is in - and this is the year we will really see how good he is. But to be voted by your peers the best player in the league shows something. Anyone who has actually seen him play knows how good he is.

and remeber - this is in a team that loses more than it wins!

Fair enough but he's only got 2 caps for Scotland yet he's a shoo in? He might be good in the Pro12 but internationals are a step up.

He might well be there but I wouldn't put him ahead of the likes of North,Ashton,Cuthbert and Bowe before he proves he can cut it at international level.


Gowales Ashton plays well against the Aussies too.

Only 2 caps 'cos that is all he has been eligible for. Because of this he is only an outside chance for a lions berth especially as there are plenty of good wingers. Next year I think he would be a certainlty but lets see how he does in the 6N

for example - and plenty more on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLaWLyOY5JI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIJfiXefLaI

edit - and he is much much better than Ashton - not as one dimensional.

Casartelli wrote:If you're going to take Wilkinson, O'Driscoll and O'Connell, may as well take Shane too.

Assuming Sanatogen for Seniors isn't on the IRB banned substance list.

Definitely my Quote of the Day...........even though it was yesterday. If I find a better quote today, I'll demote this to its proper Yesterday's Quote of the Day

TJ Funniest thing I have heard. Ashton is not one dimensional just because has different skills.

He's brilliant at tracking the ball and a really hard worker. It takes vision to be in the right place at the right time.

It seems from the highlights that Visser is better at beating the men with sidesteps and hand offs but Ashton is better at support play and relies on his outright pace more.

Both are good players. Ashton has more international experience. Particularly scoring vs the Aussies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JfMXncKDqA

TJ wrote:Only 2 caps 'cos that is all he has been eligible for. Because of this he is only an outside chance for a lions berth especially as there are plenty of good wingers. Next year I think he would be a certainlty but lets see how he does in the 6N

for example - and plenty more on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLaWLyOY5JI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIJfiXefLaI

edit - and he is much much better than Ashton - not as one dimensional.

Sorry TJ but i dont agree with that comment.

He might not have the jinking side step etc..but he has differing skills. He has superb support lines, pace and most of all he is a finisher...when he sees the line he generally scores.

I dont see how you can claim Visser is SO much better?

Perhaps Shane Williams at 9 for the Lions? There seems a dearth of credible options at 9 across the Lions constituent teams and there's no way Williams would beat North or Visser to a role on the wing.

Hold on a second people, I am NOT saying Williams deserves to go or should be in the Lions team. But would you bet against him making himself available even if just for the media attention? He loves the limelight and had less a retirement match than an retirement farewell tour! Now with Gats in charge of the team he might sniff an opportunity! I can certainly see him dropping hints if asked about his future - "well Ive always said its a great honour to play for the Lions and certainly its something that I would have to look at if the opportunity presented itself" or something along those lines!

mowgli wrote:Shane will tour; he remains the most unique winger in the NH and if one man can change a game or find a gap its him.

No he wont there are better wingers out there now; Visser, Bowe, Ashton, North. No need for him.

Visser is better than ashton as he has a much more complete and rounded game - Visser can do what ashton does - and can do more as well like sidestep and handoff and offload.

We will see this season. I think a lot of folk will be suprised. I just hope nmptybaws picks the right backs and / or allows Visser the room to play is natural game. I have been watching Vissr for a few years now.

Visser is a slick and dangerous player - and Scotland are lucky to have him

Damn right - a proven try scorer in a Scotland shirt?

Ashton does actually have a step, 2nd test in SA i think it was where he was one and one and completely did the FB before Hougaard got back to tackle him. People just assume he doesn't because he gets his tries by tracking play and being in support on breaks. So he just runs it in for easy tries when most other players wouldn't have been anywhere near the ball.

He should tour and start IMO as he offers something completely different to any other option. We already have big powerful stepping wingers in the likes of Cuthbert, North and Visser, stepping wingers like Wade and Halfpenny, footballing wingers like Bowe and Fitzgerald, we don't have an out and out predator/poacher who is always there waiting for the final pass. Ashton will always be there to finish off moves and turn breaks into tries, on a lions tour that skill is invaluable.

Having said all that, it will be very interesting to see how Visser gets on in the 6N.

TJ it's your opinion. Doesn't mean you're right. You base your thoughts on the Pro12. A league that has most sides lining up with 2nd/3rd string sides against one another.

Would be interesting to see Visser's defensive stats. Is it as good as his club’s?

We'll get to see Visser vs Ashton in the HC. I know who my money is on. Should be interesting - either the hype will be realised or the bubble will be burst.

Let's see if Visser can score against above average defensives both in the HC and internationals.

Yes he can score vs London Irish,Racing Metro and Cardiff but failed vs Toulouse and Ulster.

At international level he scored vs Fiji - not bad but can he score vs a top 8 side?

belovedfrosties wrote:Ashton does actually have a step, 2nd test in SA i think it was where he was one and one and completely did the FB before Hougaard got back to tackle him. People just assume he doesn't because he gets his tries by tracking play and being in support on breaks. So he just runs it in for easy tries when most other players wouldn't have been anywhere near the ball.

He should tour and start IMO as he offers something completely different to any other option. We already have big powerful stepping wingers in the likes of Cuthbert, North and Visser, stepping wingers like Wade and Halfpenny, footballing wingers like Bowe and Fitzgerald, we don't have an out and out predator/poacher who is always there waiting for the final pass. Ashton will always be there to finish off moves and turn breaks into tries, on a lions tour that skill is invaluable.

Having said all that, it will be very interesting to see how Visser gets on in the 6N.

When did Ashton last score a try?

anotherworldofpain wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:Ashton does actually have a step, 2nd test in SA i think it was where he was one and one and completely did the FB before Hougaard got back to tackle him. People just assume he doesn't because he gets his tries by tracking play and being in support on breaks. So he just runs it in for easy tries when most other players wouldn't have been anywhere near the ball.

He should tour and start IMO as he offers something completely different to any other option. We already have big powerful stepping wingers in the likes of Cuthbert, North and Visser, stepping wingers like Wade and Halfpenny, footballing wingers like Bowe and Fitzgerald, we don't have an out and out predator/poacher who is always there waiting for the final pass. Ashton will always be there to finish off moves and turn breaks into tries, on a lions tour that skill is invaluable.

Having said all that, it will be very interesting to see how Visser gets on in the 6N.

When did Ashton last score a try?

Last Saturday

An international try?

beshocked wrote:TJ it's your opinion. Doesn't mean you're right. You base your thoughts on the Pro12. A league that has most sides lining up with 2nd/3rd string sides against one another.

Would be interesting to see Visser's defensive stats. Is it as good as his club’s?

We'll get to see Visser vs Ashton in the HC. I know who my money is on. Should be interesting - either the hype will be realised or the bubble will be burst.

Let's see if Visser can score against above average defensives both in the HC and internationals.

Yes he can score vs London Irish,Racing Metro and Cardiff but failed vs Toulouse and Ulster.

At international level he scored vs Fiji - not bad but can he score vs a top 8 side?

Like all good players, if he gets into position he can score a try - he won't care whether it's against a club or a country ... just like Ashton, if he can find position, he has a killer instinct. You don't really need to say either/or with Ashton and Visser - you could just say, yep, two dangerous players when given the opportunity. Your teamates also have a hand if getting you your opportunities so we'll see, these players function better in better sides but I wouldn't question Visser's innate ability and I know you're not that familiar with him but he's capable.

anotherworldofpain wrote:An international try?

Well its fairly well known that last season he was completely out of form, however his international try scoring record is still very good 15 tries in 26 games (North has 11 in 24 for reference). He was the top try scorer in his first 6 Nations equalling the all time record, joint top scorer in the World Cup despite playing 2 games less than the other top player, was top try scorer (record breaking) in the championship before becoming the top try scorer in the Jeff in his first season.

People who tout Visser quote his record of top try scorer in the Rabo and act like that means he's already better, whilst forgetting that Ashton has records in the 6N and World Cup which are both substantially better than the Rabo. He had one off season, but has started this season like he has in the past and i think we will see him back to normal in the AIs.

My main point is that Visser's largely unproven against the very best in the HC and in internationals. Especially in internationals yet many have touted him as a Lion starter on the wing.

Let's see how he does in the AIs and 6 nations before talking him up like a deity the Celts seem to believe he is.

He might well prove the hype but I want to see proof.

He ain't a deity, but then neither is Ashton - he's just a very promising player.

Then again - even those two are just two players. We'll see how more than those two guys go. The selecton field is much wider than those two.

beshocked wrote:My main point is that Visser's largely unproven against the very best in the HC and in internationals. Especially in internationals yet many have touted him as a Lion starter on the wing.

Let's see how he does in the AIs and 6 nations before talking him up like a deity the Celts seem to believe he is.

He might well prove the hype but I want to see proof.

Visser has also played for and scored for the BaBas and looked very good. He is a very good winger. Great eye for the line, great pace. He has been top try scorer in the Rabo a few times and you need to be very good to do that.

Never said Ashton is but he's a proven finisher at international level - 15 tries in 23 appearances. 2 vs Australia. In comparison Visser has only played 2 games.

The way you Celts talk about Visser it seems as if you think he's the Messiah.

Shane Williams shouldn't be recalled. Too old now.

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:My main point is that Visser's largely unproven against the very best in the HC and in internationals. Especially in internationals yet many have touted him as a Lion starter on the wing.

Let's see how he does in the AIs and 6 nations before talking him up like a deity the Celts seem to believe he is.

He might well prove the hype but I want to see proof.

Visser has also played for and scored for the BaBas and looked very good. He is a very good winger. Great eye for the line, great pace. He has been top try scorer in the Rabo a few times and you need to be very good to do that.

One game for the BaBas doesn't make him proven at international level.

I'll wait till the HC,AIs and 6 nations to see if he really has got what it takes to be picked for the Lions. I won't pencil his name in based on playing well in the Pro12.

...and nobody this side will be penciling in any reputations that are being created, or recreated, in the AP - they too will wait for approval when they come up against Top14 and Pro12 opponents, either in HC or 6N.

He has played for the BaBas, Scotland and in the Heineken cup many times already. Yes the six nations is the real test. However, I have seen enough to be reasonably confident he is a winger of the highest caliber and a good bet for a lions post.

beshocked wrote:

Both are good players. Ashton has more international experience. Particularly scoring vs the Aussies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JfMXncKDqA

Yes we all know he's very good at running faster than some other people.
Whilst I don't think Shane should tour, to even suggest Ashton is a better winger than him is moronic.

Guns Germs I don't call once and twice many times to be honest. If you think he's good enough that's your opinion. I don't think he has done enough and I'll keep that opinion till he proves me wrong.

belovedfrosties wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:An international try?

Well its fairly well known that last season he was completely out of form,...

Allow me to stop you there. Surely you don't want Lions picked on "a fairly good international record" but on current form. Surely the last two Lions excusrsions revealed that already.

anotherworldofpain the Lion's wingers should be ideally picked based on form leading up the tour. This means form in the AIs, 6 nations and HC will be important. Pro12 and AP will have some importance but less so.

Ashton needs to rediscover his trying scoring mojo internationally. Visser needs to score in competitive international matches against top 10 countries.

Ashton has scored two tries and beaten the Aussies which is something in favour. If there are two players in equally good form surely you would pick the one with more pedigree and experience vs the opposition you are facing?

I'm not sure there is any such thing as "equally good form" so the rest is kind of moot.

The final combinator will surely be a mix of overall game strategy, individual form, raw talent and politics. Of that I am sure.

So you don't think pedigree and experience will factor in?