Ashton for IC

Many great wingers have been converted to IC/2nd 5/8th when they lose the raw finishing ability on the wing.

With the lack of options in England and the one-dimensional nature of encumbent option Manu Tuilagi, should Lancaster borrow from the Wayne Smith book of tricks and convert Chris Ashton to a 12?

He is no stranger to the heavier trafficked routes, accustomed to creating space for those around him from his league days, and to scoring many tries by joining the line at this position. He is quick off the mark, a strong defender, bulky enough to carry, hold up the ball and hit a ruck, and has that immaculate sense of rugby vision that allows him to be "at the right place at the right time". Possibly he might need to tweak his kicking game and work on his long pass, but then so did Ma'a Nonu.

Worth a thought, surely.

Cant kick, cant pass, cant tackle?

Perfect model for an England 12....

^^^ Constructive comments/criticism only please, I am keen to avoid any "WUM" intereference on this topic.

anotherworldofpain wrote:^^^ Constructive comments/criticism only please, I am keen to avoid any "WUM" intereference on this topic.

Priceless.

AWOP, I tend to agree with PSW, they are significant areas of concern for moving someone to IC.

In defence of AWOP its no more of a stupid idea than moving banahan there

Billy Twelvetrees, England 12.

To be fair he runs better lines than Barrit or Turner-Hall

Oh dear, oh deary dear, oh deary deary dear... (you get it)

On the plus side perfect english will make posting so much easier for you.

12. Banahan
13. Ashton

Now theres a centre partnership with power, offload ability and the awareness to track the breaks/half breaks and pick up the offload and score straight down the middle.

English midfield prayers answered.

Comfort wrote:12. Banahan
13. Ashton

Now theres a centre partnership with power, offload ability and the awareness to track the breaks/half breaks and pick up the offload and score straight down the middle.

English midfield prayers answered.

I actually think that could be a functional centre partnership...

Billy Whizz played a few games in the 12 position. However, I don't think he ever needed to kick in that position...

The only problem with the Bananaman/Ashton centre partnership is that Ashtons defencive capabilities are about as good as his boxing defence, and Banahans ability to turn and cover is about as good as the titanics....

Therefore whenver Ashton has a crash down his channell (which would normally be the 10 channell but a weak 12 offers a much better option) he's going to need either his 10, or bananaman to cover, if the 10 covers the % of linebreaks increase, and if Bananaman has to step in at all average paced flankers will be able to get outside him, let alone modern day wingers!!!

Going forward they'd be 1 dimensional, and defencively they would be r**e victims!

Mr Bounce wrote:Billy Whizz played a few games in the 12 position. However, I don't think he ever needed to kick in that position...

I recall he never got passed the ball either

Great idea...! I think this would be superb for the six nations and AIs. Can see loads of benefits. Though not many good ones for English rugby...

Basic reasons being a contradiction of all that was said above.

He is a stranger to the heavier trafficed routes,

He is not accustomed to creating space for those around him never has in his league days or now in Union

He scores some tries by joining the line at this position but only if the backrow are "monitoring a huge gap for him to run through.

He is quick off the mark but rarely takes on opposition one on one

He can't defender well enough for this to be considered any bonus to his selection

bulky enough to carry but doesnt like one on one front ups

Doesn't hold up the ball and hit a ruck or know how to slip a pass.


Leave him on the wing its the only place for him.

Comfort wrote:12. Banahan
13. Ashton

Now theres a centre partnership with power, offload ability and the awareness to track the breaks/half breaks and pick up the offload and score straight down the middle.

English midfield prayers answered.

To clarify, this was sarcastic.

Oh

In that case my respect for you has returned slightly!

maestegmafia wrote:Great idea...! I think this would be superb for the six nations and AIs. Can see loads of benefits. Though not many good ones for English rugby...

Basic reasons being a contradiction of all that was said above.

He is a stranger to the heavier trafficed routes,

He is not accustomed to creating space for those around him never has in his league days or now in Union

He scores some tries by joining the line at this position but only if the backrow are "monitoring a huge gap for him to run through.

He is quick off the mark but rarely takes on opposition one on one

He can't defender well enough for this to be considered any bonus to his selection

bulky enough to carry but doesnt like one on one front ups

Doesn't hold up the ball and hit a ruck or know how to slip a pass.


Leave him on the wing its the only place for him.

If that is representative of the outside impression then it is a good thing! It adds stealth to the attack, since nobody rates him in some of his core strength.

Ashton's biggest asset is his ability to track ball carriers arriving late at speed. He can do this because he is out on the wing normally. Stand him outside the stand-off and that ability disappears.

Looseheaded wrote:

Comfort wrote:12. Banahan
13. Ashton

Now theres a centre partnership with power, offload ability and the awareness to track the breaks/half breaks and pick up the offload and score straight down the middle.

English midfield prayers answered.

I actually think that could be a functional centre partnership...

wouldn't mind seeing that at all....for a laugh. Bannahan has a decent offload with no sidestep and a slow build up, but what a decoy runner

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh

In that case my respect for you has returned slightly!

To be fair, i was originally going to recommend Tuilagi/Croft as the wingers for this selection with Farrell pulling the strings at 10.

The only time Banahan has been usefull as a convincing decoy runner is when he gets into the opposing line, it takes 2 minutes to get around him!

AWOP

You have problems!

Not sure AWOP is that crazy.

Maybe Ashton could track the 10 (in attack phase) arriving late & fast, bingo.

Otherwise the remainder of IC required talents have not been evidenced so far. Not to say they could not be there.

gregor

If it was as easy as that just play a 7 at IC, they'll track the 10 blindly also!!!

LondonTiger wrote:Ashton's biggest asset is his ability to track ball carriers arriving late at speed. He can do this because he is out on the wing normally. Stand him outside the stand-off and that ability disappears.

You can track the ball where-ever you start. Unless you think the ball is always in the center. Look at Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Israel Dagg, Corey Jane or Richie McCaw for examples.

AWOP im surprised, I've never spoke to an all blacks fan who has waxed lyrical about moving a member of the back 3 into the centre.........

comfort

Well the ghost always did love to set the platform for the NH to slate and argue about a player.

IMO Nonu is massively overrated, and with regards to tracking the ball Dagg and Jane are poor quality, they excell outwide when in space, and if they played for any other nation they'd struggle.

Blue Man, hahah, you must have been / are a 7 then ?

I think AWOP / GGHost is a bit tongue in cheek here, but got some amusing banter going.

Played 7 once, a few weeks ago... IS NOT FOR ME!!!!!

I usually play lock, but have appeared at 9 and 13 this year already.

AWOP's tongue in cheek in everything he does, but I was serious about Janes and Daggs tracking abilities, they have the luxury of being all blacks (of which quite a few players have had) and therefore get opportunities that most other players don't, I honestly think they are average international quality!

Watch Dagg in the Bledisloe Cup triumph for NZ this year bluesman, check out the finishing on the tries he scores. There is some serious ground covered and he pops up all over the place to finish off! It is quite genius.

At club level...

Ive scored 60 yarders while playing lock, people have called that genius too.

Aled Brew was a club favourite not to mention demon of a try scorer for the dragons, does that make him genius too?

Perspective!

HAHAHAHA

Just noticed you said Bledisloe!!!!

LondonTiger wrote:Ashton's biggest asset is his ability to track ball carriers arriving late at speed. He can do this because he is out on the wing normally. Stand him outside the stand-off and that ability disappears.

I should have put that in a nice concise way like you did instead of waffling for ages... well said.

LondonTiger wrote:Ashton's biggest asset is his ability to track ball carriers arriving late at speed. He can do this because he is out on the wing normally. Stand him outside the stand-off and that ability disappears.

Couldn't agree more.

He's still a very good winger, but I'm not at all convinced he'd be good enough at IC. His passing doesn't seem to be anywhere near good enough for IC - he may cope at club level, but certainly not at international level.

The lad not only can't defend he can't tackle! he is more likely to take out one of his own team mates.

He is clearly a good finisher who enjoys playing behind a dominant pack, but sorry no WUM he would be eaten for breakfast in other position beyond the wing.

I disagree. Too much is made of this "ball tracking". It's simply the way that a player with ability to read the game plays on the wing. It is this ability to read the game that I am confident he will transfer to 12. For example watch how Ma'a Nonu instinctively sums up the situation and makes so many good decisions on attack, weather to commit defenders, take the line and hold, distribute wide, run a decoy or put in a kick. He seldom makes the wrong choice and gets isolated such as a Tuilagi will. Ashton has a similar empathy to attack space and set up his team mates. This will transfer with some tooth pain to the inner channels. Mark my words, his time at IC will come.

Umaga did alright moving in from the wing.

Lets hope England give it a try.

Moving players out of position really works well doesn't it?

Ugo Monye was a revelation at FB for England. Manu Tuilagi is a much better 12 than 13. Mauro Bergamasco is a world class scrum half. Matt Banahan had a really good game at 12 vs Ireland......

Nice WUM anotherworldofpain.

In other news, Richie McCaw has stated his desire to finish his career at out half. Having taken so much punishment over the years and the inevitable loss of pace it’s a logical decision.
The move will have to be ratified by the IRB however as his magic cloak of invisibility may be deemed too much of an advantage with the extra time and space in the 10 channel.
Former Springbok captain Jon Smith was quoted as saying "When I played against Richie at least it was at close quarters. You couldn't see him but you could get his scent. It's a manly mix of musk and mint. I'm afraid if he was out of nose range he could just stick the ball up his jumper/cloak and walk in try after try. I wonder what he looks like?"

I always thought Foden would make a good inside centre with his skill set...
I believe he would be better there than his Saints colleague Ashton

pbuk0 wrote:I always thought Foden would make a good inside centre with his skill set...
I believe he would be better there than his Saints colleague Ashton

Foden is a winger these days. According to the England set up anyway.

Great English strategy move your best FB and outside centre out of position.

Submachine wrote:In other news, Richie McCaw has stated his desire to finish his career at out half. Having taken so much punishment over the years and the inevitable loss of pace it’s a logical decision.
The move will have to be ratified by the IRB however as his magic cloak of invisibility may be deemed too much of an advantage with the extra time and space in the 10 channel.
Former Springbok captain Jon Smith was quoted as saying "When I played against Richie at least it was at close quarters. You couldn't see him but you could get his scent. It's a manly mix of musk and mint. I'm afraid if he was out of nose range he could just stick the ball up his jumper/cloak and walk in try after try. I wonder what he looks like?"

Good work very funny

I was just trying to keep with the spirit of the OP.

beshocked wrote:

pbuk0 wrote:I always thought Foden would make a good inside centre with his skill set...
I believe he would be better there than his Saints colleague Ashton

Foden is a winger these days. According to the England set up anyway.

Great English strategy move your best FB and outside centre out of position.

I am not sure Foden is the Best FB anymore.. I think Goode/ Brown are pushing him close...

beshocked wrote:

pbuk0 wrote:I always thought Foden would make a good inside centre with his skill set...
I believe he would be better there than his Saints colleague Ashton

Foden is a winger these days. According to the England set up anyway.

Great English strategy move your best FB and outside centre out of position.

Surely hes a scrum half anyway?

I think Browns probably the best FB in England at this second in time.

With all the ariel ping pong thats coming back, maybe AWOP's just ahead of the game.

11. Foden
12. Banahan
13. Ashton
14. Goode
15. Brown

3 FBs, plenty of kicking options and you dont lose the speed or bulk in the centres....

Comfort wrote:I think Browns probably the best FB in England at this second in time.

With all the ariel ping pong thats coming back, maybe AWOP's just ahead of the game.

11. Foden
12. Banahan
13. Ashton
14. Goode
15. Brown

3 FBs, plenty of kicking options and you dont lose the speed or bulk in the centres....

Reminds me of when Gatland stated in the press that Wales were looking to kick at England to put them under pressure.....England picked a side with 4 players with test starts at fullback and 2 with tests starts a FH. Doh.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Comfort wrote:I think Browns probably the best FB in England at this second in time.

With all the ariel ping pong thats coming back, maybe AWOP's just ahead of the game.

11. Foden
12. Banahan
13. Ashton
14. Goode
15. Brown

3 FBs, plenty of kicking options and you dont lose the speed or bulk in the centres....

Reminds me of when Gatland stated in the press that Wales were looking to kick at England to put them under pressure.....England picked a side with 4 players with test starts at fullback and 2 with tests starts a FH. Doh.

Your probably too young to remember but we fielded a backline against you once where almost every players was in the running to be flyhalf. Jonathan Davies, Bleddyn Bowen, Mark Ring and Tony Clement. We won a triple crown that year

Im not that young, If Jonathan Davies was playing it couldnt have been that long ago hes only 24