MacVisser Vs Ashton

I think we can all agree that both of these two will be fighting for a spot in the Lions tour , injury permitting.

For those of you that watched the Sarries Vs Edinburgh game today i think you can quite easily say Ashton was a class above Macvisser who for the majority of the game was invisible in attack ( Mostly down to his forward seeing unable to get any ball) and in Defence which Edinburgh were made to do a lot of.

On the other hand Ashton scored one try with a perfect line straight through the middle of the Edinburgh Defence. Made 2 long runs down the wing ,one of which resulted in a try. And he was ever present in Defence and didn't make a bad decision all of the game.

Admittedly MacVisser had an off game but my point is when Mr Gatts and Co. Start making selections and if they are torn between Ashton and MacVisser , because of MacVissers lack of test time against 1st Class opposition how much will in his Lack of form in this European game come back to haunt him? Or does Heineken Cup (THe highest standard of Rugby in the NH) form count for very Little in terms of lion selection ?

Are you saying HC rugby is of a higher standard than 6N rugby?

The wingers are going to be hotly contested, especially if Halfpenny is selected there and not at fullback for his goalkicking and the flyhalf is given responsbility just for his game.

Certainly Gatland will look at club form but I think final decisions will be delayed until the 6N.

Difficult to tell in such a one sided match. Ashton is always good for a try or two in a dominant team, but like all wingers struggles when on the back foot.

For what it's worth I think they'll both go on the tour, but the 6N's will be the decider.

Ashton gets a lot of stick doesnt he, he is actually not a bad winger.

Visser is good and will only get better but watch out for his brother who, i think, is even better than him...

To be fair Ashton mainly gets stick from the Welsh on here and a certain

Most others try to ignore the idiotec press hype and just focus on his play.

Will Visser's brother be playing for Scotland or Netherlands?

Visser went off injured at half time and his team was battered up front, so it wasn't really a fair comparison yesterday.

I imagine that he will follow his brother to represent Scotland.

There are some very very good players here in NL. The Dutch have a fairly good league developing and there are scouts at most major matches now so i expect that a few more Dutch players will move to the UK/Ireland soon.

Keep an eye out for a few O'Vissers there Billser!

There are a few rodders, keeping my finger on the pulse

Back to Ashton, i am pretty sure that he would be selected in all NH teams. He is a lot better than some people see him. He runs some very good lines and is very hard to stop.

One time they came together and Visser won clearly - stopped ashton dead and stole the ball.

Visser could blame his hapless, gutless forwards for that debacle so I don't think he can be assessed on that woeful display yesterday. Ashton took his chances as a seasoned Int player should - his forwards created the space for him. Very well played Saracens

Visser picked up an injury early on and soldiered on til half time, when he was replaced.

Hardly an accurate assessment of where things stand in terms of lions selection.

And he's scored 8 tries already!!!!

Dont know what makes you think Visser jnr's a better player? Hes played like 5 games for us and hasnt done anything of note. Hes also inelgible for Scotland.

And I dont think we can draw any conclusions from that game. Cory Jane and Brian Habana wouldve looked poor with that platform yesterday.

No tries to Visser's name yesterday! Quite unusual, even if only playing for 40.

Ashton seems to be enjoying the change of scenery at Sarries. He's not old and undoubtedly has plenty more to say. England will be hoping he can convert his new spike in form to the AI's and 6N later in the season.

Visser should have been subbed off soon after his injury occured - it was plain to see he couldn't run properly yet stayed on for another 20 mins

It will be Visser, North Bowe and Cuthbert...Splashton will be lucky to travel

mowgli wrote:It will be Visser, North Bowe and Cuthbert...Splashton will be lucky to travel

Agree also 1/2penny is a very good option offering a different type of wing, Visser and Ashton may both miss out.

eirebilly wrote:Ashton gets a lot of stick doesnt he, he is actually not a bad winger.

Visser is good and will only get better but watch out for his brother who, i think, is even better than him...

Have you sep visser play, he is no where near as good as Tim, been playing for Boroughmuir in the scottish premier and he looks
pretty ordinary even there.

glamorganalun wrote:

mowgli wrote:It will be Visser, North Bowe and Cuthbert...Splashton will be lucky to travel

Agree also 1/2penny is a very good option offering a different type of wing, Visser and Ashton may both miss out.

I think Visser must go, he is a try machine and it could be he is the bolter who is made on tour......1/2 meanwhile is i agree an extra winger but i dont think he will keep visser out....maybe Bowe but not Visser

Watched the HC game also. Visser made a couple of passes, beat one man on his 22, fell over a bit. The great white hope for the Lions I think not. Maybe the next one. Bowe, Cuthbert and Splash will travel. And Foden to cover the back 3.

So no North or 1/2p Barney?

Also Visser went off injured first half didn't he, plus he was looking awkward well before going off, hardly fair especially when the Sarries pack were so dominant!!!

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Watched the HC game also. Visser made a couple of passes, beat one man on his 22, fell over a bit. The great white hope for the Lions I think not. Maybe the next one. Bowe, Cuthbert and Splash will travel. And Foden to cover the back 3.

You're seriously going to judge someone who has been rabbo top try scorer 3 years in a row, who has scored 8 tries already this season, on 40 mins you've just watched - half of which he was injured to the point it was clearly visible he couldn't run properly?

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Watched the HC game also. Visser made a couple of passes, beat one man on his 22, fell over a bit. The great white hope for the Lions I think not. Maybe the next one. Bowe, Cuthbert and Splash will travel. And Foden to cover the back 3.

1/2 will get the nod over foden for his boot

Probably, my list wasn't exhaustive. Just can't see Visser making it over The Splash - the back 3 is an area of reasonable strength for the Lions.

See that's a reasonable argument - basing it on 40 minutes when he was injured is not a decent argument!

I agree; i see the following as very probable

1/2 - versatility and boot
Bowe - Lions experience
Cuthbert - form
North - because he is so big
Visser - dependant on a good Autumn and excellent 6 Nations

Gatland likes his big wingers and of course this is all dependant on 6Ns perfs but I can really see Ashton and especially foden missing out.

Ashton can be a divisive charachter and for me would be a risk on that alone for a Lions place. Visser is another George North an absolute blockbuster of a winger as his last 2 seasons have showed in average teams he can score from almost anywhere. The 6 Nations will be their show piece along with the AI's but Ashton is not popular in his own teams and IMO he could be a bit of a liability on the Lions tour. I await your dramatic Ashtonesque replies

That's a fair point ruby - you can't do with volatile characters in a team that relies so much on team spirit.

Can imagine he's the kind of player that has peed off most other players he's played against!

I agree that Ashton is divisive amongst the general public, but not amongst his teammates, they've only had good things to say about him in that regard, that he very much helps create a good social atmosphere.

And in terms of opposition players, take him and Manu Tuilagi for instance, they had a very public bust up, but when Tuilagi turned up for England duty Ashton is meant to have made a point of going up to him and sorting things out, and they've had a very good relationship since.

I bet the exchange went something like this

Chris: Hi Manu, please don't knock the carp out of me again

He's divisive and has a loud mouth - Lions liability

So also don't take Haskell please, for the love of god.

Ashtons predatory wing play and strike rate is not an issue here. He is a guy who likes his opinions to be known whether he is playing or not. With cohesiveness being key in a Lions environment he's just got the potential to unsettle things, that wouldn't help.

The prejudical opinions of posters that they are certain are factual based on the pantomine sketching of the press is hilarious. It's very illuminating in terms of which posters it's worth paying attention to and those that are credulous recepticles for whatever the media churns out.

The truth hurts, why not just deal with it - Jim Mallinder had to

Ah yes, the truth, I'm sure you're certain you know what that is. Not entirely sure what you expect me to deal with, if it's the same as Mallinder, then it's that Ashton didn't want to go to Saracens. I don't really see what relevance that has to a Brumbies supporter. But anyway, you guys keep on bigging up and knocking down the likes of Visser, Ashton & North like you're told to, it really is quite amusing to observe and you all seem to enjoy it so very much.

I'd like to see Ashton on the plane (and pitch!), not just because I'm English, but also because of the try he scored against Aus in Nov '10. You know the one, where he turned Drew Mitchell inside out, and Quade Cooper could possibly have stopped him, if he'd been half arsed.

Anyway, psychologically, they're not going to relish him lining up, and probably overcommit defenders to secure his side, potentially opening up the other wing for whoever (North?) to do his thing!

Hopefully Ashton will be back to his support running best and have a corking 6 nations, otherwise I am afraid he is way down the pecking order and with Foden and 1/2 almost certain to go for utility value as much as anything else i can think of 6 wingers i woudl be inclined to take before the mercurial Ashton

mowgli wrote:I agree; i see the following as very probable

1/2 - versatility and boot
Bowe - Lions experience
Cuthbert - form
North - because he is so big
Visser - dependant on a good Autumn and excellent 6 Nations

Gatland likes his big wingers and of course this is all dependant on 6Ns perfs but I can really see Ashton and especially foden missing out.

I don't doubt that this is a probable selection, or that they may deserve to go. But i think it would be a massive mistake.

If there's one team that can make big burly backs look utterly pedestrian, it's Oz. You think you'll steamroller them, but it never happens, they're too wily.

All those guys aside from Halfpenny are powerful wingers, but none are either out and out pace or offer guile and trickery. That's not to criticise them, or to suggest they're leaden footed or anything, but there's no variety and against Oz's speedsters and tricksters, I'd worry they'd be shown up. I'd take Ashton for the pace, providing he shows some form.

Hood83 wrote:

mowgli wrote:I agree; i see the following as very probable

1/2 - versatility and boot
Bowe - Lions experience
Cuthbert - form
North - because he is so big
Visser - dependant on a good Autumn and excellent 6 Nations

Gatland likes his big wingers and of course this is all dependant on 6Ns perfs but I can really see Ashton and especially foden missing out.

I don't doubt that this is a probable selection, or that they may deserve to go. But i think it would be a massive mistake.

If there's one team that can make big burly backs look utterly pedestrian, it's Oz. You think you'll steamroller them, but it never happens, they're too wily.

All those guys aside from Halfpenny are powerful wingers, but none are either out and out pace or offer guile and trickery. That's not to criticise them, or to suggest they're leaden footed or anything, but there's no variety and against Oz's speedsters and tricksters, I'd worry they'd be shown up. I'd take Ashton for the pace, providing he shows some form.

I jsut don't think gats has it in him...he has spent years reinventing wales, changing their style and bringing in huge backs....Shane aside the Welsh backline has been getting bigger and bigger....and while i agree iwth you that you cannot steamroller the aussies I think that is the route he will take.

Aside from Ashton who do you think deserves a look for pace and guile?

The Aussies have been steam rollered by Samoa, SA and NZ in the past 12 months - cut the myths

and they have beaten wales 5-0 and the lions coach is the welsh coach Q E D

mowgli wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

mowgli wrote:I agree; i see the following as very probable

1/2 - versatility and boot
Bowe - Lions experience
Cuthbert - form
North - because he is so big
Visser - dependant on a good Autumn and excellent 6 Nations

Gatland likes his big wingers and of course this is all dependant on 6Ns perfs but I can really see Ashton and especially foden missing out.

I don't doubt that this is a probable selection, or that they may deserve to go. But i think it would be a massive mistake.

If there's one team that can make big burly backs look utterly pedestrian, it's Oz. You think you'll steamroller them, but it never happens, they're too wily.

All those guys aside from Halfpenny are powerful wingers, but none are either out and out pace or offer guile and trickery. That's not to criticise them, or to suggest they're leaden footed or anything, but there's no variety and against Oz's speedsters and tricksters, I'd worry they'd be shown up. I'd take Ashton for the pace, providing he shows some form.

I jsut don't think gats has it in him...he has spent years reinventing wales, changing their style and bringing in huge backs....Shane aside the Welsh backline has been getting bigger and bigger....and while i agree iwth you that you cannot steamroller the aussies I think that is the route he will take.

Aside from Ashton who do you think deserves a look for pace and guile?

Tommy Bowe doesn't have guile or trickery? Jeez have you seen the guy play? Visser is decent speed wise too. My bolter for the Lions is Zebo. Pace to burn and didn't do so bad against the ABs that he came back destroyed. I'd far rather see Zebo than Ashton!

Who the hell thinks Bowe is a power winger. Is it tge same guy who thought Greenwood was a power centre?

It seems to have escaped everyone's notice that Visser and Ashton play on opposite wings.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:It seems to have escaped everyone's notice that Visser and Ashton play on opposite wings.

+1

So basically Ashton is fighting for a Lions spot ahead of Bowe, Cuthbert and Trimble while Visser is against Zebo, North and Earls? I'd rate Visser's chances ahead of Ashton!

Does North not play on the left and Cuthbert on the right for Wales?

You're right, bugger... I'll change it!