MacVisser Vs Ashton

First topic message reminder :

I think we can all agree that both of these two will be fighting for a spot in the Lions tour , injury permitting.

For those of you that watched the Sarries Vs Edinburgh game today i think you can quite easily say Ashton was a class above Macvisser who for the majority of the game was invisible in attack ( Mostly down to his forward seeing unable to get any ball) and in Defence which Edinburgh were made to do a lot of.

On the other hand Ashton scored one try with a perfect line straight through the middle of the Edinburgh Defence. Made 2 long runs down the wing ,one of which resulted in a try. And he was ever present in Defence and didn't make a bad decision all of the game.

Admittedly MacVisser had an off game but my point is when Mr Gatts and Co. Start making selections and if they are torn between Ashton and MacVisser , because of MacVissers lack of test time against 1st Class opposition how much will in his Lack of form in this European game come back to haunt him? Or does Heineken Cup (THe highest standard of Rugby in the NH) form count for very Little in terms of lion selection ?

It wouldn't be a surprise to see someone like Foden or 1/2p take up a wing spot if a couple of other straight full backs end up making the squad.

EngInAuck wrote:I think we can all agree that both of these two will be fighting for a spot in the Lions tour , injury permitting.

For those of you that watched the Sarries Vs Edinburgh game today i think you can quite easily say Ashton was a class above Macvisser who for the majority of the game was invisible in attack ............

Vieser was injured early on and subbed at the half. Showed a bit in the time he wasn't injured and took the ball off ashton IIRC

how much will in his Lack of form in this European game come back to haunt him?

Visser must show he is in top form somehow to get on that plane. its not like there is a shortage of quality wings.

TJ Visser didn't score though.

Ashton crucially did and his work was apparent in most of the tries.

Ashton is probably the premier wing in England currently so is bound to be a strong contender for the Lions.

No arguemnt with that. You cannot compare performances fairly tho

Ashton wouldn't get near the Welsh squad with North and Cuthbert, whom may i add will be the test wingers for the Lions tour.

Visser is unproven at international level.

It's Visser that has it all to do to show he's good enough.

Ashton looks to be getting back to his best. He'll tour.

viewtothegym wrote:Ashton wouldn't get near the Welsh squad with North and Cuthbert, whom may i add will be the test wingers for the Lions tour.

That's a pretty one-dimensional wing pair. Australia would like that I'm sure.

Visser scores tries week in week out in the best League in Europe,
Ashton scores tries in statistically one of the weakest defence leagues in the NH

Avalon wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Ashton wouldn't get near the Welsh squad with North and Cuthbert, whom may i add will be the test wingers for the Lions tour.

That's a pretty one-dimensional wing pair. Australia would like that I'm sure.

How are they one dimensional? yes both are big but have a better side step ,kicking game and defence than Ashton.

True TJ but it certainly doesn't do Ashton any harm.


viewtothegym Ashton has scored more tries than both.

Better strike rate too internationally and club level overall.

You're lucky Ashton isn't facing either in the HC.

What's not to like about Ashton? He's in good form scoring tries. He has experience scoring tries vs the Aussies.He's showing himself to be a good team player at Saracens. He's not a greedy player - he will pass the ball if he believes a team mate has a better chance than him to score. He's not a primadonna contrary to popular opinion.

viewtothegym wrote:

Avalon wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Ashton wouldn't get near the Welsh squad with North and Cuthbert, whom may i add will be the test wingers for the Lions tour.

That's a pretty one-dimensional wing pair. Australia would like that I'm sure.

How are they one dimensional? yes both are big but have a better side step ,kicking game and defence than Ashton.

Both keep finishing on the losing side versus Aus. Time to try something different.

Are you always so argumentative?

Ashton has faced North, remember when North helped Wales to winning a Triple crown at twickers

viewtothegym the best league in Europe? Not going on the first round of HC results!

Better kicking game and defence than Ashton? Ashton is honing these aspects at one of the sides that specialises in these aspects.

Ashton doesn't have the best side step but that's not what his strength is. His support play is excellent, he runs exquisite lines and can carve through defences using his pace. He's also great for his fellow backs because he creates opportunities for others with his handling.

He's not just a poacher, he's a creator for others. Not the best for one on one but he's one of the best players to give the ball to from a line break.

Avalon wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

Avalon wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Ashton wouldn't get near the Welsh squad with North and Cuthbert, whom may i add will be the test wingers for the Lions tour.

That's a pretty one-dimensional wing pair. Australia would like that I'm sure.

How are they one dimensional? yes both are big but have a better side step ,kicking game and defence than Ashton.

Both keep finishing on the losing side versus Aus. Time to try something different.

Are you always so argumentative?

It's sad you see me as argumentative , just because im right and your wrong.

Viewtothegym Ashton wasn't in form then and he doesn't perform at his best with Farrell at fly half.

Ashton works best with a more creative fly half who will bring him into the game. His partnership with Charlie has been very productive - 4 tries in 3 games when both are playing.

As an out and out winger Ashton has as good a chance as any, that for me is not in dispute here. I would also say that there is little between North, Cuthbert, Visser and Ashton - They all bring something a little different. Out of those 4 Visser would actually be my first choice as I have watched him for the past 3 years and he reminds me of John Kirwan.

viewtothegym wrote:

Avalon wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:

Avalon wrote:

viewtothegym wrote:Ashton wouldn't get near the Welsh squad with North and Cuthbert, whom may i add will be the test wingers for the Lions tour.

That's a pretty one-dimensional wing pair. Australia would like that I'm sure.

How are they one dimensional? yes both are big but have a better side step ,kicking game and defence than Ashton.

Both keep finishing on the losing side versus Aus. Time to try something different.

Are you always so argumentative?

It's sad you see me as argumentative , just because im right and your wrong.

In your opinion sunshine

Rubyguby

Back to the drawing board for Visser. I listened to the hype before the game but he didn't live up to the status of deity.

There's a big difference between Ashton and Visser.

Ashton has the better strike rate both at club level and internationally overall.

He has much more experience at international level. He has scored vs the Aussies.

He won the head to head between the two.

Visser has proven he's just hype when coming up against a decent defence as seen in the game on Saturday. He couldn't deal with the physicality and intensity of Saracens.

Visser has more to prove than Ashton. Visser had an opportunity to prove he is better than Ashton. He blew it.

So you like to make a judgement based on 20-30 minutes when a guy has an injury. I'll reserve my 3 year appraisal thanks and I have him above North and Cuthbert as well

You can strike rate all you want - He has been the top try scorer in his league for the past 3 years whilst playing in a relatively poor team - That is the league with the current HC and Grand Slam champions by the way

Rubyguby this was Visser's opportunity to prove he can score vs a decent defence. He got injured because he couldn't deal with the physicality of a tough hard tackling English side.

Not used to the intensity of one of the best sides in England. Hell of a wake up call.

I don't see the hype personally.

"He got injured because he couldn't deal with the physicality of a tough hard tackling English side. " Nice balanced appraisal there - for a moment I was taking your post seriously - My apologies

Alternatively maybe Visser feigned injury to get off the pitch!

Rubyguby in all seriousness what has Visser done? Sure - he has scored some tries in the Pro12 but does that mean he should be a Lions contender? Of course not.

Should be really looking at his performances against top opposition, particularly in Europe. Against the best opposition he has faced - Toulouse and Saracens - he failed to score.

On the international scene he's unproven. Ok he scored vs Fiji but they hardly the most stellar of opposition.


Basically the support for Visser for the Lions is based on quite a few Pro12 tries and two tries vs Fiji.

The problem you have Beschocked is that for what ever reason Ashton is just a guy who is disliked regardless of his ability.
I dont know why, he just seems to create this impression amongst others...so only England fans...and within the club circles Sarries fans like him.

So he will never be a favorite for the Lions trip despite having been on the winning side v Australia (something neither of the Welsh wings have done) and scored against them (something Visser hasnt done)...

Id just not bother argueing aymore...you wont win. But hey who cares...the less English involved in the welsh dominated lions that gets beat by Australia the better...

beshocked wrote:Rubyguby this was Visser's opportunity to prove he can score vs a decent defence. He got injured because he couldn't deal with the physicality of a tough hard tackling English side. .

I was standing just beside where he got injured and I could swear he went over his ankle just after he took the tap and go. Not really sure how it's possible to claim that was due to a "tough hard tackling English side", but happy to be proven wrong.

I'm not saying Visser is better or worse than Ashton, but it would be tough to judge him on 40 mins of rugby when he was nursing an injury for some of that time.

No need for the bitchfest.

Its true that this was an opportunity for Visser to shine and it didn't happen for him. He is a different sort of player to Ashton and a part of the decision will come down to style wanted by the coach.

Its still North Bowe Cuthbert Visser and Ashton that its between I guess to be lions wings - and their performances over the next few months will decide who gets to go.

Can Ashton tackle - because Visser cannot. Elsewhere some Burgh supporters were complaining about him "pussying out" of tackles.

Fine EWT spoons I apologise. If that's what you saw I'll take your word on it.

TJ I agree it will come down ultimately to how to each player performs before the Lions tour. The AIs and 6 nations will also give us an opinion.

Some stats because I was bored

Ashton
League - Played 56 Scored 36 Rate 0.64
HC - Played 18 Scored 9 rate 0.5
CC - Played 6 Scored 7 Rate 1.17
Combined Try Rate 0.65


Visser
League - Played 61+1 Scored 45 Rate 0.73
HC - Played 18 Scored 6 Rate 0.33
CC - Played 11+7 Scored 5 Rate 0.28
Combined Try Rate 0.58

Visser being used as a sub by Newcastle in the Challenge Cup slightly skews his stats

Christ this thread is really doing my nut in.


The facts

Visser got injured early on in the game. This injury was clearly inhibiting his ability to run, as anyone at the game could see. He stayed on til half time to try to run it off but was subbed off because he wouldn't play on.

His injury is such that he is a doubt for this weekend.

He is rabbo top try scorer 3 years in a row. In that time Edinburgh have finished 2nd once, and near the bottom in the other 2 years. Therefore he's scoring tries in a team that hadn't regularly played well.

He scored 2 tries on his debut for Scotland

He was a key player in high pressure games in the hk last year.

Fiction

This was his chance to prove his worth and he came up short - really? Lions selection is based on the first hk game of the year? Who knew

Ashton scored, visser didn't - see previous point and info in the facts section.

He can't cut it against physical teams - he's scored tries against most teams that he's played against, including some very physical teams. Also, didn't realise australia were renowned for their physicality...



I could go on but there's no point. The ignorance on display here is getting ridiculous.

I honestly have no idea why so many people have such an issue with him? If he was Irish, welsh or English you'd be singing his praises.

Now I'm not seeing he's a guaranteed pick - he's got to prove himself in the AIs and 6n first - but some of the arguments being put forward are absolutely absurd and highly ignorant basing opinions on one game where he was injured!

it's cos he's dutch....hardly a rugby hotbed....no hills=weak thighs, probably spent his teenage years toking, making clogs and sticking his finger in a dyke

So we must discredit Ashton not showing up against North in the six nations because he was out if form?
But we must focus on Visser playing 39 mins of HC rugby this season and only having touched the ball twice?

Visser is a cracking winger and had a hatrick against the physical Ospreys once.

WTF is going on on this thread, IMHO North and Cuthbert both lead the way followed by Visser Ashton and Bowe all on par (Vissers club form is immence, and Bowe is a proven performer on the int stage, Ashton scared Aus once too)

So whats the problem?

Exactly!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ashton scared Aus once too

Given that he's scored both home and away against Aus (in two wins) I'd say he's scared them at least twice.

I meant in general Avalon, for the few months he showed some form a few seasons back.

He's back in form again now. Ready to peak around Lions time hopefully Playing for Sarries should bring on some other aspects of his game (as well as his style helping them too).

Ok RD but what about his defensive issues ? George North is a monster in attack and defence !

Edit - Sorry, just realised you were talking about Visser - ignore the below (although it's still valid!).

Ashton's defence is fine and has certainly improved. He's not the best defending winger of all time, but he's no liability.

The size of North means if he gets hold of you he's in trouble but he's not always great when he's turned and his positioning can be a bit suspect.

I'm not sure we should be picking (or discarding) wingers on the quality of their defence (unless it's diabolical).

Avalon

Is he really? Granted he is looking good at Sarries but can he translate that to int form???

21st makes a good point, Vissers real weakness is his defence (and it will be needed) but then he's not behind Ashton too much in that area, if at all.

Thats the main reason I prefer Bowe and Cuthbert above Visser, although neither are as strong as North they are stronger than Visser.

Avalon

Your right, there is time to prove youve improved but to mention Norths positioning...

He constantly gives the opposing player a very large outside shoulder knowing he'll track anyone down who attempts to take it, North is normally in total control defencively and coerces the ball carrier nicely (as long as he trusts the 13)

thebluesmancometh wrote:Avalon

Is he really? Granted he is looking good at Sarries but can he translate that to int form???

Given that Visser has no real international form or experience then the same can be levelled at him. It's not a pop at Visser, he's a fine player but largely unproven at international level. Ashton has proved he can do it, even if more recent international form hasn't been up to the heights he set a couple of years ago.

I agree with you totally Avalon, Visser as of yet is an outsider until after this AI and 6N IMO.

The question is what does Visser have to do to be considered as Lions competition?

6tries? 7 tries? 8 tries? 2 tries?
2 MOTM performances?

What is it we're all expecting?

21st...

Vissers defence needs improving but I would say it was average, as opposed to bad. He normally gets his man down, but my problem is for his size and athleticism he should be dominating in defence! He often hangs back too much for my liking and gets them down as they go past, instead of binning them into touch. I suspect that has been coached though cause all Edinburgh wingers do it.

His positioning needs improving but he'll learn fast at the too level.

As long as the best on form wingers are picked so be it.

Aye my friend he needs to take a wee leaf out of Schlong's book - did you see the hit he made on Sunday v Northampton to save a try. Took man ball corner flag and into the front row of the stand !

Yeah Shlong is definitely our best defensive winger. If you combined his defense with Visser's attack you'd have an incredible player!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Christ this thread is really doing my nut in.


The facts

Visser got injured early on in the game. This injury was clearly inhibiting his ability to run, as anyone at the game could see. He stayed on til half time to try to run it off but was subbed off because he wouldn't play on.

His injury is such that he is a doubt for this weekend.

He is rabbo top try scorer 3 years in a row. In that time Edinburgh have finished 2nd once, and near the bottom in the other 2 years. Therefore he's scoring tries in a team that hadn't regularly played well.

He scored 2 tries on his debut for Scotland

He was a key player in high pressure games in the hk last year.

Fiction

This was his chance to prove his worth and he came up short - really? Lions selection is based on the first hk game of the year? Who knew

Ashton scored, visser didn't - see previous point and info in the facts section.

He can't cut it against physical teams - he's scored tries against most teams that he's played against, including some very physical teams. Also, didn't realise australia were renowned for their physicality...



I could go on but there's no point. The ignorance on display here is getting ridiculous.

I honestly have no idea why so many people have such an issue with him? If he was Irish, welsh or English you'd be singing his praises.

Now I'm not seeing he's a guaranteed pick - he's got to prove himself in the AIs and 6n first - but some of the arguments being put forward are absolutely absurd and highly ignorant basing opinions on one game where he was injured!

Not really fiction that Ashton scored and Visser didn't. Anyone who saw the match would know that. Ashton performed well, Visser didn't - for whatever reason. Visser had an opportunity to prove to English fans in particular that he can perform against a top English side. Sure he can score in the Pro12 but does scoring in the Pro12 mean he should be a Lion's contender?

The HC is an opportunity outside the domestic leagues for players to prove themselves against sides from the other leagues at a higher level.

Visser is unproven at international level so shouldn't be considered on equal footing as players who have more experience at international level.

Please stop going on about last season's HC. Maybe the Edinburgh side like the fans have been too fixated with last season's semi final to focus on this season.

Yeah I'm sure Visser would really struggle on the wing for Saracens whilst Ashton would be running them in for fun for Edinburgh Like I've said, Visssers run them in whilst playing for a poor team in a championship that currently has the HC champions and the Grand Slam champions. Now that is real established quality

OK yes he did score, but my point was that has absolutely nothing to do with Lions selection in 7 months time!

I just really can't comprehend why people are so fixated in slamming Visser down after 40 mins where he was injured for half of it.

And why does he have to prove himself to English fans? That's a fairly arrogant point of view when Gatland is the head coach and selector....

There's a lot of Heineken and International rugby to come. Judge him after that - not after one game when he was injured.

And with regards to last year's HK run - dam straight we're going to keep going on about it! It was an incredible achievement that plenty teams out there would dream of doing. It is also a counter to the argument that he's not played well at the top level - as I said he was a key player in numerous high pressure group wins and the quarter final win.

RDW - You're wasting your breath here - save it. Most knowledgable fans from all countrys now how much of a weapon Visser is and he has a very very good chance of being on the plane come next year. Looking frward to him and Ashton at Murrayfield in a few months time