MacVisser Vs Ashton

First topic message reminder :

I think we can all agree that both of these two will be fighting for a spot in the Lions tour , injury permitting.

For those of you that watched the Sarries Vs Edinburgh game today i think you can quite easily say Ashton was a class above Macvisser who for the majority of the game was invisible in attack ( Mostly down to his forward seeing unable to get any ball) and in Defence which Edinburgh were made to do a lot of.

On the other hand Ashton scored one try with a perfect line straight through the middle of the Edinburgh Defence. Made 2 long runs down the wing ,one of which resulted in a try. And he was ever present in Defence and didn't make a bad decision all of the game.

Admittedly MacVisser had an off game but my point is when Mr Gatts and Co. Start making selections and if they are torn between Ashton and MacVisser , because of MacVissers lack of test time against 1st Class opposition how much will in his Lack of form in this European game come back to haunt him? Or does Heineken Cup (THe highest standard of Rugby in the NH) form count for very Little in terms of lion selection ?

RDW Scotland it shows Ashton is in good fo
I agree but this article is MacVisser vs Ashton and at the moment Ashton is far ahead in the pecking order.

I slam Visser because he's unproven at the highest level against the top sides of France and England.

Visser is unproven at international level.

England is part of the Lions and has a large population. Why should English fans rate him solely based on his pro12 form?

You ask us to respect a player who is largely unproven when it matters.

Sigh that's the problem then at Edinburgh. Too focussed on one good run in one particular competition one particular season. Look at the bigger picture.

Rubyguby that's very patronising. If you are going to be at least get your facts right. 2014 is the next time Scotland will face England at Murrayfield.

He has a very good chance based on what exactly? You Pro12 fans don't seem to understand Visser is still unproven.

Visser wasn't a weapon vs Saracens though was he?

To say he's unproven is also extremely patronising of the pro 12. If he was top try scorer in the AP 3 years in a row I'm sure you'd have no problem.

That would be us Pro 12 fans with the current HC and Grand Slam champs then

And again why does he need England fans to rate him to allow him to get picked? Do England fans decide who tours?

Again I'm not disagreeing with you in principle - I think we both agree he is an excellent prospect but needs to prove himself at the highest level. This is not his fault though as he has only just qualified to play at the highest level!

I just think you are being very patronising and arrogant while doing so and using one game when he was injured to highlight your points is just ignorant.

RDW_Scotland wrote:To say he's unproven is also extremely patronising of the pro 12. If he was top try scorer in the AP 3 years in a row I'm sure you'd have no problem.

I don't think he's unproven. He's a proven player domestically but he's not yet proven internationally (mostly because he hasn't had the chance yet as he's only recently become qualified and he's only young). If he continues like he is then he's got a chance of being a great international.

I'm not sure why this has to turn into a catfight where two very good players are getting criticised. It's not like it's a bad thing that the Lions have a bit of potential depth. Some very good players will be left at home.

This is becoming tiresome.

Clearly a lot of English fans don't rate Visser. Fair enough, although it has to be noted that he has had 3 international test caps. In those caps he has scored 4 tries. 2 Against England for the Baa Baa's and 2 against Fiji for Scotland.

He has also been the top try scorer in the pro12 for 3 years running and was voted the Rabo Players Player of the year last year.

Players player of the year is an accolade that is really important. The reason being the players themselves vote for who they thought was the best they have played against. Clearly the likes of Bowe, North, Cuthbert, Trimble, Stoddart, Halfpenny, Earles, Howlett, Nacewa and all those who voted for him deemed him to be the best they come up against. Beating off all competitors from all other positions including some lions certainties is surely a testament to the man's skill and strike rate?

These accolades are apparently not enough to prove himself worthy however one poor performance against Saracens when the man was clearly injured is enough to condem him?

RDW

I think Beshocked is being intentionally prickly because of the frequently unjustified stick that Ashton (who now plays for both the team and country Beshocked supports) gets. Ashton had an outstanding first 18 months of international rugby and then had something of a dip in form last year. The good news for us is he appears to be well on his way back to form and doing well the things that make him an unusual and very effective winger (plus working on his weaknesses). As such he should be very prominent in the discussions for Lions selection.

Now we have the Scottish fans hypeing Visser, who has the potential to be an outstanding player, but so far has had minimal opportunity to prove himself at international level. Yes, there's a full season of rugby to go before the Lions are picked, and if Visser is as good as you think he is, there's a very strong chance he'll make the Lions squad, but he still has to prove it over a season of international and other high class rugby (HC being the next highest level). This was his first chance, and he didn't perform wll, although with extenuating circumstances.

Similarly, Welsh fans seem to have Cuthbert as an absolute certainty, based on his form in last year's 6Ns, where he produced 2 very good performances. He needs to maintain and for me improve this form (i.e. perform with more consistency and more importantly avoid a second season dip as happened to Ashton) if he is a real Lions contender.

I've no issues with the opinion that Bowe (proven international performer over many years and outstanding last season) and North (a physical monster who has performed well for the last 2 years for Wales) are in prime position for Lions selection, assuming they maintain form and fitness, but behind them I'd put Ashton ahead for either Visser or Cuthbert based on what they have acheived so far in their respective careers.

RDW - Radge has just put it into perspective eloquently, best to leave it now mate

Rubyguby which club side got the grandslam?

RDW Scotland by your logic if you are top try scorer in your league you should be considered for the lions.

Steve Hanley was a prolific try scorer in the AP. Never got a look in at international level.

Rob Miller scored 10 tries in the AP - top try scorer.He's probably not even 4th choice full back for England.

Btw I am not saying Visser is a bad player. To score that amount of tries in the Pro12 is of course very good but if he wants to be in the Lions as a contender he's got to perform in the HC for Edinburgh and for Scotland in the internationals.

About the Edinburgh-Saracens game - it's not a good start for Visser trying to win over hearts and minds but it's one game true.

Plenty of time for Visser though.

Yeah, I'm not sure what Wales winning a Grandslam has got to do with Visser being a better player than Ashton.

I'm sure there's some logic in there somewhere.

dummy_half wrote:RDW

I think Beshocked is being intentionally prickly because of the frequently unjustified stick that Ashton (who now plays for both the team and country Beshocked supports) gets. Ashton had an outstanding first 18 months of international rugby and then had something of a dip in form last year. The good news for us is he appears to be well on his way back to form and doing well the things that make him an unusual and very effective winger (plus working on his weaknesses). As such he should be very prominent in the discussions for Lions selection.

Now we have the Scottish fans hypeing Visser, who has the potential to be an outstanding player, but so far has had minimal opportunity to prove himself at international level. Yes, there's a full season of rugby to go before the Lions are picked, and if Visser is as good as you think he is, there's a very strong chance he'll make the Lions squad, but he still has to prove it over a season of international and other high class rugby (HC being the next highest level). This was his first chance, and he didn't perform wll, although with extenuating circumstances.

Similarly, Welsh fans seem to have Cuthbert as an absolute certainty, based on his form in last year's 6Ns, where he produced 2 very good performances. He needs to maintain and for me improve this form (i.e. perform with more consistency and more importantly avoid a second season dip as happened to Ashton) if he is a real Lions contender.

I've no issues with the opinion that Bowe (proven international performer over many years and outstanding last season) and North (a physical monster who has performed well for the last 2 years for Wales) are in prime position for Lions selection, assuming they maintain form and fitness, but behind them I'd put Ashton ahead for either Visser or Cuthbert based on what they have acheived so far in their respective careers.

Dummy half spot on.

I'm out.

Well done RDW, you're never gonna convince Ashton's mother and sister any other way

Don't worry RDW - this was a WUMtastic OP from the beginning.

We've done Visser to death on these boards (this one being the most recent: https://www.606v2.com/t34737p50-shane-williams-for-the-lions)and some people will simply never agree that he's quality until he has played a full international season.

It's a completely circular argument, of course, because Visser could not have played internationally until this year and has played every match available to him for which he was eligible, scoring a try per game and 2 for the BaBas in the England match. On paper, this makes him a better player than, say, Ugo Monye who played for England 13 times and only scored once. The telling thing is that the goalposts change all the time when comparing Visser with others - no surer sign of nakedly weak arguments.

The fact is that Gatland's job is to play the guys that show the most signs of scoring against the Wallabies. Ashton will be a safe pair of hands and will travel if he can continue with Sarries in this form. Bowe has Lions experience and will run in a truckload if Ulster continues to give him Rolls Royce ball. North has already scored 5 this season and looks sharp.

It will all come down to internationals and 6N for most people - the only games that some of the people on these boards clearly watch.

Ruby, out of interest, why the incessant ' ' ?

It's my trademark - I have the copyright thing on it Bluestone

George Carlin wrote:It's a completely circular argument, of course, because Visser could not have played internationally until this year and has played every match available to him for which he was eligible, scoring a try per game and 2 for the BaBas in the England match. On paper, this makes him a better player than, say, Ugo Monye who played for England 13 times and only scored once. The telling thing is that the goalposts change all the time when comparing Visser with others - no surer sign of nakedly weak arguments.

Monye was top scorer with 5 tries on the last Lions tour. Not bad credentials

Monye was top scorer with 5 tries on the last Lions tour. Not bad credentials

That's what happens when a winger recieves the ball in space with good support

RubyGuby wrote:It's my trademark - I have the copyright thing on it Bluestone

Haha, fair enough. I might start finishing my posts with

RubyGuby wrote:Monye was top scorer with 5 tries on the last Lions tour. Not bad credentials

That's what happens when a winger recieves the ball in space with good support

That's known as effective rugby. Get the ball to the winger, score a try

It was actually a bit of a joke to go along with some of the other comments here.

Mine too

RubyGuby wrote:Monye was top scorer with 5 tries on the last Lions tour. Not bad credentials

That's what happens when a winger recieves the ball in space with good support

And if we'd actually won the series, that would be a fully fledged b@stard of a good point.

Btw I know Visser is a very good winger. Maybe I don't give him enough credit. I just personally want to see more from him. I was expecting him to prove me wrong in the Saracens game. I want to see what you Pro12 guys see.

If Visser performs in the Ais and 6 nations I will be the first to say. Fair play - you've got what it takes to get on the plane for the Lions.

Avalon very interesting. Monye as a dark horse?

Still can't believe we didn't win it

Can I put the mix in and say Visser has never really done it v Glasgow

Don't know about Visser but have watched Ashton a fair bit.

Ash is superb in a dominant team playing with good quality ball. He is equally just as flaky in a team under pressure and going backwards. In fact he is a very weak tackler when up against the best in the world.

In most respects he is a bit like Varndell. Good/excellent going forward but rubbish when under the cosh. His defence of the high ball and his kicking out of hand are also pretty below par for a test winger.

If I was SL I'd be much more interested in a player like Monye. He's a much more rounded test winger.

viewtothegym wrote:Ashton wouldn't get near the Welsh squad with North and Cuthbert, whom may i add will be the test wingers for the Lions tour.

Didn't know you were on the squad selection panel with Gats & co view. Congrats...

I agree about Ashton....in England's heyday pre 2003 when they played a brilliant brand of offload rugby he woudl have been deadly but the fact is England remain so troubled in the centres that the opportunity for Ashton to take ball at pace is rare.

Regards Monye...so he seemed to disappear after a poor Lions 09 ....WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM AND WHY IS HE NOW BACK IN FAVOUR?

Both Aston and Visser are excellent and some of the best wingers in the George North. I personally think Visser has more strings to his Tommy Bowe though.

All the above will travel.

George Carlin wrote:Don't worry RDW - this was a WUMtastic OP from the beginning.

I fail to see how my OP is a wum ? I simply asked how or if that hienekin cup game is going to affect Visser or Ashton's chances of being selected for the Lions ?

All that's been done here is people have expressed their different views and disagreed , I've enjoyed watching this thread and reading the different arguments.

What would 606v2 be is we all agreed

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Can I put the mix in and say Visser has never really done it v Glasgow

Scored twice in the away leg of the 1872 against us

mowgli wrote:I agree about Ashton....in England's heyday pre 2003 when they played a brilliant brand of offload rugby he woudl have been deadly but the fact is England remain so troubled in the centres that the opportunity for Ashton to take ball at pace is rare.

Regards Monye...so he seemed to disappear after a poor Lions 09 ....WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM AND WHY IS HE NOW BACK IN FAVOUR?

First paragraph - it's back to our long-discussed failure to find an adequate replacement for Will Greenwood. Would be good to see Ashton playing with midfield backs that had such good ability to create a bit of space. Ashton may not have the most devastating sidestep (although he is better than some credit), but he obviously runs good lines and has plenty of gas and isn't lacknig power.

Second para - Monye. MJ picked him at full back for a test and totally destroyed his confidence. He always had the physical attributes to be a very good international winger, but it's taken quite some time to recover from both the performance and subsequent media slating.

And he's now back in favour because he's playing rather well for his Club

As I Scotsman, I totally agree that it is far too soon to be putting McVisser on the plane, and we Scots should take a chill pill and leave off it for a while - as this is exactly the same sort of behaviour we ridicual in other nations when they hype up their player before they have proved themself in the International arena

He has been great in the league - but has not played enough internationals to be proven at International level - fingers crossed he will do

And to highlight my point, I will bring in a member of the Scotland squad who consistently plays excellent rugby in the league and is often hyped up, but has so far not taken the step up you would expect (for many reasons)

Yes NDL

League performance does not always mean International performance

So lets cool it for now, and wait (hopefully a short time) until he proves it

Poor Nick DeLuca.

Everytime he has played for Scotland it's been out of position (at 12) or with big numpties like Sean Lamont or Graeme Morrison at 12.

You could have Conrad Smith or BOD outside those 2 and they would look rubbish.

It's only been in the last 3 games that DeLuca has had creative guys playing at 12 to supply him with good ball.

I do agree with some of what you say though Risky, Visser is to an extent unproven at inernational level. He has however proven himself numerous time at the only levels that have been open to him.

The AI's and the 6N will be the acid tests but I feel he'll step up well into the international stage.

RR - NDL is certainly one that could open up a new thread (and has been done so before)

Both him and Visser need to prove themselves in the AI and 6 nations - both for different reasons

Fingers crossed they can

mowgli wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

mowgli wrote:I agree; i see the following as very probable

1/2 - versatility and boot
Bowe - Lions experience
Cuthbert - form
North - because he is so big
Visser - dependant on a good Autumn and excellent 6 Nations

Gatland likes his big wingers and of course this is all dependant on 6Ns perfs but I can really see Ashton and especially foden missing out.

I don't doubt that this is a probable selection, or that they may deserve to go. But i think it would be a massive mistake.

If there's one team that can make big burly backs look utterly pedestrian, it's Oz. You think you'll steamroller them, but it never happens, they're too wily.

All those guys aside from Halfpenny are powerful wingers, but none are either out and out pace or offer guile and trickery. That's not to criticise them, or to suggest they're leaden footed or anything, but there's no variety and against Oz's speedsters and tricksters, I'd worry they'd be shown up. I'd take Ashton for the pace, providing he shows some form.

I jsut don't think gats has it in him...he has spent years reinventing wales, changing their style and bringing in huge backs....Shane aside the Welsh backline has been getting bigger and bigger....and while i agree iwth you that you cannot steamroller the aussies I think that is the route he will take.

Aside from Ashton who do you think deserves a look for pace and guile?

I'm not sure I have an answer for that mowgli! I think if Gats picks a team with backs to steamroller them he'll need the pack to absolutely muller them and nullify Pocock, otherwise we'll get quick ball out to backs without the out and out pace to exploit it. I guess we'll be going over them more than around them!

You're right, i honestly can't think of a winger that fits the bill other than Wade but he's clearly, and rightly, miles down the pecking order. Even Ashton is more of a 'good lines and support and good pace' than a Shane like magician.

The North/Cuthbert combination may do well out there but perhaps it needs an elusive running FB alongside it, maybe that's the way to fix any concerns over a lack of variety. Foden, Kearney? I like the idea of Halfpenny at FB, as much for his boot, and i know he's a good runner, but I think an FB more focused on running may benefit North and Cuthbert.

A bit off topic, but I read a lot about Halfpenny being in the team due to his boot, and I'm not so sure that it is that relevant.

If the favourite for the 10 spot is Sexton atm, then personally I would have no issues with him taking the kicks at goal, I don't think its ever been seen as a weakness has it?

Would rather see the best players in the back 3, then worry about goal kicking later

Sexton didnt have the best WC in terms of goal kicking. However, many 10s appeared to struggle with the boot becuase of the ball type or for whatever reason. Sexton's kicking stats in general though are excellent.