Barry John talking about the Lions -' At this moment I would say England will be the nucleus of the squad'

First topic message reminder :

The squad selected for 2013 will be the players in form, whatever nationality they are.

Warren won’t be affected by nationality and he will have a criteria that he will want from his players.

People talk about the last time the Lions were in Australia with Graham Henry and how he picked too many Welsh players.

There was confusion in selection but I think Warren is too shrewd to fall into that trap.

There could be a record number of Welsh players on the tour because there are more players selected for a tour. But that is only if they are performing at the time.

At this moment I would say England will be the nucleus of the squad and maybe even the spine of the team.

It will be the Six Nations when every match will become an unofficial Lions trial because every British and Irish player will want to go on that tour and get one over on their opposite number. The Lions auditions will start with the autumn internationals but this will be early days.

Wales will have a more pressing situation as they look to finish in the top four of the IRB world rankings at the end of the year in order to gain the best draw for the World Cup in 2015.

Rob Howley will be in charge for the opening couple of matches where they face Argentina first.

Wales will hope the Pumas are tired after the end of their first southern hemisphere Rugby Championship campaign.

But it could swing the other way because Argentina will have been together for a long time.

Samoa will be no mugs and if you just go back a year they perhaps could and should have beaten Wales and knocked them out of the World Cup if it had not been for a bit of magic from Leigh Halfpenny.

Wales have to start these two matches well before they face the two big southern hemisphere superpowers Australia and New Zealand and look for that elusive scalp when Gatland will be back in charge.

Home advantage will hopefully help and Wales are a competitive side now.

But they still have a tendency to give away silly penalties at crucial times and they lose concentration for five or 10 minutes and get punished.

New Zealand and Australia don’t drop their guard and you could see that on the summer tour where Wales lost three Tests to the Wallabies to the combined total of 11 points.

One key player who Wales were missing Down Under was Lions centre Jamie Roberts and it was great to see him back in action and scoring last weekend for the Blues.

Jamie has been in the headlines because his regional contract is up at the end of the season and he has been linked with a move to France.

As a player, Jamie has to go overseas and the regions can’t compare with their French rivals.

Jamie has no option because he is an intelligent young man and once he has all his medical certificates he can go over there for three or four years.

The life of a top rugby player is getting shorter with all the physical demands and the top stars need to maximise their potential.

I was approached by an Italian club when I was playing but back in those days the power base was Wales and any international ambitions you did have you had to be around here.

I would not criticise any player for going to France in fact I would applaud it because they have to have earned the right.

I would not be worried about Jamie. I would be more worried about players like George North and Alex Cuthbert going after him.

We are now a breeding ground for the French clubs because the regions can’t compete with the Euro because there is no money in the kitty.

We are still finding out the outcome of this review but I think it is a waste of time and money because there is nothing they can tell us that will change the situation and the pot of money won’t increase.

Welsh rugby supporters just have to accept that now.'


Some interesting comments there.

blackcanelion wrote:

mowgli wrote: I suppose after RWC 2011 and the slam this year we expected wales to kick on which they have quite clearly failed to do. I expect we will have a much better idea in about 2 months

Huh? I'm guessing you picked them to beat Australia. I think they have kicked on. I think they were better than at the world cup. They are now seen by many teams and punters as a genuine threat. The 3 losses in australia were up there with their best ever away results against the sh giants. It's consistent competitive performances losses against a top table team away from home. I'm not sure if Wales would have ever been able to do that before, even in the golden eras (Australia weren't a top table team until the 80's).

I'm interested to see if they can continue the improvement. This means being competitive in the autumn and 6 nations. They have to hold the standard and improve it if possible. Ultimately they will be a better team if they can be consistently competitive rather than winning the occasional game. I think they took a significant step in June.

No Welsh fan would share your optimism at this point, I think most are sceptical about Gatland's little Lions jaunt and nervous that Howley could preside over an Autumn horribilis.... we are about to face a freshly blooded Argentina who will push us, we traditionally drop our pants to Samoa and NZ will do their usual job...meanwhile the key game is v Aus and must lead to a convincing home win. Fail to win 3/4 this Autumn and we are in fact going in reverse; however due to the rollercoaster that is Welsh rugby, a bad autumn may predict yet another slam

mowgli wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

mowgli wrote: I suppose after RWC 2011 and the slam this year we expected wales to kick on which they have quite clearly failed to do. I expect we will have a much better idea in about 2 months

Huh? I'm guessing you picked them to beat Australia. I think they have kicked on. I think they were better than at the world cup. They are now seen by many teams and punters as a genuine threat. The 3 losses in australia were up there with their best ever away results against the sh giants. It's consistent competitive performances losses against a top table team away from home. I'm not sure if Wales would have ever been able to do that before, even in the golden eras (Australia weren't a top table team until the 80's).

I'm interested to see if they can continue the improvement. This means being competitive in the autumn and 6 nations. They have to hold the standard and improve it if possible. Ultimately they will be a better team if they can be consistently competitive rather than winning the occasional game. I think they took a significant step in June.

No Welsh fan would share your optimism at this point, I think most are sceptical about Gatland's little Lions jaunt and nervous that Howley could preside over an Autumn horribilis.... we are about to face a freshly blooded Argentina who will push us, we traditionally drop our pants to Samoa and NZ will do their usual job...meanwhile the key game is v Aus and must lead to a convincing home win. Fail to win 3/4 this Autumn and we are in fact going in reverse; however due to the rollercoaster that is Welsh rugby, a bad autumn may predict yet another slam

Rubbish.

I certainly agree with BC. Wales have had a steady progression over the last 18 months since the 2011 Six Nations. Good influx of new players filling the spots of the older and out of form, a RWC Semi Final, another Grand Slam of the NH and more genuine competition for places all over the squad.

I was absolutely devastated with the three narrow losses in Oz but I was happy to see us playing on an even level with the Australians for the first time in thirty years.

I would say looking at the AI's that the Welsh squad and public are expectant of wins and rightfully so. We are very competitive we have a great deal to look forward to.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

The last Lions tour was near 4 years ago now, there's been a world cup since, and frankly, the Lions lost all of the tours in living memory, so it's not something you really want to be claiming as some kind of pedigree.

Ahem - speak for yourself, young fella......did you only start watching rugby when you turned 18?

1971 (NZ), 1974 (SA), 1989 (Aus), and 1997 (SA)...... each captained by a different Home Nations player - Dawes, McBride, Calder & Johnson

maestegmafia wrote:

mowgli wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

mowgli wrote: I suppose after RWC 2011 and the slam this year we expected wales to kick on which they have quite clearly failed to do. I expect we will have a much better idea in about 2 months

Huh? I'm guessing you picked them to beat Australia. I think they have kicked on. I think they were better than at the world cup. They are now seen by many teams and punters as a genuine threat. The 3 losses in australia were up there with their best ever away results against the sh giants. It's consistent competitive performances losses against a top table team away from home. I'm not sure if Wales would have ever been able to do that before, even in the golden eras (Australia weren't a top table team until the 80's).

I'm interested to see if they can continue the improvement. This means being competitive in the autumn and 6 nations. They have to hold the standard and improve it if possible. Ultimately they will be a better team if they can be consistently competitive rather than winning the occasional game. I think they took a significant step in June.

No Welsh fan would share your optimism at this point, I think most are sceptical about Gatland's little Lions jaunt and nervous that Howley could preside over an Autumn horribilis.... we are about to face a freshly blooded Argentina who will push us, we traditionally drop our pants to Samoa and NZ will do their usual job...meanwhile the key game is v Aus and must lead to a convincing home win. Fail to win 3/4 this Autumn and we are in fact going in reverse; however due to the rollercoaster that is Welsh rugby, a bad autumn may predict yet another slam

Rubbish.

I certainly agree with BC. Wales have had a steady progression over the last 18 months since the 2011 Six Nations. Good influx of new players filling the spots of the older and out of form, a RWC Semi Final, another Grand Slam of the NH and more genuine competition for places all over the squad.

I was absolutely devastated with the three narrow losses in Oz but I was happy to see us playing on an even level with the Australians for the first time in thirty years.

I would say looking at the AI's that the Welsh squad and public are expectant of wins and rightfully so. We are very competitive we have a great deal to look forward to.

And as a fair dinkum Englishman...i would agree with you in that statement...and i think once the first victory finally comes...more will follow quickly...

I reckon it will be something like the following..

15 Halfpenny
14 North
13 Davies
12 Roberts
11 Visser
10 Sexton
9 Phillips

8 SOB
7 Warburton
6 Ferris
5 POC
4 Gray
3 Jones
2 Hartley
1 Healy

7 Welsh, 5 Irish, 1 Scot, 1 English and 1 Dutch! Robshaw, Morgan, Flood, Ashton, Tuilagi, Cole, Corbisero, Foden, Care, Youngs etc all have a good chance of making the team from England. BOD, Heaslip, Bowe, Kearney and Murray have a chance for Ireland. Ross, Hogg, Denton have a chance for Scotland. Biggar, AW Jones, Ryan Jones, Cuthbert, Lydiate, Tuperic etc have a chance for Wales. Theres loads of more names I can't think of..

It makes more sense to have a Welsh backbone since they'll probably play the Welsh way. I also think they'll be looking at players who are more suited to the way they want to play rather than picking the best players.

Theres a whole 6 nations to come so other players will be putting their hands up for selection. That and injuries will make the team picked a bit different.

profitius wrote:I reckon it will be something like the following..

15 Halfpenny
14 North
13 Davies
12 Roberts
11 Visser
10 Sexton
9 Phillips

8 SOB
7 Warburton
6 Ferris
5 POC
4 Gray
3 Jones
2 Hartley
1 Healy

7 Welsh, 5 Irish, 1 Scot, 1 English and 1 Dutch! Robshaw, Morgan, Flood, Ashton, Tuilagi, Cole, Corbisero, Foden, Care, Youngs etc all have a good chance of making the team from England. BOD, Heaslip, Bowe, Kearney and Murray have a chance for Ireland. Ross, Hogg, Denton have a chance for Scotland. Biggar, AW Jones, Ryan Jones, Cuthbert, Lydiate, Tuperic etc have a chance for Wales. Theres loads of more names I can't think of..

It makes more sense to have a Welsh backbone since they'll probably play the Welsh way. I also think they'll be looking at players who are more suited to the way they want to play rather than picking the best players.

Theres a whole 6 nations to come so other players will be putting their hands up for selection. That and injuries will make the team picked a bit different.

Or we could say that is not the way as they lost every game...whereas playing a SA style game with Scots, Irish and English players would see a Lions victory....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

profitius wrote:I reckon it will be something like the following..

15 Halfpenny
14 North
13 Davies
12 Roberts
11 Visser
10 Sexton
9 Phillips

8 SOB
7 Warburton
6 Ferris
5 POC
4 Gray
3 Jones
2 Hartley
1 Healy

7 Welsh, 5 Irish, 1 Scot, 1 English and 1 Dutch! Robshaw, Morgan, Flood, Ashton, Tuilagi, Cole, Corbisero, Foden, Care, Youngs etc all have a good chance of making the team from England. BOD, Heaslip, Bowe, Kearney and Murray have a chance for Ireland. Ross, Hogg, Denton have a chance for Scotland. Biggar, AW Jones, Ryan Jones, Cuthbert, Lydiate, Tuperic etc have a chance for Wales. Theres loads of more names I can't think of..

It makes more sense to have a Welsh backbone since they'll probably play the Welsh way. I also think they'll be looking at players who are more suited to the way they want to play rather than picking the best players.

Theres a whole 6 nations to come so other players will be putting their hands up for selection. That and injuries will make the team picked a bit different.

Or we could say that is not the way as they lost every game...whereas playing a SA style game with Scots, Irish and English players would see a Lions victory....

The new Welsh way I should have said

They'll try to beat the Wallabies with power. Smash them up, dominate the set pieces and launch their big runners at the Wallabies. Its a South African gameplan alright! Simple but effective and they have the possibility of playing a more expansive game.

To be honest, I would be surprised if the Lions don't win. The Aussies can never be written off. However, they are missing loads of players now and are very weak but they've so many injuries because of the longer super rugby season. They've 5 super rugby teams and its too many. They'll have a key injuries when they play the Lions too. They'll have to wrap their players in cotton wool.

Write the Aussies off at our peril...

We have to play a power game...but we have to play it smart. The Aussies will defend straight forward running all day long.....we need to smash them in the scrum...and we need our powerhouse back rowers and backs hitting the angles right - players like Ashton should be considered for this reason, imagine him running off the shoulders of the likes of Richie Gray, SOB, Roberts...

I think the key is protecting the big guys when they go on their smashing runs - recycling fast and clean by clearing out the rucks - that's where we'll win or lose the game!

I'm a Wales supporter, older than Barry John, and know from regularly watching him live and his exploits in New Zealand in 1971 that he was the best outside-half of his era (late 1960s/very early 1970s).

But he's proved to be a poor rugby pundit, out of touch with the team and management disciplines of the modern era, since the 1980s, really. Perhaps the reason lies in the kind of player he was.

He was an instinctive, supremely off the-cuff-player who could ghost through unseen gaps and land a tactical kick on a sixpence. He also had an excellent rugby brain which functioned brilliantly during matches, especially when to bring others into play. On the other hand, training sessions were boring and game plans were anathema to his approach.

Barry John was so relaxed he could sleep just before a big game and run on to the field unconcerned about the opposition, whoever they were, confident that the backs, taking their cues from him, would find a way to win however the game developed. (Campese drew headlines for showing a flippant attitude to the mighty All Blacks 20 years after Barry John did so - but as a wing or full-back Campo wasn't expected to manage the backs like an outside-half).

Such an individual as Barry John is unlikely to have much empathy with today's international rugby players. I'm not sure that he did even back in 1971! But what a terrific player he was!

maestegmafia wrote:

mowgli wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

mowgli wrote: I suppose after RWC 2011 and the slam this year we expected wales to kick on which they have quite clearly failed to do. I expect we will have a much better idea in about 2 months

Huh? I'm guessing you picked them to beat Australia. I think they have kicked on. I think they were better than at the world cup. They are now seen by many teams and punters as a genuine threat. The 3 losses in australia were up there with their best ever away results against the sh giants. It's consistent competitive performances losses against a top table team away from home. I'm not sure if Wales would have ever been able to do that before, even in the golden eras (Australia weren't a top table team until the 80's).

I'm interested to see if they can continue the improvement. This means being competitive in the autumn and 6 nations. They have to hold the standard and improve it if possible. Ultimately they will be a better team if they can be consistently competitive rather than winning the occasional game. I think they took a significant step in June.

No Welsh fan would share your optimism at this point, I think most are sceptical about Gatland's little Lions jaunt and nervous that Howley could preside over an Autumn horribilis.... we are about to face a freshly blooded Argentina who will push us, we traditionally drop our pants to Samoa and NZ will do their usual job...meanwhile the key game is v Aus and must lead to a convincing home win. Fail to win 3/4 this Autumn and we are in fact going in reverse; however due to the rollercoaster that is Welsh rugby, a bad autumn may predict yet another slam

Rubbish.

I certainly agree with BC. Wales have had a steady progression over the last 18 months since the 2011 Six Nations. Good influx of new players filling the spots of the older and out of form, a RWC Semi Final, another Grand Slam of the NH and more genuine competition for places all over the squad.

I was absolutely devastated with the three narrow losses in Oz but I was happy to see us playing on an even level with the Australians for the first time in thirty years.

I would say looking at the AI's that the Welsh squad and public are expectant of wins and rightfully so. We are very competitive we have a great deal to look forward to.

maes consider yourself tarred, feathered and sent on a weekend in Port Talbot.

What's rubbish?

That Arg will push us and could win?

That we could just as easily lose to Samoa as beat them?...not like we have done that before when a win was almost expected is it?

That NZ will probably put 30 points on us....i was at the centenary game...black shirts were appropriate

That after 5 (F I V E ) straight losses to Aus there may not be room on the pitch due to the rather large white elephant sitting on the 22

That we have injuries across the squad, regional meltdown and an absent manager playing Lions coach and another coach whose name sounds like Howler? Meanwhile Roger Lewis is counting his wedge and all is well?

Optimistic....bugger that. I have learned self preservation and like many other Welshmen maes, you know in that tiny little place in your head where you don't go too often because it drives you absofeckinglutely mental, that Wales other favourite sport is rugby-rollercoastering and we could just as easily implode and go 4-0 this autumn then win another glorious slam come the spring

god help us all

I agree and I don't share Black Cenalion's optimism. It's okay to expect, and I do expect to be beating 3 teams this autumn. But that doesn't mean I do not think we could easily lose all 4 aswell. Arg are looking very good, and will be match fit when they arrive in Wales while we may be rusty. Samoa are an unknown atm. The All Blacks are on another level and for the love of god just beat Australia this time.

optimist wrote:I'm a Wales supporter, older than Barry John, and know from regularly watching him live and his exploits in New Zealand in 1971 that he was the best outside-half of his era (late 1960s/very early 1970s).

But he's proved to be a poor rugby pundit, out of touch with the team and management disciplines of the modern era, since the 1980s, really. Perhaps the reason lies in the kind of player he was.

He was an instinctive, supremely off the-cuff-player who could ghost through unseen gaps and land a tactical kick on a sixpence. He also had an excellent rugby brain which functioned brilliantly during matches, especially when to bring others into play. On the other hand, training sessions were boring and game plans were anathema to his approach.

Barry John was so relaxed he could sleep just before a big game and run on to the field unconcerned about the opposition, whoever they were, confident that the backs, taking their cues from him, would find a way to win however the game developed. (Campese drew headlines for showing a flippant attitude to the mighty All Blacks 20 years after Barry John did so - but as a wing or full-back Campo wasn't expected to manage the backs like an outside-half).

Such an individual as Barry John is unlikely to have much empathy with today's international rugby players. I'm not sure that he did even back in 1971! But what a terrific player he was!

what he said
my gran is a better pundit and she wets the bed

mowgli wrote:

optimist wrote:I'm a Wales supporter, older than Barry John, and know from regularly watching him live and his exploits in New Zealand in 1971 that he was the best outside-half of his era (late 1960s/very early 1970s).

But he's proved to be a poor rugby pundit, out of touch with the team and management disciplines of the modern era, since the 1980s, really. Perhaps the reason lies in the kind of player he was.

He was an instinctive, supremely off the-cuff-player who could ghost through unseen gaps and land a tactical kick on a sixpence. He also had an excellent rugby brain which functioned brilliantly during matches, especially when to bring others into play. On the other hand, training sessions were boring and game plans were anathema to his approach.

Barry John was so relaxed he could sleep just before a big game and run on to the field unconcerned about the opposition, whoever they were, confident that the backs, taking their cues from him, would find a way to win however the game developed. (Campese drew headlines for showing a flippant attitude to the mighty All Blacks 20 years after Barry John did so - but as a wing or full-back Campo wasn't expected to manage the backs like an outside-half).

Such an individual as Barry John is unlikely to have much empathy with today's international rugby players. I'm not sure that he did even back in 1971! But what a terrific player he was!

what he said
my gran is a better pundit and she wets the bed

Maybe his relaxed attitude allows a bit of honesty instead of national bias? Just a thought & I for one will give the great man that compliment!

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

mowgli wrote:

optimist wrote:I'm a Wales supporter, older than Barry John, and know from regularly watching him live and his exploits in New Zealand in 1971 that he was the best outside-half of his era (late 1960s/very early 1970s).

But he's proved to be a poor rugby pundit, out of touch with the team and management disciplines of the modern era, since the 1980s, really. Perhaps the reason lies in the kind of player he was.

He was an instinctive, supremely off the-cuff-player who could ghost through unseen gaps and land a tactical kick on a sixpence. He also had an excellent rugby brain which functioned brilliantly during matches, especially when to bring others into play. On the other hand, training sessions were boring and game plans were anathema to his approach.

Barry John was so relaxed he could sleep just before a big game and run on to the field unconcerned about the opposition, whoever they were, confident that the backs, taking their cues from him, would find a way to win however the game developed. (Campese drew headlines for showing a flippant attitude to the mighty All Blacks 20 years after Barry John did so - but as a wing or full-back Campo wasn't expected to manage the backs like an outside-half).

Such an individual as Barry John is unlikely to have much empathy with today's international rugby players. I'm not sure that he did even back in 1971! But what a terrific player he was!

what he said
my gran is a better pundit and she wets the bed

Maybe his relaxed attitude allows a bit of honesty instead of national bias? Just a thought & I for one will give the great man that compliment!

So many great players make poor pundits.

Take Zinzan Brooke for instance, who Skysports persisted with for a painful year of what must have been THE most watertight contract of all time, or the threat of physical violence, or that he'd strap on a pair of boots and drop-kick England out of the next world cup if they didn't let him on TV in a suit. Murray Mexted is another one. Lawrence Dallaglio, but at least he can string a sentence together. Jiffy talks a lot but says absolutely nothing of interest. And have you ever tried to read Richard Loe's newspaper column?? Apparently Christian Cullen can't string a sentence together and can't tell the difference between rugby and hockey if he isn't playing. That's what I heard. Then there's Ian Smith. Fine cricketer in his day, secure behind a sausage roll evidently, but can't differentiating Thierry Dussatoir from Thiery Henry even after 80 minutes of watching him put in a man of the match performance.

Yes it is very frustrating trying to understand some 'pundits' especially those whose written language varies from being almost Shakespearean in their syntactical structure on one day and then the next, apparently for effect in an attempt to disguise their identity, reverts to pseudo-latino pulp fiction the next.....know what I mean?

Yes, But remember most of Eddie Butlers pre-match speeches are scripted.

oh, that's what you do in your spare time is it

Big difference between pundits that appear regularly on tv as paid individuals & one off interviews seeking honest views.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Big difference between pundits that appear regularly on tv as paid individuals & one off interviews seeking honest views.

Barry John has had a regular pitch in the western mail for a very long time. It's a ghost written column. Sadly the most fascinating thing about it is that they kept him interested long enough to get any material anymore.

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Big difference between pundits that appear regularly on tv as paid individuals & one off interviews seeking honest views.

Barry John has had a regular pitch in the western mail for a very long time. It's a ghost written column. Sadly the most fascinating thing about it is that they kept him interested long enough to get any material anymore.

Sorry to hear so many Welsh knockers of Barry John. But I guess he doesn't always say what they want to hear?

Criticism is healthy sometimes. On this occasion I think he was right. Welsh rugby (cup is always half full) supporters will always think otherwise.

Following up my comments on Barry John's abilities as a player but shortcomings as a pundit, a couple of my own son's experiences may underline the point.

At the age of 10, in 1980, he didn't know who Barry John was. Over the local park, the uncle of one of my son's friends asked if he could join them in a rugby kick-about. He was in street clothes, wearing slip-on shoes.

My son came home and couldn't stop talking about the fantastic kicking of his friend's Uncle Barry. This guy had made the ball land wherever the boys asked him - drop kicks, punts, place kicks - on the cross-bar, on the top of each post, on a bit of paper in the distance, even on targets behind him only briefly glanced at.

| asked my son if he'd heard Uncle Barry's surname. Was his name Barry John? That's right, said my son, still unaware.

The other experience came about 5 years later, in the mid-1980s, when my son was in his school's under-15s. Barry John wrote a piece in the paper, I can't remember if it was the Western Mail, saying that he'd rather watch good-quality schoolboy rugby than a senior game.

To illustrate this Barry John reported on two matches he'd recently seen, one a senior club game and the other a schoolboy match. It was clear that the latter involved my son's under-15s side. Allowing for the differences in physical strength and speed, and some skills, he preferred to watch the honesty, endeavour and, above all, the spontaneity of the schoolboys.

It's an interesting viewpoint, which seemed to say a lot about Barry John's approach to rugby - written over 25 years ago - but not one which would earn many marks as a pundit on modern professional rugby.

optimist wrote:Following up my comments on Barry John's abilities as a player but shortcomings as a pundit, a couple of my own son's experiences may underline the point.

At the age of 10, in 1980, he didn't know who Barry John was. Over the local park, the uncle of one of my son's friends asked if he could join them in a rugby kick-about. He was in street clothes, wearing slip-on shoes.

My son came home and couldn't stop talking about the fantastic kicking of his friend's Uncle Barry. This guy had made the ball land wherever the boys asked him - drop kicks, punts, place kicks - on the cross-bar, on the top of each post, on a bit of paper in the distance, even on targets behind him only briefly glanced at.

| asked my son if he'd heard Uncle Barry's surname. Was his name Barry John? That's right, said my son, still unaware.

The other experience came about 5 years later, in the mid-1980s, when my son was in his school's under-15s. Barry John wrote a piece in the paper, I can't remember if it was the Western Mail, saying that he'd rather watch good-quality schoolboy rugby than a senior game.

To illustrate this Barry John reported on two matches he'd recently seen, one a senior club game and the other a schoolboy match. It was clear that the latter involved my son's under-15s side. Allowing for the differences in physical strength and speed, and some skills, he preferred to watch the honesty, endeavour and, above all, the spontaneity of the schoolboys.

It's an interesting viewpoint, which seemed to say a lot about Barry John's approach to rugby - written over 25 years ago - but not one which would earn many marks as a pundit on modern professional rugby.

Yes very interesting!
Some things are innate and can't be taught. I think in the amateur era those talents were more easily exploited but in the professional era all (well nearly!)players are fit and coached in defensive patterns to limit the maverick who is just naturally gifted & in days gone by could have waltzed around the opposition before pausing to put the ball under the posts.

optimist wrote:... This guy had made the ball land wherever the boys asked him - drop kicks, punts, place kicks - on the cross-bar, on the top of each post, on a bit of paper in the distance, even on targets behind him only briefly glanced at....

Oh come on please. This is hyperbole of the most profound order.

... he preferred to watch the honesty, endeavour and, above all, the spontaneity of the schoolboys.

... And that is the case for the defense, your honour.

great analysis thanks AWOP

anotherworldofpain wrote:

optimist wrote:... This guy had made the ball land wherever the boys asked him - drop kicks, punts, place kicks - on the cross-bar, on the top of each post, on a bit of paper in the distance, even on targets behind him only briefly glanced at....

Oh come on please. This is hyperbole of the most profound order.

... he preferred to watch the honesty, endeavour and, above all, the spontaneity of the schoolboys.

... And that is the case for the defense, your honour.

If my account was hyperbole of the most profound order, I'd say your response was sarcasm laid on with a trowel.

I didn't say those kicks by Barry John were performed during a match but on a parks pitch with a group of kids - no game pressure then. Having watched the bloke play for Cardiff with Gareth Edwards for about 5 seasons, I rate him as the most accurate and intelligent out-of-hand kicker of all the international No. 10s I've seen up to the present day.

Fly-halves of John's era generally were better drop-kickers and punters of the ball, with a bigger variety of kicks, than nowadays - partly because they had more time, of course, especially in normal club games and particularly in the local park! Defensively they were nowhere near as good as today, but don't belittle the skills that some of them had just because it was a long time ago.

As for the sentiments he expressed in the newspaper piece I mentioned - well, I read it, so no more to say!

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Big difference between pundits that appear regularly on tv as paid individuals & one off interviews seeking honest views.

Barry John has had a regular pitch in the western mail for a very long time. It's a ghost written column. Sadly the most fascinating thing about it is that they kept him interested long enough to get any material anymore.

Sorry to hear so many Welsh knockers of Barry John. But I guess he doesn't always say what they want to hear?

Criticism is healthy sometimes. On this occasion I think he was right. Welsh rugby (cup is always half full) supporters will always think otherwise.

Come on, he doesn't say anything of consequence.....he has no insight that is why i don't respect him as a pundit....the guy is a rugby playing legend but that doesn't mean he can speak to modern rugby with authority

mowgli wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Big difference between pundits that appear regularly on tv as paid individuals & one off interviews seeking honest views.

Barry John has had a regular pitch in the western mail for a very long time. It's a ghost written column. Sadly the most fascinating thing about it is that they kept him interested long enough to get any material anymore.

Sorry to hear so many Welsh knockers of Barry John. But I guess he doesn't always say what they want to hear?

Criticism is healthy sometimes. On this occasion I think he was right. Welsh rugby (cup is always half full) supporters will always think otherwise.

Come on, he doesn't say anything of consequence.....he has no insight that is why i don't respect him as a pundit....the guy is a rugby playing legend but that doesn't mean he can speak to modern rugby with authority

You couldn't be more wrong about my opinion on Barry John. If he ever says anything himself I listen intently, but he doesn't.

As we all keep saying this column is rarely anything to do with Barry John, most of these articles are just quotes of things he said in interview. Mr John is happy whiling away his time with his nine wonderful grand children, as most people of our age are. He doesn't need for much, he has done very well in life. He has some fantastic stories.

You rarely ever see him at matches, club our national, unlike other greats like Gareth Edwards, Phill Bennet, JPR, Gerald etc who all play much more of a part in the game in Wales.

When Barry John retired he became somewhat of a recluse from the game for his own reasons. I guess that is how most of us think of him.

Well that and this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVK1XU8k2AA

optimist wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

optimist wrote:... This guy had made the ball land wherever the boys asked him - drop kicks, punts, place kicks - on the cross-bar, on the top of each post, on a bit of paper in the distance, even on targets behind him only briefly glanced at....

Oh come on please. This is hyperbole of the most profound order.

... he preferred to watch the honesty, endeavour and, above all, the spontaneity of the schoolboys.

... And that is the case for the defense, your honour.

If my account was hyperbole of the most profound order, I'd say your response was sarcasm laid on with a trowel.

I didn't say those kicks by Barry John were performed during a match but on a parks pitch with a group of kids - no game pressure then. Having watched the bloke play for Cardiff with Gareth Edwards for about 5 seasons, I rate him as the most accurate and intelligent out-of-hand kicker of all the international No. 10s I've seen up to the present day.

Fly-halves of John's era generally were better drop-kickers and punters of the ball, with a bigger variety of kicks, than nowadays - partly because they had more time, of course, especially in normal club games and particularly in the local park! Defensively they were nowhere near as good as today, but don't belittle the skills that some of them had just because it was a long time ago.

As for the sentiments he expressed in the newspaper piece I mentioned - well, I read it, so no more to say!

Actually on reflection, I retract my accusation of hyperbole. I now firmly believe the entire story is a wistful fabrication.

Land the ball on top each post? Turn it up, mate.

I also respectfully contest the belief that kickers were more accurate nearly 40 years ago. The advances in ball technology alone in that time have made the modern goal and tactical kicker much more accurate because the ball flies more true.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

optimist wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

optimist wrote:... This guy had made the ball land wherever the boys asked him - drop kicks, punts, place kicks - on the cross-bar, on the top of each post, on a bit of paper in the distance, even on targets behind him only briefly glanced at....

Oh come on please. This is hyperbole of the most profound order.

... he preferred to watch the honesty, endeavour and, above all, the spontaneity of the schoolboys.

... And that is the case for the defense, your honour.

If my account was hyperbole of the most profound order, I'd say your response was sarcasm laid on with a trowel.

I didn't say those kicks by Barry John were performed during a match but on a parks pitch with a group of kids - no game pressure then. Having watched the bloke play for Cardiff with Gareth Edwards for about 5 seasons, I rate him as the most accurate and intelligent out-of-hand kicker of all the international No. 10s I've seen up to the present day.

Fly-halves of John's era generally were better drop-kickers and punters of the ball, with a bigger variety of kicks, than nowadays - partly because they had more time, of course, especially in normal club games and particularly in the local park! Defensively they were nowhere near as good as today, but don't belittle the skills that some of them had just because it was a long time ago.

As for the sentiments he expressed in the newspaper piece I mentioned - well, I read it, so no more to say!

Actually on reflection, I retract my accusation of hyperbole. I now firmly believe the entire story is a wistful fabrication.

Land the ball on top each post? Turn it up, mate.

I also respectfully contest the belief that kickers were more accurate nearly 40 years ago. The advances in ball technology alone in that time have made the modern goal and tactical kicker much more accurate because the ball flies more true.

You're certainly the expert when it comes to fabricated stories, aren't you Mr English learner.

Hold on, did somebody dare suggest a player outside of New Zealand was a great of the game? No wonder AWOP is so angry.

Morgannwg wrote:Hold on, did somebody dare suggest a player outside of New Zealand was a great of the game? No wonder AWOP is so angry.

It was the Kiwis who nicknamed him "The King" back in NZ in '71.

maestegmafia wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Hold on, did somebody dare suggest a player outside of New Zealand was a great of the game? No wonder AWOP is so angry.

It was the Kiwis who nicknamed him "The King" back in NZ in '71.

Exactly, and as AWOP seems to doubt Barry John's phenomenal kicking out-of-hand, Kiwis nicknamed him "The King" for games like the one against Hawkes Bay in 1971.

In that game his tactical kicking made the then All Blacks full-back, Fergie McCormack, look so ragged that the poor bloke wan't picked for New Zealand again.

And done with an old-style leather ball. Everyone knows that ball technology, etc, has made place-kicking better than it was 40 years ago.

But kicking-out-of hand in a match is different. Barry John's accuracy and intelligence in that respect was unrivalled. Away from the game, on a parks pitch, he was perfectly capable of punting a ball to land on top of a post - not necessarily every time, but enough to say he could do it. By the way, "land on top of" doesn't mean the ball stayed there!

Actually, it's not even unique. I saw a 17 year-old lad, frustrated because his side was losing, do the same on purpose - he shouted he was going to do it - at half-time in a game. Call it a circus skill if you like, but it's certainly been done.

Optimist your right. He and Gareth Edwards were the ultimate HalfBack pairing, they could do anything from anywhere.

There was an interview with The King and McCormick about that first test a while ago. For those who haven't seen it, they may be able too.

Barry John put the ball where McCormick had to run to it to catch it. One time it would be short, next a little left, behind him. John got it perfect every time, and Taylor, Dixon or Dawes would be all over the poor bugger.

optimist wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Hold on, did somebody dare suggest a player outside of New Zealand was a great of the game? No wonder AWOP is so angry.

It was the Kiwis who nicknamed him "The King" back in NZ in '71.

Exactly, and as AWOP seems to doubt Barry John's phenomenal kicking out-of-hand, Kiwis nicknamed him "The King" for games like the one against Hawkes Bay in 1971.

In that game his tactical kicking made the then All Blacks full-back, Fergie McCormack, look so ragged that the poor bloke wan't picked for New Zealand again.

And done with an old-style leather ball. Everyone knows that ball technology, etc, has made place-kicking better than it was 40 years ago.

But kicking-out-of hand in a match is different. Barry John's accuracy and intelligence in that respect was unrivalled. Away from the game, on a parks pitch, he was perfectly capable of punting a ball to land on top of a post - not necessarily every time, but enough to say he could do it. By the way, "land on top of" doesn't mean the ball stayed there!

Actually, it's not even unique. I saw a 17 year-old lad, frustrated because his side was losing, do the same on purpose - he shouted he was going to do it - at half-time in a game. Call it a circus skill if you like, but it's certainly been done.

You know what? I'm going to leave you alone here with your fantasies. I suggest you get a box of kleenex and some hand cream, close your eyes and keep imaging it really happened...

Why are you allowed to call somebody a liar, but should anybody question whether you are Grey Ghost, people get the hump? Smacks of double standards. You've made your point that you don't believe it, so stop going on about it on here and on other posts.

As long as the poster keeps insisting it is true, I'll keep pointing out it's an obvious wistful fabrication.

Kinescope looked good in 1970 too, but there's no need to pretend it was 3D HDTV to "bring it up to date". The guy was good in his day, granted. But let's face that the world has moved on.

maestegmafia wrote:Optimist your right. He and Gareth Edwards were the ultimate HalfBack pairing, they could do anything from anywhere.

and that includes Lions squad 'selection' now in 2012

Risca Rev wrote:Why are you allowed to call somebody a liar, but should anybody question whether you are Grey Ghost, people get the hump? Smacks of double standards. You've made your point that you don't believe it, so stop going on about it on here and on other posts.

Gents, just ignore personal attack removed...because he doesn't believe it is true does not make it so, he is not the arbiter of veracity on this site despite thinking he knows more about everything than even Biltong. He is a closet WUM and you are feeding his habit

anotherworldofpain wrote:As long as the poster keeps insisting it is true, I'll keep pointing out it's an obvious wistful fabrication.

Kinescope looked good in 1970 too, but there's no need to pretend it was 3D HDTV to "bring it up to date". The guy was good in his day, granted. But let's face that the world has moved on.

Oh yeah - comparing sporting skills to developments in technology. It might be true if people were robots.

You were good in your day, Ali, 40 years ago. But those grainy old films showing your handspeed - obviously can't be true, the film's been doctored - those who actually saw it, all 'wistfully fabricating'. And those Klitschkos, with their advanced training and dietary advice - look at the size of them - you'd have stood no chance, Muhammad. Good in your day, but ....!

I think AWOP needs to come out of the closet mowgli, what do you think?

If it smells porky, and looks like a pie, it's probably a porky pie.

Just calling things what they fellows, no closets around it!

anotherworldofpain wrote:If it smells porky, and looks like a pie, it's probably a porky pie.

Just calling things what they fellows, no closets around it!

"Probably" - because the senses sometimes let us down!

optimist wrote:Following up my comments on Barry John's abilities as a player but shortcomings as a pundit, a couple of my own son's experiences may underline the point.

At the age of 10, in 1980, he didn't know who Barry John was. Over the local park, the uncle of one of my son's friends asked if he could join them in a rugby kick-about. He was in street clothes, wearing slip-on shoes.

My son came home and couldn't stop talking about the fantastic kicking of his friend's Uncle Barry. This guy had made the ball land wherever the boys asked him - drop kicks, punts, place kicks - on the cross-bar, on the top of each post, on a bit of paper in the distance, even on targets behind him only briefly glanced at.

| asked my son if he'd heard Uncle Barry's surname. Was his name Barry John? That's right, said my son, still unaware.

The other experience came about 5 years later, in the mid-1980s, when my son was in his school's under-15s. Barry John wrote a piece in the paper, I can't remember if it was the Western Mail, saying that he'd rather watch good-quality schoolboy rugby than a senior game.

To illustrate this Barry John reported on two matches he'd recently seen, one a senior club game and the other a schoolboy match. It was clear that the latter involved my son's under-15s side. Allowing for the differences in physical strength and speed, and some skills, he preferred to watch the honesty, endeavour and, above all, the spontaneity of the schoolboys.

It's an interesting viewpoint, which seemed to say a lot about Barry John's approach to rugby - written over 25 years ago - but not one which would earn many marks as a pundit on modern professional rugby.

Landing a ball on top of a rugby post is all well and good - I once saw Scott Gibbs eat a set meal for 4 in an Indian, on his own. And he ordered extra naan.

Left nothing but a generous tip.

Let me tell you a true story.

I was once strolling on the habour near Kohimarama gazing out to Rangitoto under the big Pohutakawa tree opposite a cafe there when I saw a group of people huddled around a small boy on the foreshore and there was some comotion going on. The only word I could make out from the hubbub was "Fox" which seemed repeated over and over.

Of course I had only just arrived in the country and so I thought perhaps a fox had attacked the boy, as I had heard of the famous Australian baby stealing dingos and I thought perhaps this was something similar.

As I'm a fully trained first aider I thought I would go down to the scene and see if I could help.

But when I got down there I could see that nobody was hurt so I asked what was going on.

It transpired that the young lad's father worked as a builder on Waiheke Island and he had been supposed to take the ferry over to meet him, but had lost his fare somehow. As the building site had no phone and this was before the days of mobile phones, he was distraught that he had no way of letting his father know.

Luckily a local man, a Mr Fox, had come to know of the distress and rushed to the boys aid, by writing the message on the side of a rugby ball (of all thinigs? can you imagine it?) he then punted the ball from the foreshore to a friend of his living nearby on Waiheke Island, a Mr Spencer. He was now busy allaying fears amongst the boys party that Mr Spencer would in return write the instructions of the father on the other side of the ball and punt it back.

They were of course just waiting for an inbound Qantas jet to pass safely, before the return punt could be made!

ur English is definately improved AWOP - almost like a native ...

I work hard at it Smirnoff! Foreign Vocabulary is a passion and hobby of mine!

AWOP - what's next ? learn Welsh & Gaelic ?

Or Cornish

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Or Cornish

I can say "Pasty" that is enough for me.