K2 killing boxing?

By any stretch of the imagination they are wonderful athletes, great boxers and come across as genuinely nice guys (business practices aside). But they lack the X factor that makes the heavyweight champion the flag bearer of boxing. In public they say the right things, do the right things and come across as UN ambassadors to boxing. Inside the ring they fight in a manner that leaves the viewing public comfortable. Sorry but the viewing public generally likes to be on the edge of their seat when watching boxing and especially the big men. They say that in HW boxing one punch changes everything. With K2, its a succession of jabs and the occasional right cross until the opponent is either stopped by the ref of by their corner.

You can't be nice both in and out of the rind and get the general public going. They both lack spite in and out of the ring. Their continuous dominance is killing boxing in the sense that they do not represent fight fans (not just boxing fans) but boxing purists. History will be kind to them as it should be. But the current cannot be. Hardly anyone outside of eastern europe looks forward to their fights and hardly anyone can say they deliver edge of seat stuff. Obviously their style of boxing will not change. But perhaps they can do something to get worldwide fans excited. Shag a granny instead of helping her across the road. Get done for DUI, stir the pot a little. All this Mr Nice guy "Oh look at me I am a throwback to the gentleman days" is boring. Deliver some excitement.

Rant over.

No chance. Why are the best boxers in the heavyweight division who fight their mandatories and top condenders killing boxing? Is it their fault? No.

This is whats killing boxing;

1) Too many organisations squabbling with each other over belts held. WBC saying its champions will be stripped for recognising another belt.

2) Promoters like Frank Warren and Bob Arum - making crappy fights and selling them to the public as blockbusters. Bobs refusal to work with Floyd and vice versa has killed the best fight of our generation.

3) Fights like Cleverley vs Karpency and Fury vs Maddalone/Rogan - these are boxers people don't care about, and we're fed lies that Cleverley is challenging all comers? The public should be given the fights they want, not the fights promoters think their charge will win and continue to hoodwink fans.

4) Boxers being treated like cattle, the minute they lose, they get dropped or unguided by their promoters.

In actual fact I could go on for 10 different points but I'll summarise.

Whats killing boxing?

1) Promoters and Organisations squabbling and making utter tripe titles.

azania wrote:By any stretch of the imagination they are wonderful athletes, great boxers and come across as genuinely nice guys (business practices aside). But they lack the X factor that makes the heavyweight champion the flag bearer of boxing. In public they say the right things, do the right things and come across as UN ambassadors to boxing. Inside the ring they fight in a manner that leaves the viewing public comfortable. History will be kind to them as it should
.

Don't really see the problem. At the end of the day its their livlihood and careers. Is Wlad gonna fight in a way that makes him successful in the ring, earns lots of money and makes sure he keeps racking up the wins? Or should he drop his guard, stick his chin out and just trade so that he might excite a few naysayers on forums around the world? Simple question to answer for him really.

As for changing their personalities outside the ring that's a ridiculous point. If it takes a retarded thug who goes round bashing grannies and the like to get your juices flowing (a) their might be something wrong with you and (b) There are plenty of reality shows full of these cretins to keep you amused. Seriously though there's nothing cooler than and its easier to follow and support a proper badass but wouldn't be worse if Wlad manufactured this kind of personality? It would be cringey.

I've got to disagree with you Az. Why should they change the way they fight to please so called boxing fans. If they weren't winning then they could think about changing but if it aint broke don't try and fix it. I found Ali and Roy Jones Jr a bit boring at certain stages of their careers as they were so superior to their opponents.

We all know what is killing the sport. It's not K2

I think its lack of competition and rivalries more than anything else.

paperbag_puncher wrote:

As for changing their personalities outside the ring that's a ridiculous point. If it takes a retarded thug who goes round bashing grannies and the like to get your juices flowing (a) their might be something wrong with you and (b)

Amen to that Paperbag, asking a genuinely nice guy educated to PhD level to put up some completely false personality as a brain dead moron perhaps says more about you Az than it does the brothers.

rowley wrote:

paperbag_puncher wrote:

As for changing their personalities outside the ring that's a ridiculous point. If it takes a retarded thug who goes round bashing grannies and the like to get your juices flowing (a) their might be something wrong with you and (b)

Amen to that Paperbag, asking a genuinely nice guy educated to PhD level to put up some completely false personality as a brain dead moron perhaps says more about you Az than it does the brothers.

Aye, great post Paperbag and I can't really add anything to it. The only thing I would say, in terms of personalities, is that Wladimir was completely outshone on that infamous Ringside episode. David Hayes hilarious Borat impression had me rolling around on the floor. RALMAO (just for you, Jeff) infact. It was a real hoot...

I would love to give Az the benefit of the doubt and say he was trying to stimulate a decent debate on the subject, but 25 times bitten, 50 times shy. His thoughts on K2 are far too well known and this could, just maybe, be an attempt to engage the entire board against him again.

Yawn.

Not at all. They aren't actors and this isn't the WWE, do you really expect to them act like clowns or thugs or whatever for the entertainment of casual fans? They fight in a way that is a proven formula for them - it is the lack of competition that is the problem. I get sick of hearing things like this about K2, is it their fault they're so much better than the rest? Should they take stupid risks in the ring to risk getting ko'd by an inferior opponent (again, in wlads case)? They are are dominant a) because they are very good boxers and b) because of a lack of fierce competition, neither of which is their fault. And I would feel less comfortable with fake trash talking than no trash talking at all. K2 have class, only a fool would mock that.

If you want to know what's killing boxing have a read of the 'champion of the decade' article from yesterday, or the many articles questioning why manny & floyd have been ducking each other for 3 years, or the article about Ricky Hattons return being on an obscure PPV subscription channel.

It shouldn't take someone to act like a dick to make them popular. Messi is probably the most popular sportsman out there just now and he's as quiet and well behaved as they come. It's the fact that he's pushing the boundaries of what's possible in his sport that captures the imagination and makes him so popular.

If Wlad and Vitali were spectacular in the ring then more people would take notice and their out of ring behaviour would be incidental. That they are not spectacular is their choosing and there's no reason for them to change something that has been successful for them. The lack of excitement comes from the lack of viable and talented challengers pushing the brotheres to the limit of their abilities.

What should also not be forgotten in all of this is the Klitschko’s target audience which is very much the German and Eastern European market do not give a flying one about any perceived lack of excitement in their style. The brothers regularly sell out arenas and stadiums and attract massive, and one would imagine lucrative commercial deals and sponsorship. To my mind if you’re selling tickets, winning, making shedloads into the bargain and doing all this whilst retaining the possibility of leaving the sport with your brains still in one piece you’re not doing too bad all told.

You really started losing it here when you suggested that a pair of nice fellas actually deliberately become a couple of wrong'uns in order to save boxing, Az!

Have things really got that bad and desperate?

Was Jones Jr killing boxing during his pomp? He was more or less a recluse to the press for many years and, while his sublime talents were universally praised, he suffered (if that's the right word) from the same problem as the Klitschkos have; there was nobody to really test him, and as such his fights were rarely much of a spectacle, and even more seldom looked forward to by fight fans. He was regarded as the finest fighter on the planet by many people for a decade, and yet even then he never managed to capture the boxing public's affections.

There have been so-called 'boring' world champions before, so it's not as if the brothers are breaking a trend, is it? When it comes to discussing the more concerning points of boxing with others, I find it's never the Klitschkos who are brought up as the source of the problems. Rather, it's the ever-growing number of ridiculous titles, poor decisions in big fights and stubborn promoters putting obstacles in the way of fights we want to see.

I'd rather kick those factors out than the Klitschkos any old day of the week.

The big 4 orgs are killing the sport as they demand inferior fights over the big ones everybody wants.

I admit I find the K Bros extremely dull and rarely bother to watch their fights ad I hear their contracts 'may' be a bit slave-like BUT the fact is they are just a level above the rest which isn't their fault.

I have said in the past the division will get more exciting once they retire but the more I think about it, it could get worse as at present we do a least have bonafide champs who will be highly rated in history. Once they go we'll have a punch of other guys who no one will give a damn about and the level of fights barring perhaps Price and Haye if he continues will be dire!

I find it amusing that you're all just rehashing what I said in my earlier post....its as if you don't read them!

I refer you to the last paragraph of Tino's post as a reason for why that may be the case, Jab Machine!

Ah, but I diverted the attention to what really is killing boxing - promoters and sanctioning bodies. I refuse to engage in being wound up about the Kbros.

I find it interesting it is only the Klitschko's who get such threads written about them, where is the Mayweather is killing boxing thread, is clearly a fairly unpleasant individual outside the ring, as his prison sentence amply demonstrates, has shown no interest in fighting the only guy at his weight who represents a challenge to him over the last few years and fights infrequently enough to be considered a part time boxer.

Not saying these are my views or I consider him to be killing boxing but the argument seems easier to make than it does for the brothers.

Aye, but what I mean is that everyone else agreeing and Az then playing devil's advocate is par for the course when it's a thread created by Az himself. As such, it was pretty much inevitable that everyone was going to agree with and echo your sentiments!

There's still nothing in this article to top the classic "The Klitschko brothers make Don King look like Jesus" line, however!

My point is, these guys are great boxers but do not bring anything exciting to the sport. Nice guys indeed but boring. Devoid of personality both in and out of the ring. Their fights don't make you sit on edge because you know the outcome. They are functional as opposed to exciting. You don't marvel at their skill, just appreciate it. The HW champion defending his crown used to be an event. Now you hardly know its happening. Surely that can't be good for the sport.

When Holmes, Tyson, Lewis, Holy fought many people over the glovbe knew about it. When K2 fight it bareky gets a mention.

What about the comparisons I drew with Roy though, Az?

Not much they can do about it they cant make the opposition suddenly improve in the heavies and any fighter is judged on who they beat and due to the terrible state of the division neither brother has ever beat anyone decent unless you count a blown up crusierweight. If they had a few good names on their records the fact they are as dull as ditchwater would not matter.

rowley wrote:I find it interesting it is only the Klitschko's who get such threads written about them, where is the Mayweather is killing boxing thread, is clearly a fairly unpleasant individual outside the ring, as his prison sentence amply demonstrates, has shown no interest in fighting the only guy at his weight who represents a challenge to him over the last few years and fights infrequently enough to be considered a part time boxer.

Not saying these are my views or I consider him to be killing boxing but the argument seems easier to make than it does for the brothers.

I've said many times that Floyd is not the most exciting inside the ring. His personality brings a lot of fans and detractors alike and more fans means boxing gets more headlines. You look forward to his fights and his skills are something to marvel at.

Boxing is a sport where nice guys don't really cut it. When is Wlad fighting next? Anyone know?

azania wrote:

Boxing is a sport where nice guys don't really cut it. When is Wlad fighting next? Anyone know?

November 10th.

Spoiler:

88Chris05 wrote:You really started losing it here when you suggested that a pair of nice fellas actually deliberately become a couple of wrong'uns in order to save boxing, Az!

Have things really got that bad and desperate?

Was Jones Jr killing boxing during his pomp? He was more or less a recluse to the press for many years and, while his sublime talents were universally praised, he suffered (if that's the right word) from the same problem as the Klitschkos have; there was nobody to really test him, and as such his fights were rarely much of a spectacle, and even more seldom looked forward to by fight fans. He was regarded as the finest fighter on the planet by many people for a decade, and yet even then he never managed to capture the boxing public's affections.

There have been so-called 'boring' world champions before, so it's not as if the brothers are breaking a trend, is it? When it comes to discussing the more concerning points of boxing with others, I find it's never the Klitschkos who are brought up as the source of the problems. Rather, it's the ever-growing number of ridiculous titles, poor decisions in big fights and stubborn promoters putting obstacles in the way of fights we want to see.

I'd rather kick those factors out than the Klitschkos any old day of the week.

Was RJJ a jab jab jab jab right cross merchant? Even Stevie Wonder would marvel at his skills. Only purists would appreciate K2's skills. A champ can be dominant but still deliver exciting fights as RJJ did. His total destruction of Vinny Paz where he went a round without a single punch landing on his was exceptional. He brought gasps and oooohs and aaahhs when he fought. Can the same be said of K2?

azania wrote:
Boxing is a sport where nice guys don't really cut it.

Their ticket sales over the last few years would suggest otherwise. Would not confuse you not caring for them with everyone else feeling the same Az, would like to think your last few years on here would have demonstrated to you that you are hardly representative of the voice of the majority.

hogey wrote:Not much they can do about it they cant make the opposition suddenly improve in the heavies and any fighter is judged on who they beat and due to the terrible state of the division neither brother has ever beat anyone decent unless you count a blown up crusierweight. If they had a few good names on their records the fact they are as dull as ditchwater would not matter.

Its not about their opposition. If they are bad, get rid of them in a manner befitting of the dominant champions that they are. A fighter is also judged in the manner of victory.

paperbag_puncher wrote:

azania wrote:By any stretch of the imagination they are wonderful athletes, great boxers and come across as genuinely nice guys (business practices aside). But they lack the X factor that makes the heavyweight champion the flag bearer of boxing. In public they say the right things, do the right things and come across as UN ambassadors to boxing. Inside the ring they fight in a manner that leaves the viewing public comfortable. History will be kind to them as it should
.

Don't really see the problem. At the end of the day its their livlihood and careers. Is Wlad gonna fight in a way that makes him successful in the ring, earns lots of money and makes sure he keeps racking up the wins? Or should he drop his guard, stick his chin out and just trade so that he might excite a few naysayers on forums around the world? Simple question to answer for him really.

As for changing their personalities outside the ring that's a ridiculous point. If it takes a retarded thug who goes round bashing grannies and the like to get your juices flowing (a) their might be something wrong with you and (b) There are plenty of reality shows full of these cretins to keep you amused. Seriously though there's nothing cooler than and its easier to follow and support a proper badass but wouldn't be worse if Wlad manufactured this kind of personality? It would be cringey.

If these guys were a tad more exciting both in and out of the ring, but preferably in the ring, they would be huge names the world over. They are terrific fighters without doubt. But by god they are boring. I'm not saying Wlad should stick his chin out to please fans. You can be thoroughly dominant and exciting. They are thoroughly dominant but boring.

As for their opponents, please dont say things like Mormeck is like Tyson. That is taking us for fools. Just be honest,. Say I'll ko him quickly.

rowley wrote:

paperbag_puncher wrote:

As for changing their personalities outside the ring that's a ridiculous point. If it takes a retarded thug who goes round bashing grannies and the like to get your juices flowing (a) their might be something wrong with you and (b)

Amen to that Paperbag, asking a genuinely nice guy educated to PhD level to put up some completely false personality as a brain dead moron perhaps says more about you Az than it does the brothers.

OK perhaps not shag a grannie. But talk up Mormeck? Please.

superflyweight wrote:It shouldn't take someone to act like a dick to make them popular. Messi is probably the most popular sportsman out there just now and he's as quiet and well behaved as they come. It's the fact that he's pushing the boundaries of what's possible in his sport that captures the imagination and makes him so popular.

If Wlad and Vitali were spectacular in the ring then more people would take notice and their out of ring behaviour would be incidental. That they are not spectacular is their choosing and there's no reason for them to change something that has been successful for them. The lack of excitement comes from the lack of viable and talented challengers pushing the brotheres to the limit of their abilities.

When Messi gets the ball in a dangerous people stand up to see what he will do next. When K2 have a guy on the ropes, they throw another jab. Hardly exciting.

Absolutely correct in that they shouldn't change what has been a successful formula for them. But is it fan friendly? My argument is that it isn't. As standard bearers of boxing, I reckon they should at least try to please fans. Their opponents are over-matched. Despatch them as their skills dictate they can.

rowley wrote:What should also not be forgotten in all of this is the Klitschko’s target audience which is very much the German and Eastern European market do not give a flying one about any perceived lack of excitement in their style. The brothers regularly sell out arenas and stadiums and attract massive, and one would imagine lucrative commercial deals and sponsorship. To my mind if you’re selling tickets, winning, making shedloads into the bargain and doing all this whilst retaining the possibility of leaving the sport with your brains still in one piece you’re not doing too bad all told.

They are WORLD champions not German and Eastern Euro champions. Their audience is the world. That you say they don't give a flying one about their boring style proves my point in them being bad for boxing.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

rowley wrote:

paperbag_puncher wrote:

As for changing their personalities outside the ring that's a ridiculous point. If it takes a retarded thug who goes round bashing grannies and the like to get your juices flowing (a) their might be something wrong with you and (b)

Amen to that Paperbag, asking a genuinely nice guy educated to PhD level to put up some completely false personality as a brain dead moron perhaps says more about you Az than it does the brothers.

Aye, great post Paperbag and I can't really add anything to it. The only thing I would say, in terms of personalities, is that Wladimir was completely outshone on that infamous Ringside episode. David Hayes hilarious Borat impression had me rolling around on the floor. RALMAO (just for you, Jeff) infact. It was a real hoot...

I would love to give Az the benefit of the doubt and say he was trying to stimulate a decent debate on the subject, but 25 times bitten, 50 times shy. His thoughts on K2 are far too well known and this could, just maybe, be an attempt to engage the entire board against him again.

Yawn.

Purely boxing debates. No politics and less focus on out of the ring stuff. Are a couple of nice guys but dullards ruling the roost of boxing good for the sport?

Az, why don't you focus on the real reason instead of trying to pin it on two very good boxers?

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Ah, but I diverted the attention to what really is killing boxing - promoters and sanctioning bodies. I refuse to engage in being wound up about the Kbros.

No wum of K2. I have stated that they are great boxers and argued long and hard in support of them when talking about their future standings in the ATG debate. Deffo top 20 but closer to top 15.

The HW champion is supposed to stand as a collussus of the sport. They dont. They bore people in the ring.

Holmes was a world champion, how many time did he fight outside the states as champion? Ditto Tyson, Holyfield or countless others I could name. Seems it is OK if you are American to operate exclusively in your back yard but if you're Eastern European and do the same you're killing the sport. They are popularising the sport in areas it has traditionally not been massive, thats a good thing as far as I am concerned.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Az, why don't you focus on the real reason instead of trying to pin it on two very good boxers?

The sanctioning bodies screwing things up is a given. Promoters being vampires is a given. I don't want to appreciate skills. I want to be excited by the HW champ sending over-matched opponents to sleep in devestating fashion.

rowley wrote:Holmes was a world champion, how many time did he fight outside the states as champion? Ditto Tyson, Holyfield or countless others I could name. Seems it is OK if you are American to operate exclusively in your back yard but if you're Eastern European and do the same you're killing the sport. They are popularising the sport in areas it has traditionally not been massive, thats a good thing as far as I am concerned.

Its not a question of fighting outside one country or another. I couldn't care less where they fought. Holmes and Tyson got rid of tripe in spectacular fashion. You could appreciate their skills and get excited about it.

They may be popularising the sport in Eastern europe but killing it elsewhere.

It's solely your opinion though that they are killing it, they still draw decent crowds and generate good press. What is your evidence that they are killing it? Many would be of the view that American indifference to the sport is more related to the fact that it does not have a contender or fighter who looks even close to competing with them any time soon, for me it is more a reflection of that particular countries insularity than the sport being slowly killed by the brothers

I'm with Az on this one.

Jab jab jab jab cross, UD.

It is so boring. The heavyweight champion of the world should be knocking people out, not plodding to decisions in every defence.

When was the last time either brother knocked a guy out?

Just look at their KO percentages, both are below 90%. Dreadful.

azania wrote:Absolutely correct in that they shouldn't change what has been a successful formula for them. But is it fan friendly? My argument is that it isn't. As standard bearers of boxing, I reckon they should at least try to please fans. Their opponents are over-matched. Despatch them as their skills dictate they can.

Which is it, Az? Shouldn't change their styles, or should change them to please the fans more?

Union Cane wrote:I'm with Az on this one.

Jab jab jab jab cross, UD.

It is so boring. The heavyweight champion of the world should be knocking people out, not plodding to decisions in every defence.

When was the last time either brother knocked a guy out?

Just look at their KO percentages, both are below 90%. Dreadful.

Great. Hide behind stats. Vit looked great in getting rid of Hide. He went in there and took him out. Showed Hide was thoroughly over-matched. He delivered excitement and left the public gasping. How often do they do that? They jab their opponents until absolutely secure that they will land the right cross, then they throw. Successful formula of course. But is it exciting? Hardly.

Mormeck was removed as he should have been. How often has Wlad left an opponent flat out and not through fatigue?

K2 are saving boxing / well the heavyweight division if anything. If having a Belarussian, Russian, Kazakh and Hasim Rahman as heavyweight champions floats yer boat then fine but that would have been the situation a few years ago before K2 took out the trash.

My only hope is the older K retires this year and preferably tomorrow. I would really like to see one man own the heavyweight division rather than two.

As for their styles, I actually find them quite entertaining, especially Vitali but then I appreciate I'm in a minority on that one.

rowley wrote:It's solely your opinion though that they are killing it, they still draw decent crowds and generate good press. What is your evidence that they are killing it? Many would be of the view that American indifference to the sport is more related to the fact that it does not have a contender or fighter who looks even close to competing with them any time soon, for me it is more a reflection of that particular countries insularity than the sport being slowly killed by the brothers

OK, you guys seme hung up on the term "killing boxing". Fair enough. I over-egged it. I thought supposedly intelligent people would realise that a boring style of fighting for the HW champs is not exactly good for boxing. I reckon if USA produced a boxer who was boring their audience they would be indifferent to them also.

88Chris05 wrote:

azania wrote:Absolutely correct in that they shouldn't change what has been a successful formula for them. But is it fan friendly? My argument is that it isn't. As standard bearers of boxing, I reckon they should at least try to please fans. Their opponents are over-matched. Despatch them as their skills dictate they can.

Which is it, Az? Shouldn't change their styles, or should change them to please the fans more?

I reckon they should be more aggressive.

Well I don't much care for their style but it works for them and their audience so I don't blame them for utilising it, if I was going to get wound up at anyone it would be the bunch of fat, lazy waste of spaces who pass for contenders who lack the discipline or tactical nous to make the brothers find or require a plan B.

They are giving the European crowds what they want. Look at Vitali vs Adamek, he could have had him out of there in the first, but wanted to put on a show for the fans, so carried him for ten rounds. It is what the paying fans want to see.

You'd be more 'excited' by a KO1 every six months?

Super D Boon wrote:K2 are saving boxing / well the heavyweight division if anything. If having a Belarussian, Russian, Kazakh and Hasim Rahman as heavyweight champions floats yer boat then fine but that would have been the situation a few years ago before K2 took out the trash.

My only hope is the older K retires this year and preferably tomorrow. I would really like to see one man own the heavyweight division rather than two.

As for their styles, I actually find them quite entertaining, especially Vitali but then I appreciate I'm in a minority on that one.

Whatever floats your boat mate

rowley wrote:Well I don't much care for their style but it works for them and their audience so I don't blame them for utilising it, if I was going to get wound up at anyone it would be the bunch of fat, lazy waste of spaces who pass for contenders who lack the discipline or tactical nous to make the brothers find or require a plan B.

Contenders today could develop a plan A-Z they still wouldn't beat Wlad. That is not my point. If I wanted to watch a chess match I'm rewind Kasparov playing Blue Sea. Great for chess, but bad for boxing.

Union Cane wrote:They are giving the European crowds what they want. Look at Vitali vs Adamek, he could have had him out of there in the first, but wanted to put on a show for the fans, so carried him for ten rounds. It is what the paying fans want to see.

You'd be more 'excited' by a KO1 every six months?

That would be good if they were European Champions. They are world champions. Winning is a given in that they are so far ahead. But they should at least try to win with a little style. Look good instead of functional.

I'd prefer a Ko1 that a systematic and boring jab fest over 10 rounds before the KO. It becomes predictable.

People still talk of Tyson's 96 second detruction of Spinks.

So when you titled the article with a question mark that was a mistake, as you are not asking, you are telling.

You have decided, and that is that.

Ok.

I'll leave you to it.

azania wrote:

People still talk of Tyson's 96 second detruction of Spinks.

People still talk about Hitler's blitzkrieg occupation of Russia, but it was the slow, methodical Red Army that won that war.

I appreciate that this has very little, if any, relevance, but I thought it sounded really cool.