England Team to Play the Boks

So after a pretty humbling game against Australia we now know that changes definitely need to be made to the starting team to play SA. I'd like to see Lancaster use this game to try out a few bench players and some other squad players before the final game against the AB's.

Making the top four isn't even on the agenda at the moment, what needs to be done now is get a result against either SA or NZ. With the current 23 we aren't going to do this and if we don't try a few changes now then we'll keep backing out of making them until it's too late.

We need greater physicality in the forwards, more control and commitment at the breakdown and players who can draw a man and then pass.

1. Corbisiero- Maybe it's knee jerk to put him straight back in to the starting line up, but he's had two games back for LI now and watching Marler play really highlighted how comfy Corbs was in the 6N's
2. Youngs- He'll benefit from the added power and technique of Corbs alongside him and should have no problem matching the SA packs physicality
3. Cole- Needs to have a better game then Sat, as the most experienced forward in the pack he's going to need to start to get a grip on the guys around him soon and guide them.
4. Launchberry- Has looked comfy when he's come off the bench and will know at least a few of the opposition from his age grade rugby, I can't see him struggling agaisnt them if Eng let him go out and just do what he does best.
5. Parling- We need to have him starting as he works well with Youngs at lineout time, he's also starting to bring his carrying game to Int level
6. Wood- Can help compete against SA on the deck and brings a bit more mongrel to the pack then Johnson.
7. Robshaw- After his worst performance in the Red rose I expect a very good game, needs to hit the rucks more and get more turnovers, must keep Louw out of the game.
8. Waldrom- I really don't think he'll do well but I don't want too many changes, needs to keep hold of the ball and make the right choices more, and needs to work on his ball control at the base.
9. Care- More of the same really, keep kicking well and running when it's on.
10. Flood- You can run and or kick, not just one or other, needs to vary his game a bit more but still Englands best 10 by a mile and he can get a lot better.
11. Monye- Ashton was anonymous against Australia and has done nothing to get straight back in to the team, Monye will bring a lot more physicality to the side and far better defence out wide, he's also a lot better at chasing restarts.
12. Barritt- Needs to try to pass like a 10 or offload in contact more, but we need his tackling.
13. Manu- Just keep taking the ball at full pelt, when he does this he causes problems, keep offloading as well.
14. Sharples- Had a poor game against Oz so I expect a much better game this week, needs to be given some space to work though.
15. Goode- Has to enter the line more and force himself on the game, needs to work on his defence and defensive positioning too, but if he can start passing out to the wide men again we can caue the Boks some problems.

16. Marler
17. Wilson
18. Paice
19. Palmer
20. Haskell
21. Dickson
22. Farrel
23. Joseph

9. Care- More of the same really, keep kicking well and running when it's on.

Did you not see yesterday?

I'd go:

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Waldroum

9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Brown
12. Barritt
13. Manu
14. Ashton
15. Goode

Lawes(if fit), Morgan, JJ from bench

Why would you start Youngs? He's in terrible form.

Brown really isn't a winger and hasn't done anything to suggest he should start.

Ashton has done nothing to get back in to the team and with his dodgy defence will be a liability against the Boks.

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

9. Care
10. Flood
11. Sharples
12. Twelvetrees
13. Joseph
14. Ashton
15. Goode

Waldrom looks like he's on a fat camp rather than being in the England camp. Surely Robshaw, Wood and Haskell would provide a more combative backrow unit. Louw will be rubbing his hands with glee at the prospect of Waldrom in the side.

Marler has to go and the second row looks lightweight.

Backs are not that much of a problem as SA have their own issues there particularly the 10, 12, 13 axis.

Ashton was ok for me, Sharples was poor. All of the Aus breaks came from his side.

Youngs is playing well bar a few knock ons and he just raises the tempo, I like Care but he's too slow in getting rid of the ball and his box kicking was disgraceful which will be picked on by SA. Youngs has a much more rounded game which we'll need.

Brown looked solid when he came on the left wing as he has done before. He'll give us another strong boot and is much more defensively sound than Sharples.

B Youngs looked clueless, Care kicked poorly once and that still wouldn't have been too much of an issue if T Youngs had tackled his man.

Care's passing, defence and vision were all far better then B Youngs and he's shown that not just on Sat but all season so far.

Have to agree to disagree there Yapp. Youngs is a class above crabbing Care for me. Good player but we just looked much sharper when Youngs came on.

I think our lass can box kick better than Care, he's really poor and needs to go back and do some work there.

ER, I'd love to see 36 come in but to be honest it'd just be chucking him to the wolves now, may as well wait for the 6N's for him at least. Joseph needs to come off the bench first.

Kia, Waldrom is a fatty but at the moment are other options are Morgan who plays for Glos so won't be picked, Easter who is over 30 so won't be picked and Haskell who isn't a golden boy so won't be picked.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Have to agree to disagree there Yapp. Youngs is a class above crabbing Care for me. Good player but we just looked much sharper when Youngs came on.

I think our lass can box kick better than Care, he's really poor and needs to go back and do some work there.

Youngs is far better when on form, he just isn't on form at the moment. Hopefully they'll both prove us wrong next week though if the pack can give them some good ball to use

England did look sharper in attack when Care was replaced - as I said elsewhere though I think that was a coincidence. Care and Youngs were much of a muchness and the rabid defence of Care by Quins fans is as bad as the rabid stuff us Tigers were accused of (and guilty of).

I don't think that there's been any rabid defence of Care by Quins fans, everyone just seems to be jumping on him for one kick which Barnes decided to go on about ad nauseum.

And then a Tigers fan started a thread to give him a rating of 2! And Youngs a 7....

yappysnap wrote:Kia, Waldrom is a fatty but at the moment are other options are Morgan who plays for Glos so won't be picked, Easter who is over 30 so won't be picked and Haskell who isn't a golden boy so won't be picked.

Morgan should be playing - to say he will not be selected because he plays for Gloucester is frankly stupidity of the highest order. Easter is over 34 and while his brain is good his legs are even slower - would he have managed to be Englands leading tackler?

Yea Yappy, that was much more an issue. Tough being a scrummie playing behind our pack, always slow ball.

Yappy,

Sam's marks were dumb. But your reaction has been to perform a character assassination on Youngs (who was average rather than the good that Sam claimed, or the appaling that you claimed) rather than concentrate on what Care did or did not do.

TBH there is (and always will be) some club bias in awarding marks. I thought HKC giving Sharples more than Ashton was silly for example.

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Kia, Waldrom is a fatty but at the moment are other options are Morgan who plays for Glos so won't be picked, Easter who is over 30 so won't be picked and Haskell who isn't a golden boy so won't be picked.

Morgan should be playing - to say he will not be selected because he plays for Gloucester is frankly stupidity of the highest order. Easter is over 34 and while his brain is good his legs are even slower - would he have managed to be Englands leading tackler?

The Gloucester comment was tongue in cheek. Easter probably wouldn't have been top tackler, but then 8's are usually meant to offer other things then just tackling, like control at the scrum or power in the tight.

I have no problem with Waldrom starting, i'd just like to see Hask or Morgan on the bench to come on at least.

LondonTiger wrote:Yappy,

Sam's marks were dumb. But your reaction has been to perform a character assassination on Youngs (who was average rather than the good that Sam claimed, or the appaling that you claimed) rather than concentrate on what Care did or did not do.

TBH there is (and always will be) some club bias in awarding marks. I thought HKC giving Sharples more than Ashton was silly for example.

I agree completely, tbh i've found it to be quite cathartic to just vent about Youngs wether it's right or wrong, i'll try to be a little less one eyed next week at least and as I said to Pooly, if Youngs is on form then I have no problem with him playing, and if our pack can actually supply decent ball.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Yea Yappy, that was much more an issue. Tough being a scrummie playing behind our pack, always slow ball.

Yea we seem to be going through exactly the same issues as MJ's reign as Eng coach, I expect we'll have pods next and then Borthwick will be back...

Why do our forwards always ruck down on to the ball and not over it?

Our body position as ball carriers is not always great. Robshaw who looks so composed ball in hand for Quins seemd to keep looking for contact in a very vertical position. He was not the only one. At times I think our forwards just are not used to opposition competing for the ball (in the AP you can get pinged so quickly).

Send out this England Team :-

15 Jonathan Webb
14 Simon Halliday
13 Will Carling
12 Jeremy Guscott
11 Rory Underwood
10 Rob Andrew
9 Richard Hill
1 Jason Leonard
2 Brian Moore
3 Jeff Probyn
4 Paul Ackford
5 Wade Dooley
6 Mike Teague
7 Peter Winterbottom
8 Dean Richards

gboycottnut wrote:Send out this England Team :-

1991 Losing RWC Final team

I suspect that simply anno domini would make the 2007 losing final team a better bet.

Or this one:

1. Charlie Sharples
2. Ben Youngs
3. Joe Simpson
4. Danny Care
5. Toby Flood
6. John Inverdale
7. Steffon Armitage (c)
8. Billy Twelvetrees

9. Matt Banahan
10. Charlie Hodgson

11. Joe Marler
12. James Haskell
13. Louis Deacon
14. Paul Doran-Jones
15. Andy Goode

I'd give my right nut to see that team play. In those positions, of course.

The confusion amongst the enemy would be worth a couple of points by itself.

yappysnap wrote:B Youngs looked clueless, Care kicked poorly once and that still wouldn't have been too much of an issue if T Youngs had tackled his man.

Care's passing, defence and vision were all far better then B Youngs and he's shown that not just on Sat but all season so far.

I think you're getting breaks mixed up there yappysnap. Youngs didn't miss a tackle for the try, and another bad box kick from Care in the second half cost us 3 more.

Disagree with whoever said Monye would add physicality over Ashton. He hasn't actually been in very good form for Quins. Not really sure what he's better at. He's great at reclaiming restarts but we seemed to be doing that well yesterday anyway.

thomh wrote:

yappysnap wrote:B Youngs looked clueless, Care kicked poorly once and that still wouldn't have been too much of an issue if T Youngs had tackled his man.

Care's passing, defence and vision were all far better then B Youngs and he's shown that not just on Sat but all season so far.

I think you're getting breaks mixed up there yappysnap. Youngs didn't miss a tackle for the try, and another bad box kick from Care in the second half cost us 3 more.

Disagree with whoever said Monye would add physicality over Ashton. He hasn't actually been in very good form for Quins. Not really sure what he's better at. He's great at reclaiming restarts but we seemed to be doing that well yesterday anyway.

He does at least defend and kick well, Ashton was pretty annonymous all game yesterday, why not try out Monye against the Boks?

George Carlin wrote:Or this one:

1. Charlie Sharples
2. Ben Youngs
3. Joe Simpson
4. Danny Care
5. Toby Flood
6. John Inverdale
7. Steffon Armitage (c)
8. Billy Twelvetrees

9. Matt Banahan
10. Charlie Hodgson

11. Joe Marler
12. James Haskell
13. Louis Deacon
14. Paul Doran-Jones
15. Andy Goode

I'd give my right nut to see that team play. In those positions, of course.

The confusion amongst the enemy would be worth a couple of points by itself.

No place for the Honey Monster or Mr Bean?

George Carlin wrote:Or this one:

1. Charlie Sharples
2. Ben Youngs
3. Joe Simpson
4. Danny Care
5. Toby Flood
6. John Inverdale
7. Steffon Armitage (c)
8. Billy Twelvetrees

9. Matt Banahan
10. Charlie Hodgson

11. Joe Marler
12. James Haskell
13. Louis Deacon
14. Paul Doran-Jones
15. Andy Goode

I'd give my right nut to see that team play. In those positions, of course.

The confusion amongst the enemy would be worth a couple of points by itself.

Finally, someone talking sense. I've been saying Sharples for LH for a while now, and Bananaman was born to play scrum-half.

I don't think Andy Goode's a 15 though, i'd push him to no8.

Hodgeson looks like the weak link in that team again!!!!

Some would say Inverdale is a surprise choice on the blindside but I disagree.

His matted grey chest hair would adhere him like velcro to any rampaging opposition loosie running at him.

LondonTiger wrote:Our body position as ball carriers is not always great. Robshaw who looks so composed ball in hand for Quins seemd to keep looking for contact in a very vertical position. He was not the only one. At times I think our forwards just are not used to opposition competing for the ball (in the AP you can get pinged so quickly).

LT was shouting at the screen all game. Everytime one of our guys.got.the.ball they hit contact stood up straight....and generally standing still. Robshaw was a major culprit for this..but not the only one.

The scrum machine needs hammering this week....as does the basics of taking.the ball at pace with correct body angles...

Launchbury and vunipola showed them how to do it....and maybe it's time for.Morgan to claim his 8 shirt.

Part of the reason for the odd stance going in to contact was Oz's defence, they weren't looking to chop our boys down but were holding and grappling instead, this is why we need a couple of big nasty bast@ds in the pack so that when the oppo keep trying to grapple they can knock them on their arses.

But who are those big nasty b'stards yappy.

Garvey? Seemingly not rated...
Morgan? Likewise

Where are the monsters like Dooley, Johnson...or even just the hard feckers like Bakkies and Thorn etc....who are just aggressive as anything...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ashton was ok for me, Sharples was poor. All of the Aus breaks came from his side.

Youngs is playing well bar a few knock ons and he just raises the tempo, I like Care but he's too slow in getting rid of the ball and his box kicking was disgraceful which will be picked on by SA. Youngs has a much more rounded game which we'll need.

Brown looked solid when he came on the left wing as he has done before. He'll give us another strong boot and is much more defensively sound than Sharples.

I agree. I thought sharples had a shocker. Youngs (scrum half)is horrifically inconsistent. Neither scrum half was good IMO. Youngs can't box kick either.

Would rather have Brown on the wing than sharples going on the match performance!

GeordieFalcon wrote:But who are those big nasty b'stards yappy.

Garvey? Seemingly not rated...
Morgan? Likewise

Where are the monsters like Dooley, Johnson...or even just the hard feckers like Bakkies and Thorn etc....who are just aggressive as anything...

Billy Vunipola definitely. After that maybe Garvey, maybe Lawes, maybe Attwood, maybe Slater, maybe Fearns, maybe Clark lots of maybies but not many certains.

beshocked wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ashton was ok for me, Sharples was poor. All of the Aus breaks came from his side.

Youngs is playing well bar a few knock ons and he just raises the tempo, I like Care but he's too slow in getting rid of the ball and his box kicking was disgraceful which will be picked on by SA. Youngs has a much more rounded game which we'll need.

Brown looked solid when he came on the left wing as he has done before. He'll give us another strong boot and is much more defensively sound than Sharples.

I agree. I thought sharples had a shocker. Youngs (scrum half)is horrifically inconsistent. Neither scrum half was good IMO. Youngs can't box kick either.

Would rather have Brown on the wing than sharples going on the match performance!

Youngs box kicking is much more accurate than Care's. I think it's been one of Youngs major strengths this season.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But who are those big nasty b'stards yappy.

Garvey? Seemingly not rated...
Morgan? Likewise

Where are the monsters like Dooley, Johnson...or even just the hard feckers like Bakkies and Thorn etc....who are just aggressive as anything...

Really don't think Morgan is a nasty b'stard, not at all that was shown against the Boks, good carrier but not a hard as nails type of player. Lawes and Haskell are the only two players for me who have a chance of playing this autumn who are hard as nails, both of their tackling is extremely aggressive and Haskells carrying is too.

Anyone think that as England supporters we always have these knee-jerk reactions to losses with widespread changes because of alleigances to clubs. For example with the small Care and Youngs feud on several posts recently? I just dont think there would be this amount of changes suggested if this happened to Glaws, Quins and Leicester for example. Simply because there is more loyalty to players. I think there was some good rugby played by us yesterday. The main things we need to look at is better ball carrying from the forwards at times we off loaded well in that area but that was off quick ball after a strong carry, we need more of this. Also half backs not letting the situation dictating their decisions but their decisions dictating the situation. For example not tapping and going because of desperation or going for the corner.

I do think there are knee jerk reactions which aren't necessary.

Radical changes aren't needed...we just need our guys to get a bit more intelligent and a bit more technically right....which will come.

Hartley, Lawes would most likely have.started which might have changed things but oz were missing key players aswell so that's not an excuse..

I wasn't hugely confident in.this AI's but as long as I see the future players being introduced like. Launchbury, etc then I am hopeful...

yappysnap wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But who are those big nasty b'stards yappy.

Garvey? Seemingly not rated...
Morgan? Likewise

Where are the monsters like Dooley, Johnson...or even just the hard feckers like Bakkies and Thorn etc....who are just aggressive as anything...

Billy Vunipola definitely. After that maybe Garvey, maybe Lawes, maybe Attwood, maybe Slater, maybe Fearns, maybe Clark lots of maybies but not many certains.

+1!

Looks fantastic going forward. Has surprisingly good feet and tackles well. Fitness is clearly not international standard. But he can't be far off getting a look in. He's been better for 60mins than most of his rivals are for 80. If we cap him now and keep him around the group I genuinely think he has the ability to play at this level long term. Start him at 8 and move Robshaw there after 60 if necessary.

We need a ball carrier who is in the top 4 or 5 in the world in the tight. We don't have anyone near that. I'd hope Morgan, Vunipola and Fearns (though maybe a 6) will keep on pressing for the 8. Waldrom, i have some sympathy for, i think he's better than i've given him credit for. But he's not getting any younger or better, his standard is decent international not world class.

How about starting with Vunipola and then at about 60 mins moving Robshaw there and then bringing on someone like Armitage to play 7?

Or splitting it between vunipola and Morgan. One starting and the other would.be some impact sub

I am not convinced by Vunipola at prop. Marler either, the sooner Corbisiero returns the better.

England need this opportunity without Hartley to find some hookers. Youngs has done well, but someone else should get an opportunity. Give Webber a run.

Launchbury has to come in to the Second Row to start, wood and maybe, the now more athletic Morgan to the backrow.

Care, bar one mistake had a good game, Flood with Goode as back up in open play is working well.

Barrit is a limited lump, good defence, nothing else, time to experiment, as he doesnt compliment Tuilagi and Tuilagi is gonna score tries. Or you move Tuilagi to one wing, Monye on the other and try a more creative centre partnership like Twelvetrees and maybe Farrell, who is a poor flyhalf but not a bad outside centre.

What about bringing in Twelvetrees in for Barrit, Freddie Burns in for owen Farrel, Ben Morgan in for Waldrom. Is Corbesero going to be fit for this week? If yes bring him in, if No. then Leave the rest of the team alone

Maesteg..

Farrell should just not be anywhere near the squad. If we're gonna experiment OC's which im not sure of just yet as Tuilagis the only guy scoring tries...then it would be Joseph or Lowe or Daly etc...

Give Marler the chance to make up for last week...has corbs even been playing well in his comeback?

Is Hartley and Lawes going to be fit? I suspect not.

So the changes i would make....

Palmer for Launchbury
Johnson for Wood
Bring Morgan on to the bench...and bring him on at half time..

Corbs has had 2 games back and I don't think he has played the full 80 minutes in either. He was good last week, and average today. If I was Lancaster I would stick with Marler for the next two games and let him get the experience that he clearly needs. We will learn nothing from throwing Corbisiero back in as we know that he is our best loosehead. I would let him get his fitness and form up at club level and bring him back for the 6 Nations.

I can see very few changes ahead of SA. Launchbury and Wood deserve a start based upon their performances, but that'll probably be it. For me this doesn't address the real problem with the team, which is the 10, 12, 13 axis. I've been very critical of Tuilagi on another thread, but i do recognise what he can bring to a side. However, we cannot keep picking him and Barritt as it offers no attacking threat whatsoever. Until Twelvetrees is ready to step up to international level I feel Tuilagi should be moved to 12 and Flood develops a better miss pass!

If Launchbury doesnt start then questions must be asked of the Management team as he has been visibly the best SR in the squad....

The really frustrating thing I found watching saturdays match was the sheer number of times forwards took the ball standing still! Robshaw was culpable of this on many occasions from memory.

On the team for Saturday I'd only really be calling for players I've been wanting to see anyway:

1.Marler - He was put through the mill on Saturday but if we're picking a young side on potential we've got to let them improve.
2.Youngs - See above.
3.Cole
4.Parling
5.Launchberry
6.Haskell - Desperately need some muscle, he's one of the few who offer us this!
7.Robshaw
8.Waldrom

9.Care - Really poor kicking display on Saturday, his play in attack was ineffective but so was most the teams, deserves the rest of the AI's.
10.Flood

11.Sharples
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton - Needs a kick up the arse but should come good.
15.Goode

16.Paice
17.Corbs - As he's fit I'd get him on the bench at least.
18.Wilson
19.Palmer
20.Wood
21.Youngs
22.Burns - If we're going to play an attacking game we can't afford Farrell on the bench.
23.Joseph

The logic behind most the changes are incredibly simple really - we're clearly trying to play an aggressive running form of rugby so we need to select our best players for this. To that end I've got Haskell and Launchberry in for some go forward and Twelvetrees for his passing game.

There's no point of us having Manu's power at outside centre or Sharples/Ashton outside them if we don't have distributors to get the ball there and 36 is the most talented distributor we've got so we need to play him!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:9. Care- More of the same really, keep kicking well and running when it's on.

Did you not see yesterday?

I'd go:

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Waldroum

9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Brown
12. Barritt
13. Manu
14. Ashton
15. Goode

Lawes(if fit), Morgan, JJ from bench

I'd go with this, except I think it's probably worth giving Marler a chance to redeem himself. I thought Brown did a lot better than Sharples when he came on - whilst not exactly ideal as a winger I think having a left-footed player on the left-wing is a good idea so I would start him at 11 until we can identify a long-term option. Sharples should only be considered for the right-wing.

Morgan seems to be playing well, but I don't think we can have a specialist 8 on the bench and I don't think Waldrom will be dropped. Lawes won't be fit.

Indifferent between the SHs, but I want whoever plays to be in position to sweep up simple chips over the top.

Next week is last chance saloon for Barrit - Tuilagi for me. If they can't look a more convincing partnership then for the ABs I'd either move Tuilagi to 12 and bring JJ in, or I'd go with a Twelvetrees - Tuilagi partnership.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Maesteg..

Farrell should just not be anywhere near the squad. If we're gonna experiment OC's which im not sure of just yet as Tuilagis the only guy scoring tries...then it would be Joseph or Lowe or Daly etc...

Give Marler the chance to make up for last week...has corbs even been playing well in his comeback?

Is Hartley and Lawes going to be fit? I suspect not.

So the changes i would make....

Palmer for Launchbury
Johnson for Woodjoseph
Bring Morgan on to the bench...and bring him on at half time..

Joseph or Lowe or Daly good calls but they are not in the squad and JTH is injured.

Tuilagi is a winger, not a centre. Get a centre inside him and your backline will work. At the moment you have your best winger at centre and two not form wingers out wide. Sack off Sharples and ashton, bring back Moyne.

1. Corbs
2. Webber
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Flood
11. Tuilagi
12. Twelvetrees
13. Farrell
14. Moyne
15. Goode

Maestegmafia - what do you mean by Tuilagi is a winger? I assume you mean that his attributes are better suited to it (don't agree, but understand that view), but he never plays there at club level and doesn't have a kicking game, so it would be a bit harsh to stick him in against the best kick-chase side in the world next weeked.

Monye is also, despite some tries, out of form for Quins and Ashton and Sharples are generally playing pretty well.

Ashton and Sharples have been pretty average for England over the last year, Tuilagi has all the attributes to be a world class winger, and none to be a decent centre other than bulk.

England are effectively playing with three wingers at 11, 13 and 14. Two flyhalfs at 10 and 15, which is working, but the backline are still struggling to create anything as they have struggled every match this year with Barritt and Tuilagi at centre. Both very good players but not complementary.

Tulagi would score more out wide with two good centres inside him.