Shoulder roll

aka the 'Philly shell'

How much credit should we give to fighters that utilise this defence system well?

I just watched Berto-Guerrero and he looked idiotic

One thing's for sure a fighter has to have great skill and reflex to use it well, and I don't think it would be as effective against a Southpaw. Also footwork has to be on point too, if a fighter uses it and dodges punches but doesn't move they're in trouble.

When Mayweather does it its an art.

Berto looked really silly. I could not work out if he was imitating Floyd or Broner
Broner walks his opponents down with it and it looked like Berto was trying to do the same. Its not how Berto fights so why adopt it now.

It takes years to master correctly as Mayweather has shown.

That's very true, in Floyd's earlier fights he had quite a basic defence stance and his hands were up, it's definitely taken years to master.

Mayweather and broner have been using the shoulder roll long before they turned pro hence why they have got used to it and mastered it (mayweather more-so broner who has only really started his career) whereas Berto tried to learn it overnight which is bizarre and never would have worked

It takes reflexes, speed and most importantly the intelligence to know what punch they are going to throw so you can make the correct adjustment. Mayweather's shoulder roll is an art and imo he is the best defensive fighter i have seen (not counting the oldies who I haven't seen unless on YouTube)

It must be so demoralising to be on someone's chest throwing punches in bunches yet none actually land clean

Broner might not be as good as mayweather but he is a real talent and uses the shoulder roll as the base of his freighting offence and has the power mayweather never had so might not need to be as good as mayweather to do well at the higher weights

Floyd seems to use it more when he's against the ropes or he's close to the other fighter whereas Berto appeared to hold that position in centre ring where Guerrero had more space to find the target.

I could be shouted down with that but was just a quick observation from seeing a few highlights.

They ought to outlaw it I think

Steffan, cause of the high elbow at times?

Sugar Floyd Louis wrote:Steffan, cause of the high elbow at times?

Yeah. Plus I find it a very negative tactic

James Toney was quite handy at it back in the day, he could fight in range and was difficult to hit clean in his prime. Some guys rely on reflex but Berto didn't look right doing it.

My old man was laughing at the way he was fighting...

Steffan wrote:

Sugar Floyd Louis wrote:Steffan, cause of the high elbow at times?

Yeah. Plus I find it a very negative tactic

If a fighter can use it to their advantage I don't see why not. Everyone defending the same way wouldn't be good for the sport.

Shoulder roll: Floyd Mayweather, James Toney.
Reflex based defence: Pernell Whitaker.
Shell defence: Winky Wright.
Best at slipping punches: Hmmm... Nicolino Locche, Roberto Duran, Wilfred Benitez, Bernard Hopkins.

It was interesting seeing Berto attempt the shoulder roll, he failed prettty superbly with it. On the outside at times it does look as though as if it is pure reflex based, however it clearly takes a lot of time to master and to truly understand what your opponent is trying to do to you and react accordingly. Berto just didnt understand how to utilise it. No shame in it, but i think he should try a diffferent approach!!

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:Mayweather and broner have been using the shoulder roll long before they turned pro hence why they have got used to it and mastered it (mayweather more-so broner who has only really started his career) whereas Berto tried to learn it overnight which is bizarre and never would have worked

It takes reflexes, speed and most importantly the intelligence to know what punch they are going to throw so you can make the correct adjustment. Mayweather's shoulder roll is an art and imo he is the best defensive fighter i have seen (not counting the oldies who I haven't seen unless on YouTube)

It must be so demoralising to be on someone's chest throwing punches in bunches yet none actually land clean

Broner might not be as good as mayweather but he is a real talent and uses the shoulder roll as the base of his freighting offence and has the power mayweather never had so might not need to be as good as mayweather to do well at the higher weights

Mayweather had good power in the lower weights, it only left him as he moved up and he still hits hard enough to command respect. Broner is still relatively early off in his career, lets see how his power fairs over the coming years when he inevitably starts moving through the weights.

Shoulder roll: Floyd Mayweather, James Toney.
Reflex based defence: Pernell Whitaker + Locche.
Shell defence: Winky Wright.
Best at slipping punches: Hmmm... Nicolino Locche, Roberto Duran, Wilfred Benitez, Bernard Hopkins + Willie Pep.

.

Added a couple. I've never seen reflexes like Locche - just ridiculous. Some of his fights are like something out of a Charlie Chaplin or Buster Keaton film.

Can't forget the originator - Charley Burley. Genius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4

When I saw Berto attempting it, the first words out of my mouth were...

"What the hell is he doing?"