Is Hartley a goner?

In a performance last night, in which his front five was almost pummelled, Hartley was subbed and once again demonstrated temperament issues which the citing officer may have yet to retain an interest via unusual off-ball forearm activities.

I'm a great fan of itchy-sctatchy-yappy hookers of the rugby variety. But losing faith in Dylan.

Can SL trust the man to retain his form and cool and stay on the pitch so long as his coach and not the referee determines?
He's now a grown man and no longer am impetuous youth.

Has Hartley always been a hooker ? He always strikes me as someone who was converted to the front row and just doesn't have the temperament for it.

And I always thought that if he was converted maybe that is why he always stands up in the scrum even when he plays in sides that are going forward. Doesn't seem able to take the physical or mental pressure for the position.

I've no idea Doc but Dylan has been a hooker for as long as I can recall. But whatever his personal rugby history. it's his temperament rather than his skills that I'm questioning.

I think hes a good hooker...and played a big part in our scrum being at the forefront of world rugby...and actually played a big part in our breakdown work turning around.

Lets not throw him on the scrap heap just yet.He just needs to find a little form...as the rest of the saints front row do...

We were lucky that Tom Youngs come in and played like he did..maybe more offensive and aggresive than Hartley has been of late.

This simply means we have two quality hookers fighting for that spot...exactly what lancs and Rowntree want.

Mind should Lindsay or any of the Younger hookers coming through start showing promise...then maybe Hartley should be concerned...

He'll get cited and banned, and rightfully so. To be fair to him, I don't think there are many players that wouldn't lash out at someone who had just dropped a knee on them.

Do you think Best dropped a knee on Hartley or did Hartley trip him as he tried to get up, Best fell on him and Hartley started a wrestle then threw a punch and several forearm smashes onto a prone and pinned Best.

To be fair...

Yes I do. It started with Best on top of Hartley giving it a bit of niggle, handbags from both, Best drops a knee, Hartley turns him over, punches him then smashes with his forearm. Poor behaviour from both.

I'm sure supporters from either side would probably see it differently.

I felt Youngs improved steadily over the 3 Autumn games. His line line out, a bit wobbly against the Aussies was solid against the Kiwis. Was impressed by his ball carrying too. I'd sooner have him than Hartley if his club form continues.

I feel the 6ns will be the test between Hartley and Youngs (T)

He has only just come back from injury so it could be first game blues.

Still finding his feet having been out of the game due to injury. And may stiil not be in the right frame of mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRbnvrQuPw

67.56.

Handbags?

Pot Hale wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRbnvrQuPw

67.56.

Handbags?

Actually if you watch on 65min you can see that it actually starts because Hartley is holding Bests leg to stop him getting back in to defence, Best falls on him (or drops the knee) and the scuffle occurs.

For me Hartley is the instigator and aggressor there but I just think it was a bit of handbags, no one was hurt and talk of a citing is way over the top for me.

Poor Dylan, systematically outplayed by his opposite number, captain and Lions contender.

Besties comments on it here at the end of his post match interview:

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,26691,17138,00.html

What disappointed me most about the hookers handbags wasn't the knee drop or the retaliation it was Best waving his arms at the official on the side lines after he got up. Reminded me forcibly of a footballer and was unnecessary he and his team were in control he should have just got on with it and taken the high road.

If one gets cited then both should and get the same ban but to be honest it wasn't worth the hype.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Poor Dylan, systematically outplayed by his opposite number, captain and Lions contender.

I think you're confusing the team effort with that of the individuals, but in any case, if they're going to be teammates next year he had to let Best claw a little dignity back from the manshaming of the frontrow at the last 6N.

In fairness Best did just get on with it. He tripped over Hartley and Dylan took offence and started battering his head. Best could have retaliated but just looked to the assistant for defence as he should do! Nothing wrong with that!

Just had a look at that - should be a citing and a long ban - you cannot lash out at someones head like that. He has previous. Long ban please.

I'm kind of hoping we get Dylan Hartley at Ravenhill, could be fun.

Remember when we had Leicester last year and Ben Youngs was mouthing off to the referee all match? When he was subbed he headed for the dugout but when he heard the reaction of the Promenade he turned tail and headed for the changing rooms instead. Much to the delight of the Prom!

English side at Ravenhill, no quarter asked nor given. He may well come to consider it a blessing in disguise should he not play. Now we've seen he can be got to and lose the head, he's going to have to deal with the crowd trying to get that reaction out of him. Could be a long afternoon if they don't find a few extra gears.

Rugby is getting soft, they would have shaken hands after the game and Best won't careless about it.

Beyond gouging and malicious cheap shots when a player isn't looking, i have always liked the violent side to rugby, it's the risk and adrenaline that comes with the sport,
I know plenty of people will follow this comment with the sound bite phrases of
"you numpty view" " no room in pro sport for such things" "how can you condone such actions"

I say im sick to frigging death of players getting banned for a bit of a slap about.

Then we have the spear tackle don't get me started on that!!!

I actually agree with that View. Both players had a pop at each other, no harm done. Nothing was openly malicious just some niggle spilling over. Hartley plays some silly buggers, Best reacts with the knee and Hartley repays it with a couple of shots.

In those situations as long as both parties are going at it I see no issue. Third player joining and risking escalation should be penalised (not cited though). It's hand bags, nothing big or nasty thrown.

Is it still the case that a player will only be cited if the victimised player/team make a complaint? Because honestly I can't imagine Best or Ulster making a big deal about it. In the interview after the game he just dismisses it.

For me, it should have been yellow if it was spotted at the time. As i understand it only red card offences lead to a suspension.

Refs and citing officers should get more of a feel for the game, if a player gets punched and knocked out send off the offender or a dirty tackle if the player is injured send off the offender,
if no harm came to anyone just dented pride just get on with the game.

Whilst im at it bring back rucking

view, I see where you coming from, but we can't just decide punishments based on the extent of injury caused. There are some pretty bad incidents where players are just lucky to escape injury even though there was a fair bit of intent on the side of the perpertrator.

Yep intent must be a variable, but of course what we are all as fans are tailoring to is the use of common sense!
The last things in any walk of life you can expect of the ones in control and power is common sense

viewtothegym wrote:Yep intent must be a variable, but of course what we are all as fans are tailoring to is the use of common sense!
The last things in any walk of life you can expect of the ones in control and power is common sense

Intent is the important thing to me. Players seeking to cause injury and/or intimidate should be banned - don't need it in the game. Players who lose their temper and have a bit of handbags in the heat of the moment are not really an issue for me. If we want players putting in their all and playing to the limit, with the best will in the world tempers will flare from time to time.

I don't see any problem with seeking to intimidate as long as its done legally or at least not dangerously.
Hit someone hard in the ribs in a good tackle as they recieve thea ball and drive them back is good rugby

Surely Hartley has to get a ban of some description? The citing guys don't need a complaint to cite someone.

He's holding Best from getting back to the defence - penalty against DH.
When Best looks as though he's breaking free, he grabs the front of his shirt and brings him down on top of him, (no "knee dropping" involved) - penalty against DH.
He throws a punch followed by elbows to the head - Red card DH.
He (and Best) was lucky Afoa pulled him away before he made it worse.

If players aren't allowed to retaliate, because the officials are in control, then the citing officer has to reinforce that principle. Not to do so encourages players to take the Law into their own hands.

I'd stick with Youngs for now.

VictorU3 wrote:I'd stick with Youngs for now.

My fear is that in another demonstration of lack of self-control, Hartley has cooked his own goose in time for Christmas.

Well to be fair...Youngs is the man in posession of the shirt so Hartley shouldnt automatically come back in anyway...and im a little hypocritical there becuase in the past i have said certain players should come straight back

My reasoning though is that Youngs had a big influence on the game. He was very prominent ball in hand...was a physical presence all over the park...and was aggressive...exactly what you want from your hooker.
Yes hes still a work in progress....but huge promise....and he has faced the best and won.

My reckoning is that Hartley is just too loose a canon.

Youngs has done enough to have secured the #2 shirt for the 6Ns.

Whose bum should be warming the bench for England though?

But Hartley hasnt been in any trouble on the pitch whilst with England...as far as my memory goes anyway.

Not sure hes a loose canon just..a little volatile i guess..but he's not the first and wont be the last.

Whose bum should be warming the bench for England though?.

Personally i think it will be Hartley...but if his form doesnt improve...and someone else is playing welll then obvioulsy he could drop out of contention.

The question who else is there to challenge...??

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Hartley hasnt been in any trouble on the pitch whilst with England...as far as my memory goes anyway.

Not sure hes a loose canon just..a little volatile i guess..but he's not the first and wont be the last.

Whose bum should be warming the bench for England though?.

Personally i think it will be Hartley...but if his form doesnt improve...and someone else is playing welll then obvioulsy he could drop out of contention.

The question who else is there to challenge...??

He gnawed on Ferris' finger in the Six Nations, but his temperment with England has been very decent I think. Plays hard and on the edge, but usually controlled.

Tom youngs was taken off at half time yesterday. During the replacement warm-ups in the second half which he attended in a big coat he told a fan 4 rows in front of me that his back was "tight".

He has had this problem before as he gets used to the position (was unable to walk off the plane after we played Aironi last year). It is something that starts to affect his throwing - and there every liklihood it could flare up seriously again and leave him injured for weeks if not months.

Hhmmm thats not good to hear...

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Hartley hasnt been in any trouble on the pitch whilst with England...as far as my memory goes anyway.

Not sure hes a loose canon just..a little volatile i guess..but he's not the first and wont be the last.

Whose bum should be warming the bench for England though?.

Personally i think it will be Hartley...but if his form doesnt improve...and someone else is playing welll then obvioulsy he could drop out of contention.

The question who else is there to challenge...??

He gnawed on Ferris' finger in the Six Nations, but his temperment with England has been very decent I think. Plays hard and on the edge, but usually controlled.

That biting/fishooked citing decision remains very problematic for me as the decision was made blind and went to verbal evidence and 'previous' to determine the balance of evidence. It is so similar to the TMO 'try or no try'/'is there any evidence why I cannot award the try'.

LT

Do you think Youngs back problem could be a serious issue in the future...or does his body just need to get "callused" for the position so to speak?
I have to admit he did impress me in the AI's

greytiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Hartley hasnt been in any trouble on the pitch whilst with England...as far as my memory goes anyway.

Not sure hes a loose canon just..a little volatile i guess..but he's not the first and wont be the last.

Whose bum should be warming the bench for England though?.

Personally i think it will be Hartley...but if his form doesnt improve...and someone else is playing welll then obvioulsy he could drop out of contention.

The question who else is there to challenge...??

He gnawed on Ferris' finger in the Six Nations, but his temperment with England has been very decent I think. Plays hard and on the edge, but usually controlled.

That biting/fishooked citing decision remains very problematic for me as the decision was made blind and went to verbal evidence and 'previous' to determine the balance of evidence. It is so similar to the TMO 'try or no try'/'is there any evidence why I cannot award the try'.

Oh I agree completely, it's a dubious situation. But the call was made and he was banned for it, so it's a scar on his international record!

GeordieFalcon wrote:LT

Do you think Youngs back problem could be a serious issue in the future...or does his body just need to get "callused" for the position so to speak?
I have to admit he did impress me in the AI's

I think over time he should be ok - but it is always a worry with a hooker (as someone who switched to hooker after fracturing 4 vertebrae though, I may be too thick to comment ). This is his first season as a starting hooker at AP/HC level - so it will be tough. I woul dbe amazed if he gets through the season unscathed - but he is built like a brick outhouse now so may be OK.

Yeah hes an absolute tank so hopefully he'll be fine.

So he’s recently back from injury, has an average performance in a game where his team is well outplayed, gets a bit sniffy with his oppo, and will probably (rightfully) have to play his way back into the test side. Sounds ok to me – just needs to re-find his mojo, and keep his niggle.

When I watch the ABs game I think that T Youngs is a bit good, watch out Dylan. Then I watch the SA game and think, hmmm he fully contributed to our loss. Still a long way to go to topple everyone’s favourite hooker.

Then I watch the SA game and think, hmmm he fully contributed to our loss

HHmmm not sure about that Barney...

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Hartley hasnt been in any trouble on the pitch whilst with England...as far as my memory goes anyway.

Should have been tho - a good few times he got away with it. He is a red card waiting to happen and will give away penalties

TJ wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Hartley hasnt been in any trouble on the pitch whilst with England...as far as my memory goes anyway.

Should have been tho - a good few times he got away with it. He is a red card waiting to happen and will give away penalties

Is he though?

He was part of a very disciplined front row for England...that in all honesty hasnt been beaten by anyone recently...and i cant recall him giving away masses of penalties...
I say again for England i think he has been very disciplined on the whole...

He got away with loads - including not having penalties against him for popping up.

He also has got away with loads of cheap shots when playing both for England and club.

he is a liability who should never play internationals again until he can control his temper.

Martin Johnson had to learn how to do it as he was easily provoked into giving away penalties, Hartly is the same. Want a penalty? Wind Hartley up until he loses his rag

I repeat has he though...give me some actual examples and facts?

So many people are anti Hartley (and Ashton) and list all these cheap shots , undisciplined blah blah etc but never give examples...

Im not the biggest Hartley fan...i just think so much criticism comes his way that is totally unwarranted...he's not perfect...but he seems to get chasitised for things that if others had done it...it wouldnt even be regiesterd...

Yes he has - he has been better recently but he is still at it in every game. its a weakness to his game and one easily exploited by opponents.

Even though I am a qualified ref, I must confess to not having a clue what goes on the front row but is it not his props who either pop up or cause him to pop up. It always struck me that when Mujati and the other guy whose name I won't even try to spell were in the ascendancy they were great but as soon as the oppo put any pressure back on them, they tended to fold (metaphorically)
That said, in a bizarre way, if he wasn't a Kiwi who was already cup-tied to England, I would have no problem with him playing for Scotland. Our front row is too nicey-nicey - Hartley brings attitude although, admittedly, a wee bit too much some times.

No he hasn't

TJ wrote:Yes he has - he has been better recently but he is still at it in every game. its a weakness to his game and one easily exploited by opponents.

OK TJ... good list of examples...your argued your case well...