David Haye top 15 all time Heavyweight?

First topic message reminder :

Will Haye be this if he KOs Wlad this summer? He will according to legendary trainer Angelo Dundee.

http://www.boxingscene.com/dundee-i-look-forward-haye-knocking-klitschko-out--38448


Beating Wlad will make Haye the premier fighter of this era.

I, like Dundee, thinks that Haye will KO Wlad this summer but not sure I would place him in the top 15 ever of Heavyweights, not because he is not talented enough but more to do with he hasn't faced the opposition to prove it.

Where would you put Haye on the all time heavyweight list if he beats Wlad.

It is absurd to consider a fighter as a potential top 15 heavyweight whose record consists of:

Barrett - Past it never was and never will be.
Valuev - Haye did worse than an ancient shot Holyfield. Ran like a thief and squeaked by in one of the most boring title fights in recent memory.
Ruiz - Haye looks gassed and walks into plenty of jabs against one of the worst former champs in the history of the division. This was an old past it Ruiz.
Harrison - Took Haye 3 rounds to muster the courage to knock over a guy who is too frightened to try and hit back.

If Haye beats Wlad, all he has done is get himself out of the Seldon, Ruiz et al group of former belt holders.

If he loses and he is odds on to do so and then retires, I'd rand him alongside Akinwande and Seldon.

A lot of ifs, buts and maybes their. He will never be a top 15 all time heavyweight.
His record is Barrett, Valuev, Ruiz and Audley. Even if you add the K bros, Adamek, Solis, Arreola and 3 or 4 up and comers it's still not happening.

Good points Pretty Boy, i made a point on another article that even if he were to beat the brothers, and even add a couple of up and comers like you say i would struggle to have him in my top 100 ATG list. In terms of heavyweights, if he were to do the above, i could maybe have him in my top 30 ATG heavyweights.

You missed my original point prettyboy, which was that it would take a ridiculous turn of events and luck for Haye to be ranked top 15 of all time. It's never going to happen IMO!

wow_junky wrote:You missed my original point prettyboy, which was that it would take a ridiculous turn of events and luck for Haye to be ranked top 15 of all time. It's never going to happen IMO!

Sorry mate I never read it because their was some Tyson arguement going on earlier in the thread I thought you were for the idea. I don't think it's an opinion it won't happen seems like a fact to me.

The Galveston Giant wrote:Good points Pretty Boy, i made a point on another article that even if he were to beat the brothers, and even add a couple of up and comers like you say i would struggle to have him in my top 100 ATG list. In terms of heavyweights, if he were to do the above, i could maybe have him in my top 30 ATG heavyweights.

The problem is with the top 15-20 Heavyweights and Haye is the top 15-20 guys are mostly big hitters like Holmes, Frazier, Foreman and even Tyson although I'm not sure he makes my top 15. The first time any of these guys caught Haye who is chinny the fight would be over.

prettyboykev wrote:

The Galveston Giant wrote:Good points Pretty Boy, i made a point on another article that even if he were to beat the brothers, and even add a couple of up and comers like you say i would struggle to have him in my top 100 ATG list. In terms of heavyweights, if he were to do the above, i could maybe have him in my top 30 ATG heavyweights.

The problem is with the top 15-20 Heavyweights and Haye is the top 15-20 guys are mostly big hitters like Holmes, Frazier, Foreman and even Tyson although I'm not sure he makes my top 15. The first time any of these guys caught Haye who is chinny the fight would be over.

It's not always about direct head-to-head comparison though, is it? Otherwise we'd all have Tyson above the likes of smaller guys like Duran, P****iao, Leonard, etc in overall P4P lists.

BALTIMORA wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

The Galveston Giant wrote:Good points Pretty Boy, i made a point on another article that even if he were to beat the brothers, and even add a couple of up and comers like you say i would struggle to have him in my top 100 ATG list. In terms of heavyweights, if he were to do the above, i could maybe have him in my top 30 ATG heavyweights.

The problem is with the top 15-20 Heavyweights and Haye is the top 15-20 guys are mostly big hitters like Holmes, Frazier, Foreman and even Tyson although I'm not sure he makes my top 15. The first time any of these guys caught Haye who is chinny the fight would be over.

It's not always about direct head-to-head comparison though, is it? Otherwise we'd all have Tyson above the likes of smaller guys like Duran, P****iao, Leonard, etc in overall P4P lists.

It can be when you're dealing with guys at the same weight and I am I'm talking Hevyweights nothing else. So a head to head is the best comparison I could come up with. Records can have holes picked in them, it's pretty much a fact that Haye couldn't live with the great heavyweights.

alma wrote:Tyson doesn't make a lot of people's top 15 all time greats. You can't seriously tell me Tyson 1985-say 1996 wouldn't have beaten Haye comfortably

I never said that I said although I'm not sure Tyson would make my top 15 I haven't did one so wouldn't be to sure on that. I wouls have him to beat Haye in a couple of rounds. Like I said the first time Haye gets caught it's over.

prettyboykev wrote:

alma wrote:Tyson doesn't make a lot of people's top 15 all time greats. You can't seriously tell me Tyson 1985-say 1996 wouldn't have beaten Haye comfortably

I never said that I said although I'm not sure Tyson would make my top 15 I haven't did one so wouldn't be to sure on that. I wouls have him to beat Haye in a couple of rounds. Like I said the first time Haye gets caught it's over.

I think 2 rounds is ridiculous ...
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There's no way Haye makes it to the second round

88Chris05 wrote:

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:None of the names you mentioned would stand out in the HW division today.

If you honestly believe that Tucker, Tubbs, Thomas and so on weren't better boxers and technicians than Solis, Ibragimov and Peter, then you simply haven't ever watched them fight. There can be no other explanation at all. At least the likes of Thomas and Tucker knew how to work behind a jab and turned up in the ring looking in good shape.

Not sure why I'm trying to debate with you though, to be honest. Anyone who describes this generation of Heavyweights as a 'golden era', regardless of context, has some seriously skewed views.

Tucker turned up to the ring off his head on crack, and even then was probably Tysons best opponent. Tuceker is a guy who could have been very good if he wasn't a drug addict, but he was. Before he fought Tyson he'd had one title fight, against Buster Douglas, and his career best win was probably a SD over fellow crack addict Oliver McCall.

Chris Byrd, Peter, Chagaev, Ibragimov..etc were all easily on par with the likes of Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith, Bruno etc.

oxring wrote:

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:WK beat 6 of the top 10 ranked guys of 2005. The other 4 being tied up to Don Kings WBA merry-go-round.

So he didn't "clean up" then, having missed 4 of the top 10. Simples.

Being serious - its your argument that Wlad "cleared up" HW. Without fighting every available contender OR winning every belt. Even when his big bro was away.

If we're abusing Tyson for not fighting Holyfield (his main rival) at first (he was next up after Douglas, though) then why aren't we abusing WK for not fighting Vit or Valuev?

Exactly Oxring.

If you say WK did not clean up at HW because he never fought his main rival (VK) you have to admit that Tyson didn't clean up at HW because he never fought his main rival.

Anyway back to topic.

Would Haye be considered top 15 HW of all time.....who cares. I don't get the importance of comparing old fighters to new, boxing has moved on let's look forward.

Haye can clean up the whole HW division and to me he will not make it into the top 100 HW. He would rank a few places above Rocky though.

This top 25 of all time stuff, is it based on relative achievments or on who would beat who?

alma wrote:I agree with Azania.

Don't make a habit of it he will lead you down a slippy slope.

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:This top 25 of all time stuff, is it based on relative achievments or on who would beat who?

It depends on who the fighter is it seems. Rocky went 49-0 beating stiffs and old men and some have him in their top 10 ATG in any weight. SRL beat 4 ATG and many done have him in their top 15 ATG.

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:This top 25 of all time stuff, is it based on relative achievments or on who would beat who?

As it's the same weight I would base it mainly on who I think would beat who in the prime of their careers.

prettyboykev wrote:

alma wrote:I agree with Azania.

Don't make a habit of it he will lead you down a slippy slope.

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

alma wrote:I agree with Azania.

Don't make a habit of it he will lead you down a slippy slope.

Don't be mad mate I just meant he would end up a Rocky hating Saddler loving kind of guy.

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

alma wrote:I agree with Azania.

Don't make a habit of it he will lead you down a slippy slope.

Don't be mad mate I just meant he would end up a Rocky hating Saddler loving kind of guy.

Hate Rocky? Me? Dont be silly. Rocky is a major source of entertainment for me. Muck like benny Hill running around at the end of his shows. Rocky M is pure comedy value.

Saddler > pep . FACT!!!

prettyboykev wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

The Galveston Giant wrote:Good points Pretty Boy, i made a point on another article that even if he were to beat the brothers, and even add a couple of up and comers like you say i would struggle to have him in my top 100 ATG list. In terms of heavyweights, if he were to do the above, i could maybe have him in my top 30 ATG heavyweights.

The problem is with the top 15-20 Heavyweights and Haye is the top 15-20 guys are mostly big hitters like Holmes, Frazier, Foreman and even Tyson although I'm not sure he makes my top 15. The first time any of these guys caught Haye who is chinny the fight would be over.

It's not always about direct head-to-head comparison though, is it? Otherwise we'd all have Tyson above the likes of smaller guys like Duran, P****iao, Leonard, etc in overall P4P lists.

It can be when you're dealing with guys at the same weight and I am I'm talking Hevyweights nothing else. So a head to head is the best comparison I could come up with. Records can have holes picked in them, it's pretty much a fact that Haye couldn't live with the great heavyweights.

I agree with you on Haye, I'm just making the point that it's not ALWAYS as clear-cut as comparing head-to-head. 'S all.

WUM
I'm not biting mate go on the ATG P4P top ten thread and see how many have Saddler and how many have Pep.

If Haye beats Wlad and beats Vitali in that order he becomes the best heavyweight of a generation. Like it or not that is an achievement in itself and achievements not careers get people into the hall of fame (Barry McGuigan).

Interestingly enough, Haye is quoted on radio today insisting he will go on beyond October 31st.

Michaels, Sean wrote:If Haye beats Wlad and beats Vitali in that order he becomes the best heavyweight of a generation. Like it or not that is an achievement in itself and achievements not careers get people into the hall of fame (Barry McGuigan).

Interestingly enough, Haye is quoted on radio today insisting he will go on beyond October 31st.

How long you classing a gneration as? Lewis retired in 2003 and surely you aren't saying if he beats the K's he's better than Lewis?

I would have thought Haye and Lewis can be classed as fighters of different generations fairly comfortably. Lewis made his pro debut in '89, Haye in '02.

Haye would need to KO both Wlad and Vitali to even be considered for a HW ATG top 25 place. He has an impressive CW career and would be highly regarded if he were to KO one or both Klitschkos, but if he retires near to when he says he will then he just wouldn't have had the longevity. Plus, if he were to KO Wlad and Vitali who would he fight next? Adamek or Povetikin would be ok, but they'd be a step down. There would be nothing to play for. Haye would be a victim of his times (in terms of getting the chance to build a legacy) just as much as he may prove to benefit from how weak they were (in terms of getting a title shot so early in the first place).

Michaels, Sean wrote:I would have thought Haye and Lewis can be classed as fighters of different generations fairly comfortably. Lewis made his pro debut in '89, Haye in '02.

Cool I thought you were putting him above Lewis. So what you're saying is if Haye beats the K's he the best Heavyweight of an awful generation?

prettyboykev wrote:

Michaels, Sean wrote:I would have thought Haye and Lewis can be classed as fighters of different generations fairly comfortably. Lewis made his pro debut in '89, Haye in '02.

Cool I thought you were putting him above Lewis. So what you're saying is if Haye beats the K's he the best Heavyweight of an awful generation?

Better than a quite a few other generations.

To an extent.

A lot of people will argue that Vitali would have beaten Lewis had it not been for the cuts. The K's are an enigma because it is hard to tell how theywould have done in different eras. I for one believe that their massive physical presence would have led to dominance in a lot od HW eras

I said before I wouldn't have them in my top 15 ATG Heavyweights but 1 or both would maybe make 20-15. Like you said the lack of real opponents dents their legacy. Marciano suffered from that a bit although he still gets into most top 10 ATG Heavyweight lists.

Michaels, Sean wrote:To an extent.

A lot of people will argue that Vitali would have beaten Lewis had it not been for the cuts. The K's are an enigma because it is hard to tell how theywould have done in different eras. I for one believe that their massive physical presence would have led to dominance in a lot od HW eras

Not only that but they have excellent fundamentals, very good technique, they do lack flair and subtle skills, but they do a lot better in the basic departments than a lot of heavyweight champions.

Oh brilliant any debate about any heavyweight still brings up the same predictable comments

Also never seen Marciano rated in any top ten p4p lists which is almost impossible for someone conisdered to be no higher than 5/6 in his own weight.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Oh brilliant any debate about any heavyweight still brings up the same predictable comments

Also never seen Marciano rated in any top ten p4p lists which is almost impossible for someone conisdered to be no higher than 5/6 in his own weight.

I said top 10 ATG heavyweights list.

Problem is that the Klitschkos and Haye dont really offer much to each other.

The two brothers are probably fringe top 15-20 heavies now as things stand. I dont think beating Haye does much for them in this regard. They are expected to beat Haye and he isnt rated as a great heavy. So theres not much to gain. Im not sure how history will rate the two brothers. Undervalued in the U.S and overvalued in Europe wold be my guess (assuming Haye is dealt with).

Haye has more to gain by beating the brothers but it kind of hinges on where the brothers rank overall. Paradoxically, should Haye beat them, their overall status will slump down significantly in my eyes. Thus Haye doesnt gain that much from beating them as they will be seen as not that good and/or over the hill in Vitalis case.

At the end of the day if Haye beats them he will have almost no longetivity and 2 solid wins over a (then suspect Wlad who would not be top 15 material) and an ancient Vitali (might scrape top 15). Is this enough to be considered top 15 material? I doubt it.

Very well put Manos and think it sums up the situation perfectly

David Haye top 15 all time Heavyweight?

Come on there is no debate about Haye being in the top15 of all time
I have
Lewis
Bruno
Fitzsimmons
Cooper
Bugner
Farr
Mason
Bombardier” Billy Wells
Ahead at the moment above him...............

What top 15 IN THE WORLD.... ha ha ha April 1st was weeks ago.. Sorry i thought top 15 British

For me Haye sneaks into the top 20 with comprehensive wins over Wlad and Vitali, plus 4-5 impressive defences against quality in the region of Povetkin, Adamek and Chagaev. At present he would not be anywhere near the top 50.

Boxing Challenges

How would Holyfield have rated if he'd beaten Buster Douglas and George Foreman then called it a day?

Personally for me Valuev was a good win for Haye 7"2 awkward and proved he could completely change himself as a fighter, John ruiz not largely impressive, however you have to admit the guy had never even looked close to being stopped in a long time, one punch from Haye was enough to knock him straight down. so the manner of victory is enough to show people how good he is, I'd love to see Haye beat Adamek and others as I'm sure he will and I'm confident he'll take out the Klits, but Top 15 compared to all the other great HW's not a chance... Top 25 maybe...