Greatest: Round 2: Choose your 9

Rules and context here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38622-the-greatest-introduction-the-rules

Previous threads here:
https://www.606v2.com/t38819-greatest-round-2-choose-your-15#1753473
https://www.606v2.com/t38887-greatest-round-2-choose-your-11-14
https://www.606v2.com/t38898-greatest-round-2-choose-your-13
https://www.606v2.com/t38921-greatest-round-2-choose-your-12
https://www.606v2.com/t38949-greatest-round-2-choose-your-10

Brief:
• Vote for one player only in the scrum half position.
• Votes are cancellable so in the event that it seems the votes for the 10 candidate are going in a certain direction, feel free to change your choice if you feel another player would complement the fly half better.
• It can be assumed that players in the amateur era would have been just as dominant vis a vis their historical peers if they had followed professional conditioning programmes.

Your shortlist (in no particular order):

1. Agustín Pichot
Argentina – 71 caps

Very few players can or do adopt the mantle of being a national talisman, spokesperson and catalyst for their entire country's further development of the game of rugby but Agustin Pichot took up the challenge of bringing worldwide recognition to Argentinean rugby where former talisman Hugo Porta left off. The pair never played together at Test level, but had they done so, they would have formed a formidable axis - Porta the composed, skilful brain of the side at fly-half, and Pichot at scrum-half the cajoling, vocal heart.

Pichot made a try-scoring debut for the Pumas against Australia in 1995 and went on to play in his first World Cup later that year, at the age of 19. At the time he was playing for Club Atlético San Isidro (CASI) in Buenos Aries and was, like most of the Argentinean rugby community, fiercely amateur in his approach to the game. Repeated offers from professional northern hemisphere clubs were rebuffed until his father convinced him to take up an offer from Richmond.

His development at international level continued during his time in England, including a run to the quarter-finals of the 1999 World Cup. Pichot left Richmond for Bristol in the same year, where he became a fan's favourite for four enjoyable seasons, much in the same way that he has at international level, with his style of earthy leadership lending him credibility with supporters, if not fondness from his opponents.

Pichot captained the Pumas for the first time in 2000, in a 34-23 win over a touring Ireland side. While he was only a temporary choice, it would be in the position of captain of his country that Pichot would make his most telling contributions to the state of Argentinean rugby. Pichot led the Pumas into their disappointing 2003 World Cup campaign, exiting at the group stages following a damaging opening loss to the hosts, Australia. By this time he had left the Memorial Ground and was playing his club rugby with French heavyweights Stade Francais, winning a Top 14 title in 2004.

Pichot's Puma side continued to mature as the professional era took hold, with many of their key players playing in the leagues of Europe. The balance of amateurism and professionalism inherent to Argentinean sides was encapsulated by Pichot. A perceived injustice in their exclusion from top-tier competition and a lack of international recognition spurred them on in claiming more high-profile scalps.

England and Wales were both defeated in the summer of 2006, and Pichot's men were in good shape going into the 2007 World Cup where, in a sensational opening match at the Stade de France, a fired up, physically dominant Argentina downed the hosts, France, 17-12. Pichot harried and harassed the opposition, motivating his side to extreme lengths of commitment while the next great Argentinean outside-half, Juan Martin Hernandez, terrorised the French back three. The French were felled again before the tournament was over, in the third-place play-off, as Argentina made many friends among the fans who filled every stadium along the way.

Pichot retired from international rugby following the tournament, turning down a farewell Test against South Africa as he felt he could not do the jersey justice. He now plays his club rugby for Racing Metro 92 Paris, and is safe in the knowledge that he gave everything for his country and rightly deserves to be held as one of its many sporting greats. He leaves behind a huge roster of achievement – not least his two Top 14 Championships, his 3rd and 5th place World Cup finishes and no Argentinian is every likely to break his cap record for the Barbarians.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UgAp7gEsBs

2. Gareth Edwards
British & Irish Lions – 10 caps, Wales – 53 caps

One or two of you may already be familiar with this player.

Two countries more than any others are intrinsically linked with the sport of rugby union. One is New Zealand and the other is Wales. And in the history of Welsh rugby, one player more than any other can be regarded as the greatest exponent of the game that Wales has ever produced.

Edwards' sporting prowess was evident from an early age, as he won a scholarship to Millfield School in Somerset in England. Renowned for its sporting credentials, the school also nurtured the rugby talents of JPR Williams, as well Matt Perry, Olly Morgan and Anthony Allen in more recent times. After school he attended Cardiff College of Education, and played his club rugby for Cardiff.

Edwards played at scrum-half and his career coincided with the golden age of Welsh rugby. He possessed the perfect body shape and size for a No.9, and combined both pace and strength to devastating effect. Add in near-perfect kicking, passing and defensive games, as well as a keen eye for the try line, and it doesn't take an enormous stretch of imagination to see why Edwards invariably tops the polls in any vote for the greatest player of all time.

Edwards played for his country on 53 occasions between 1967-1978, scoring 88 points with 20 tries in the process. What is remarkable is that Edwards is one of that rare breed who played every one of his international matches consecutively - an incredible feat. Edwards also captained his country 13 times.

He played his first game for Wales aged 19 in 1967 against France at the Parc des Princes in Paris. Wales lost that match 20-14, but consistent success was just around the corner. Edwards is the youngest player to have captained Wales, a record he set in 1968 against Scotland, when he was just 20 years old. Wales' domination of the Five Nations was complete during Edwards's career, when he helped them to win the title seven times, with three Grand Slam seasons. Edwards finished his career against France in Cardiff in 1978, and this time they won, 16-7.

Edwards played in Welsh teams full of stars, most relevantly Barry John and Phil Bennett at fly-half, and Mervyn Davies at No.8. With such talent close by on the pitch, you might think that Edwards led a charmed life, but this was not the case. The scrum-half outshone these luminaries, and was more often than not the best player in a brilliant team.

In addition to his 53 Wales caps he made 10 appearances for the British & Irish Lions, featuring on the 1968, 1971 and 1974 tours. The second tour, to New Zealand, is still the only victorious Lions tour to the country; while the third, to South Africa in 1974, was the greatest ever Lions jaunt, in which the tourists played 22 matches and remained unbeaten throughout. Edwards played in all eight Test matches on these two tours, winning five, drawing two and losing one.

As befitting his status as one of Rugby Union's greatest ever players, if not the greatest, Edwards also scored what is regarded as the greatest try of all time, in the greatest game of all time, playing in the famous black and white hoops of the Barbarians.

The Baa-Baas met the touring All Blacks at Cardiff Arms Park in 1973 in a game which the scratch side won 11-23. It was an incredible spectacle, set-up by Edwards' try in the opening minutes. Phil Bennett received the ball deep in his own half, and set off, beating three players with his slashing side step, before JPR Williams took it on. It then went through four or five pairs of hands before Edwards popped up wide of the left. He still had 30 yards to go, but he scorched down the touchline, finishing with a full-length dive in the corner. A stunning try scored by a player that truly could do anything on the rugby pitch.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwCbG4I0QyA

3. Joost van der Westhuizen
South Africa – 89 caps

Regarded as one of the greatest scrum-halves the game has ever seen, Van der Westhuizen was capped a total of 89 times during a glittering 10-year international career and was a key member of the Springboks side that lifted the 1995 Rugby World Cup.

His outstanding service to the Springboks included a total of three Rugby World Cups and he was given the honour of leading his country into the 1999 showpiece. He retired from international rugby as the most capped Springbok of all time - a record that has since been passed by Percy Montgomery, John Smit and Victor Matfield. The no-nonsense No.9 also crossed for an incredible, record breaking 38 test tries in his career - a mark he now shares with winger Bryan Habana.

His career test try tally of 38 still makes him the scrum-half with the most tries in Test Rugby and his status as one of the finest players ever was evidenced by his presence in the 2007 induction class of the International Rugby Hall of Fame.

With his uncharacteristically big build for a scrum-half (fully 6'1" and 14 stone), he was known as an aggressive and fast runner and ferocious defender. Van der Westhuizen was best suited to a very physical type of game, often mixing it up with the forwards. He enjoyed his greatest success when playing alongside Chester Williams and the great fullback, Andre Joubert, especially when they attacked at pace around the blind side of the scrum.

He played in the 1995 and 1999 Rugby World Cups. In the former he defended heroically, famously tackling New Zealand's giant wing Jonah Lomu, amongst others leading to the Springbok World Cup victory. Van der Westhuizen's strengths as a rugby player lay in his dangerous ability to 'snipe' around the fringes of rucks, often leading to tries, as well as his fearless defence. Van der Westhuizen was also an inspirational player and captain, a talismanic figure in many successful Springbok sides. Van der Westhuizen played in the 2003 Rugby World Cup before eventually retiring from international rugby, having won every tournament trophy available to a South African rugby player aside from the Super 12 or a series victory over a British and Irish Lions touring team.

His honours include the Currie Cup twice (1998 & 2002), a Tri-Nations title (1998) and the World Cup (1995). In July 2004 he joined Supersport as a commentator.

On 12 May 2011, Van der Westhuizen's publicist announced that he had a muscle related neural disease, believed to be a form of motor neurone disease. Doctors at the Cleveland Clinic in the United States have since confirmed that tragically the former Springbok captain has Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis and has only an 80% chance of living for two to five years from diagnosis.

Sample footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4EQaOdoaUY

The best player the world has seen ever. Gareth Edwards

Agustín Pichot is a very surprise inclusion ???

Tough call between Joost and Gareth, Joost was a fantastic player and rightly one of the few that you could ever put in similar bracket as Gareth Edwards. Ken Catchpole was up there too.

Having seen all those play I have no doubt that Gareth Edwards is the greatest and would have been the Greatest had he played in any era. He re-invented the position, developed the skill-set, perfected everything and played with passion, endeavour and an ability to read the opposition weaknesses like no other since.

Joost, although I hear Edwards wasn't a bad player.

Joost

Biltong wrote:Joost

Morning Bill

As I said tough call, I think the reason I put Edwards ahead was that he invented a way of playing the game from scrum half that inspired so many others after. What was your reason for Joost ahead of Edwards...???

Joost for me. No one put terror into the opposition quite the same.

Very tough call and perhaps I'm showing my lack of age in not appreciating Edwards enough. I hear he was some player.

Edwards although I'm pleased to see Pichot get a nod as well.

I do think the hype and awe around that Barbarians try is a bit OTT as well now too.

yappysnap wrote:I do think the hype and awe around that Barbarians try is a bit OTT as well now too.

Yeah, me too. The tackling was awful, like they thought they were playing touch.

yappysnap wrote:Edwards although I'm pleased to see Pichot get a nod as well.

I do think the hype and awe around that Barbarians try is a bit OTT as well now too.

That try was very little to do with Edwards, much more to do with Bennett and John Dawes.

Here are a few other highlights from Edwards career

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghe96LfUTcI

Why do people insist on putting cruddy music on highlights clips?

maestegmafia wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Edwards although I'm pleased to see Pichot get a nod as well.

I do think the hype and awe around that Barbarians try is a bit OTT as well now too.

That try was very little to do with Edwards, much more to do with Bennett and John Dawes.

Here are a few other highlights from Edwards career

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghe96LfUTcI

Without starting a flame war, the last pass looks a little forward and some of the attempted tackling shows very poor technique.

The problem with comparing eras is that prior to Professionalism many teams had average players with even less average fitness. So real skill & quality stood out & players like Edwards were so much better than their counterparts.

Nowadays most teams club & country are fit, well drilled, have good technique throughout their squads.

However, I started playing & watching rugby in awe of the likes of Edwards both player & man so for me he is a childhood hero & it is difficult to put Professional era players above him even though they are/were fitter, stronger & maybe faster than he was.

Very different attributes to the other two, but the Little General for me

ChequeredJersey wrote:Very different attributes to the other two, but the Little General for me

General?

Mate, he said "Agustin Pichot" not "Augusto Pinochet".

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The problem with comparing eras is that prior to Professionalism many teams had average players with even less average fitness. So real skill & quality stood out & players like Edwards were so much better than their counterparts.

Nowadays most teams club & country are fit, well drilled, have good technique throughout their squads.

However, I started playing & watching rugby in awe of the likes of Edwards both player & man so for me he is a childhood hero & it is difficult to put Professional era players above him even though they are/were fitter, stronger & maybe faster than he was.

True BigTrev - I mention it in the posts every time but I'll say it again - given that amateurs played amateurs and pros played pros at their respective times, I've always believed it's safe to assume that if Edwards were playing now and was put through the same modern conditioning programmes as everyone else he would (all other things being equal) be equally as dominant in the professional era as he was in the amateur era.

Although what he makes of these new modern, crazy balls that don't soak up water and are perfectly symmetrical so don't fly around like a kite in mid-air is anyone's guess...

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:Joost

Morning Bill

As I said tough call, I think the reason I put Edwards ahead was that he invented a way of playing the game from scrum half that inspired so many others after. What was your reason for Joost ahead of Edwards...???

Maes never saw Edwards play.

For me international sport starts in 1990. Anything before that we hardly saw. Our politics took away a lot from our country, unfortunately. In my fomring years we had no access to international sport.

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:Joost

Morning Bill

As I said tough call, I think the reason I put Edwards ahead was that he invented a way of playing the game from scrum half that inspired so many others after. What was your reason for Joost ahead of Edwards...???

Maes never saw Edwards play.

For me international sport starts in 1990. Anything before that we hardly saw. Our politics took away a lot from our country, unfortunately. In my fomring years we had no access to international sport.

True...!

I posted a link for you to have a look at the man above.

Edwards. So dominant. Judging the best ever is always difficult, but it's pretty safe to say that he is the best non-All Black in history

Good job in selection by the posters there!

Edwards was just electric, Joost had the best pass and game management of any SH I've seen and what Pichot did for Argentine rugby over the years is just incredible.

For his electric attacking play I've gone for Edwards just over Joost however.

joost vanderwesthuisan.

His pace around the park and passing game was the very best.

Joost

I went for Joost as the best 9 in the professional era. I didnt see enough of Edwards but he continues to be commonly regarded as one of the top 2 or 3 to ever play the game in any pos.Joost would certainly fire withn the rest of this side, many he will probably have played against or with.