Castres V Ulster match thread

[neilthom7]

So we are into the final round of group matches and this Saturday 19th January at 1.35pm Castre will take to the field V Ulster. Now Ulster are already guaranteed to qualify from the group and Castre are out but there is plenty riding on this for Ulster namely a home QF. If Ulster were to win and get the try bonus point they would definitely get a home Quarter final anything else and then it is down to other teams results as well. The biggest thing for Ulster will be to avoid any QF trips to France. The biggest worry for Ulster going into the match is now a big injury list. It is possible Ulster if all of their doubtful players don't make it will not be able to field 3 backs on the bench. So what are your predictions guys?
The match will be on Sky Sports 3 and I will update this thread with teams as we know them.

Ulster
(15-9): Gilroy; Trimble, Cave, Wallace, Allen; Pienaar, Marshall;
(1-8): Court, Best, Afoa, Stevenson, McComb, Diack, Henry (capt), Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): Herring, Black, Fitzpatrick, Henderson, McComish, Heaney, Jackson, Cochrane.

Castres
P Bernard, M Evans, S Bai, R Lamerat, M Garvey, R Tales, R Kockott; Y Forestier, M-A Rallier, A Peikrishvili, M Rolland, C Samson, M Babillot, P Faasalele, P Wannenburg.

Replacements: B Mach, S Taumoepeau, M Lazar, I Tekori, T Lacrampe, J Bornman, P Bonnefond, M Andreu.

[Standulstermen]

I think we have enough about us to get the win. It depends a lot on how committed castres are to the game.

Our first target should be to win (thus avoiding the 6th seed) and beyond that a BP win would be dreamland.

For me, while I want ulster to get a home QF I will be away on a stag doo that weekend anyway (seriously not impressed) so I won't be at ravers either way!

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I think we have enough about us to get the win. It depends a lot on how committed castres are to the game.

Our first target should be to win (thus avoiding the 6th seed) and beyond that a BP win would be dreamland.

For me, while I want ulster to get a home QF I will be away on a stag doo that weekend anyway (seriously not impressed) so I won't be at ravers either way!

You'll have to come down to the RDS the week before so. For Ulster's warm up.

Here's hoping you have enough to get Sarries in Ravenhill and put them out. Youse lads may be Ireland's best hope for the cup.

[neilthom7]

I wouldn't put yourself down Jenny I think if Leinster make it through they are in with a real shout because they are getting their players back and starting to play well. I hope we can win v Castres a bonus point would be awesome off course but win first so as to avoid the big French teams. It will be very interesting to see who does and does not make it back from injury for this one. Payne is probably the doubtful one we would most like back as we don't have another straight up option at fullback.

[Standulstermen]

I still think only one of Leinster or munster will get through. I just can't see Toulon being overly concerned as their try count is ridiculous so they are guaranteed a home 1/4. Ulster are the only leading team that can challenge them realistically and that would require a BP as I say because Toulons trys scored is something ridiculous.

Against that backdrop I suspect montpelier will beat them.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I still think only one of Leinster or munster will get through.

You could well be right.

Love to see them both though. At the expense of Montpelier and Leicester/Toulouse

But if it has to be just one........

[The Great Aukster]

Toulon aren't guaranteed a home QF if they don't top their group! They should go out with the mindset of winning their last game or they could come unstuck.

[Artful_Dodger]

Provisional Ulster squad to play Castres Olympique, Heineken Cup Pool 4, Saturday 19th January, Stade Pierre Antoine (kick off 14.35):

Forwards (14): Rory Best, Callum Black, John Afoa, Nigel Brady, Mike McComish, Lewis Stevenson, Declan Fitzpatrick, Roger Wilson, Neil McComb, Iain Henderson, Tom Court, Chris Henry, Robbie Diack, Rob Herring.

Backs (12): Paddy Wallace, Niall O’Connor, Ruan Pienaar, Craig Gilroy, Paddy Jackson, Chris Cochrane, Paul Marshall, Andrew Trimble, Michael Heaney, Jared Payne, Darren Cave, Michael Allen

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

If Jackson and Payne are really out you could be looking at something like

Tom Court
Rory Best
John Afoa
Lewis Stevenson
Iain Henderson
Robbie Diack
Chris Henry
Roger Wilson

Paul Marshall
Ruan Pienaar
Craig Gilroy
Paddy Wallace
Darren Cave
Andrew Trimble
Michael Allen

Rob Herring
Callum Black
Declan Fitzpatrick
Neil McComb
Mike McComish
Michael Heaney
Niall O’Connor
Chris Cochrane

I'm sure Ulster fans would shuffle that about a little, but it looks a bit scary

[Notch]

Jackson is expected to be fit. But Jared Payne is touch and go.

Sods law; the game we have the most injuries for is the hardest away game of the group stages! If we had beaten Northampton at Ravenhill we wouldn't be in this situation We still need other things to go our way as well as winning to get that home draw

[WillyGilly]

Surely we'd switch Gilroy to FB and put Allen on the wing no?

[WillyGilly]

I really don't like the idea of getting players to play through injuries. Risks an awful lot of damage especially in a full blooded sport like rugby.

[Notch]

Yeah, I doubt he'd be asked to play if we had another specialist fullback in the squad. Obviously the next most experienced players at fullback are Wallace and Pienaar and they are both needed inside.

[Artful_Dodger]

When he joined didn't Pienaar say he definitely wouldn't play at 15? I think he said he came to play at 9, would play 10 at a push, but definitely not 15. I suppose in the current circumstances he probably would if asked, but there is no way he will be as he's indispensable at half back.

[neilthom7]

I would think if they were going to ask one of them 2 it would be Wallace asked to play fullback.

[toml]

Is it just me or does Paddy J look like he's been carrying a knock for weeks. Mark wants to keep RUAN at 9 and the other 10s aren't up to HC

[neilthom7]

I think you are right regarding Jackson and Payne tbh neither looks comfortable in a few weeks tbh they might be better off resting Paddy to let him recover properly. The problem is we are so short on backs at the minute especially if Payne don't make it that we kind of need to play him.

[Standulstermen]

(15-9): Gilroy; Trimble, Cave, Wallace, Allen; Pienaar, Marshall;
(1-8): Court, Best, Afoa, Stevenson, McComb, Diack, Henry (capt), Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): Herring, Black, Fitzpatrick, Henderson, McComish, Heaney, Jackson, Cochrane.

Team named. SUFTUM!!!!

[clivemcl]

Interesting to play Pienaar at 10. More interesting that they have Heaney on the bench too.

Pienaar must only be playing a half or something. And Heaney will replace Marshall for the last 10/15. Good to get Pienaar gametime at 10 again, its been a while. Need to keep him faily familiar there if Jackson were ever to be injured.

[neilthom7]

I think Jackson is injured to be honest and Anscombe has decided to rest him now so that he will be ready in future weeks. He probably has him on the bench just in case

[Kingshu]

Not sure what to make of it, Gilroy fullback, has to be done,

backs on bench are all young, but there are a lot of injuries, oh why D'arcy did you have to get hurt, this would have been your chance.

[Don Alfonso]

Slightly off topic but:

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchdaytv?play=media&id=14044

and

"Pienaar eager to nail down contract extension with Ulster"
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/pienaar-eager-to-nail-down-contract-extension-with-ulster-3356700.html

The Indo over-eggs it slightly, but it's promising. Ruan ain't the most effusive at the best of times, mind.

back on topic: best team available. Hoping for a big game from Allen, Stevenson, McComb and Diack. I'm really enamoured with our fringe players this season. Fantastic endeavour and spirit, and have played a huge part in our success so far.

[red_stag]

Is he allowed?

[Don Alfonso]

Dunno. He's not over 30 - wasn't that the rule?

[Standulstermen]

I think Pienaar is 28/29. If a contract is agreed now why not. I also think the IRFU realised what he has done for ulster and they will give humph a bit of leeway here.

That being said I think nacewa was only given a 1 year extension. It might be all Ruan is after though

[red_stag]

I thought that you could sign a foreign player but his contact couldnt be extended.

The idea being that you use the time to develop more players.

Pienaars influence on Irish Rugby has been a positive but utlimately I dont want to see a situation in another 2-3 years where he is still starting for Ulster ahead of Heaney and Marshall.

[clivemcl]

I thought that you could sign a foreign player but his contact couldnt be extended.

The idea being that you use the time to develop more players.

Pienaars influence on Irish Rugby has been a positive but utlimately I dont want to see a situation in another 2-3 years where he is still starting for Ulster ahead of Heaney and Marshall.

I do.

Look heres the deal, you are welcome to Bowe Trimble Gilroy (Payne in a year or two) Cave, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson.

But can some of the other provinces look after scrum-half. (its not like you's don't have enough of them!)

[BelfastDickVet]

I know this is slightly off topic but the IRFU would be mad not too allow him to stay, he is moulding one of Ireland's future 10's just as Dr Phill did with sexton. They would seriously be shooting themselves in the foot.

I like the look of this team, the second row is made up of possibly the two most underrated in our squad, what Leinster would do to to have a player like big Lewis right now. Also I think it was right to keep Diack as his line out call skills will be crucial, and he has been pretty good in defence often making last gasp and crucial tackles in the line, he also is quite effective at slowing down opposition ball, granted he does get penalised when caught. Also Allen is a fantastic player and I feel any opportunity he gets to show his quality is beneficial to us as a club as it increases our strength and depth further.

[red_stag]

Clive,

Ultimately what will happen is what happened at tight head prop.

If we bring in a marquee foreign player it should be to give an immediate boost to our first team and spend a few years passing stuff onto younger guys.

But this business of foreign players staying for 5, 6, 7 years is too much IMO.

I think he has been moulding players fine but no point moulding anyone if we're just going to keep him in Ireland.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Clive,

Ultimately what will happen is what happened at tight head prop.

If we bring in a marquee foreign player it should be to give an immediate boost to our first team and spend a few years passing stuff onto younger guys.

But this business of foreign players staying for 5, 6, 7 years is too much IMO.

I think he has been moulding players fine but no point moulding anyone if we're just going to keep him in Ireland.

Interesting. If I was Irish and supported a franchise system I would hold that exact same view.

But the difference is that I believe that the nation is the pinnacle of all rugby ambition and therefore everything possible should be targeted especially in a top-down nation like Ireland or New Zealand to the 'greater good'.

Curiously my understanding of Staggy is that he prioritises the Provincial ambition in Europe over the national cause.

[neilthom7]

Stag isn't there something to be said though that Paddy Jackson is now 21 if Pienaar were to stay for say 2 more years following the end of the season Jackson would be 23 when he left and be a much better player for having pienaar there during his development and lets face it while Paul Marshall is decent player Jackson has a lot more potential for Ireland in the long run.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Stag has a point to be honest.

There is no point trying to put our own spin on it - the only real reason we want Pienaar to stay is due to the integral part he has played in our success. Which could possibly sacrifice potential options at 9 for Ireland.

[Standulstermen]

Pienaar will (at the very least) be offered one year extension(s) like nacewa and it is down to the good doctor to persuade him to sign

[neilthom7]

Well it could Rory but the rest of backline including Payne in a year or 2 is Irish the other 3 provinces all have Irish scrumhalves and aren't likely to be signing any NIQ scrumhalves meanwhile Pienaar while being integral to Ulster squad is helping develop something which we do not have at Ulster a World class flyhalf who has more potential for Ireland than either of our scrumhalf options. I don't deny Pienaar will help Ulster but that is not the only reason I would like him to stay. I am fine with it either way tbh and am sure we will make good either way also if Jackson is the finished article by the time Pienaar leaves next season then I would have a different view and would be fine with him going.

[red_stag]

Neilthom,

Leinster have got their first and second choice scrumhalves turning 33 this year. Apart from Conor Murray the scrumhalf cupboard is not that plentiful at Munster.

As Rory is saying below me; Pienaar is like a Yachvilli or Parra style scrumhalf who controls the game. There will come a point soon when Jackson can be considered a fairly experienced provincial player and ready to stop learning.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Another thing to note, could Pienaar potentialy rather stifle Jackson's development rather than improve it? The likes of Sexton and Madigan are given the reigns to control a game themselves, and generally that is what the Irish 10s do well. One of the most impressive things so far about Hanrahan is his ability to control a game, despite his young age. I feel he will always be given that responsibility when he reaches higher levels.

If Pienaar is our go to man, and he is the real decision maker and pivot, will that not leave Jackson behind other options for the future?

[MrsP]

It's probably impossible to say whether having someone like Pienaar stay will continue to help Jackson and when the tipping point comes but I'd say young Paddy is well able for the game controlling aspects of the position and would be more than capable of taking those on as time passes.

He can already do it he just needs time to acheive the level of Pienaar. He's a bright lad and who better to learn from?

[Standulstermen]

From my perspective I have a deeper affinity to ulster than Ireland so I don't care. Sign him up!

[red_stag]

MrsP he has been learning from him for three years. I wouldnt mind as much but his contact isn't up for another year.

By then Reddan and Boss will be 34 years of age, Stringer will be gone and it will be time to introduce another foreign scrumhalf.

Pienaar will have already had one contract extension at that stage.

No way should he be given a second contract extension when Marshall and Heaney are waiting in the wings.

Its an absolute no brainer.

[Kingshu]

Marimon at Connacht is a great young prospect, I suspect Leinster will snap him up in a year or two and annoy Connacht again.

The thing about only having one NIQ in each position, and not extending contacts comes in next season, so Ulster should look to do this before it comes in, with IRFU's blessing of course, as after it comes in it will be harder to get the IRFU to agree.

Marshall is decent but he's a good back up to have at 27 he's been about a while, and wasn't able to displace Boss before Pienaar, TBH he isn't international class.

You could make an argument that any NIQ player will stiffle the growth of an IQ player, but not everyone is going to have an Elsom effect, sometimes there are weaknesses in a team that they need a NIQ player to plug, and sometimes the players coming up in that position are never going to be internationals, no matter the gametime or how much they learn from the NIQ player, ok it may be better to give them gametime in case Ireland need to call on them, but would it not be better to extend the NIQ contract untill the next ones are coming in?

Also the not extending NIQ contracts thing may not come in, remember the Provinces were set against this part, as they would end up getting players coming in for a few years play and leave, not buying into the team which is so important to the Provinces, Howlett, Nacewa, pienaar, Muller, have really invested themselves in the teams, thier pride in the jersey shows.

If a player is coming for 3 years, and knows there is no chance of staying longer, would they invest themselves as heavily into the team? They would turn up and play, but them wouldn't be to intrested in building relationships with fans, the community etc etc, as the above mentioned have.

[MrsP]

Stag,

Should you not be half way to Exeter by now?

[red_stag]

Nah I'm flying out on match day.

Kingshu, I think that I'd rather have that and ease off our dependence on foreign players.

We are hopelessly reliant on foreigers in Ireland.

[neilthom7]

Well in Kingshu's point I would say there would then be no point in signing any foreigners for the simple reason that if the come in o a 3 year big money deal and they know they will not be retained after 3 years, they wont settle in the area they wont care about developing players, they wont care about the team and they wont have any reason to even bother playing well so all you are going to have is journeymen so there is no point in even signing them.

[MrsP]

But when does that tipping point occur?

I don't think you'll find anyone who'll say that Pienaar has done anything other than improve Marshall and Heaney so far, would you?

Who's to say that will change in 1 year, 2 years or whatever? Don't forget that Ireland will benefit from their improvement as well as Ulster. If those 2 plus Jackson and in turn McIlroy are still improving under his tutelage then it's better for Ireland that he stays. Marshall is still getting game time. Certainly more than Keatley is getting behind ROG. Maybe the IRFU should have rules about aged Irish Icons keeping younger players off the pitch too!

[neilthom7]

Paul Marshall has played in 15 games this year and started at least 9 of those I doubt you can really say he is not getting gametime as MrsP says it's all about that tipping point if at the end of next season Marshall is not learning from Pienaar and Jackson is close to complete then get rid of him. There is also the point that there are old Irish players holding back our development as well. I presume if Pienaar goes then Nacewa will be gone too, I would imagine Muller and Howlett will retire soon.

[red_stag]

Neil - regarding other foreign players yes. I think Mafi at Munster was a prime example. We had Downey playing great stuff over in England while we had Mafi for half a dozen years in Munster. Why didnt we just sign Downey in 2010 when he was in his prime.

I understand what you're saying about the worst case scenario where we have journey man mercenaries but there are other worst case scenarios with foreign players too.

You had BJ Botha at Ulster, then you signed John Afoa. Would it bother you if you replaced him with Adam Jones and then Dan Cole? What if after Pienaar leaves Ulster scratch head and say "We have no good scrumhalf" lets buy one and he stays another half dozen years.

[Kingshu]

It one the Provinces don't want, they want to be able to award the players that buy into the province, with an extension, say you get a journeyman for 3 years, first to years what really motivates him to play, we've seen these players cruise through games, not putting in thier best, doing just ok, then in 3rd year when they want to catch the eye of another team to move to (as they know they aren't going to get an extension) they really put the effort in again.

Team morale can suffer as well, as these players don't buy into the Munster/leinster/Ulster shirt, its just another team to them, for the provinces Pride in your province is a big thing, it brings the teams together, someone who doesn't buy into it will upet the atmostsphere.

I think the Provinces will be allowed leeway to be allowed to offer extensions, to players that really invest themselves into the team, the ones that stay behind to help with the acamady, go out to meet the fans, attend the functions of the clubs in the provinces etc.

[MrsP]

Anyway, can anyone give me any idea about the side that Castres have named?

Apart from Pedrie and "Maxwell" Evans about all I can say is that it seems to have a lot of changes compared to the team they sent to Ravenhill.

Stronger, weaker? Is this their "home" team? Are they going for it?

[BelfastDickVet]

You had BJ Botha at Ulster, then you signed John Afoa. Would it bother you if you replaced him with Adam Jones and then Dan Cole?.[/quote]

Yeah it would bother me as they aren't half the player big John is! It would be a step down in quality. Lol
I understand where you are coming from but I don't agree with it. I feel we need these experienced NIQ's to gently guide our developing playes into a position where they are able to preform at high levels. An example where this strategy should have been implemented and wasn't is with Nial O'Connor he was dumped into the deep end, still very young and naive. He couldn't handle the pressure at that stage of his development I I truly believe it is that pressure at sucha crucial time in his development that stifled him, if he had a tutor such as Pienaar to guide him through the rough patches and gently giving him the reigns over a prolonged period of time and built up his confidence he could well be a totally different player. Although this is just speculation on my part.

[BelfastDickVet]

I wonder why big Pedrie hasn't been getting the game time for castres. He is pure quality!

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