Tigers vs Toulouse

by nathan Wed 16 Jan 2013, 3:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

So, who's going to win?

Winner takes all game, should be a great game. My only worry is that we're due a fair amount of snow Friday/Saturday and as you may of noticed, it's a bit nippy outside. Hopefully the game won't be called off.

On a side note, does anyone know if 2nd place in this group are likely to get through as one of the best runners up?

EDIT: How rude of me, i forgot to add my own prediction! I'm going for the Tigers by 7.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 20 Jan 2013, 7:22 pm

Also beyond a load of fatties throwing themselves head first in to every ruck and Youngs box kick what do the Tigers actually bring?

Worryingly little. Not really the conditions for running rugby but Tigers did open up the Tolouse defence inside five minutes and had Morris not knocked on then they'd have been more points for Tigers on the board then minutes on the clock. As the pitch cut up and Tigers concentrated on field position they weren't looking for the big backs moves. Losing Manu on the morning of the game didn't help.

by ME-109 Sun 20 Jan 2013, 7:30 pm

Having watched Racing against Saracens last week and Toulouse against Leicester the coaches must be shooting thmeselves. Toulouse were what 0-7 if you include the drop goal attempts.

I guess they dont deserve to go through against a plucky if limited leicester side.

by maverickmak Sun 20 Jan 2013, 8:22 pm

Conditions were terrible, making attacking play very difficult, but Tigers do need to sort their backline play out or they will get nowt this season. Pack is a match for anyone though.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 20 Jan 2013, 8:27 pm

maverickmak wrote:Conditions were terrible, making attacking play very difficult, but Tigers do need to sort their backline play out or they will get nowt this season. Pack is a match for anyone though.

First match I have been to for quite some time, for reasons documented elsewhere. To blame the backs is actually to miss the root cause. Far too often the forwards drive the ball into contact in straight line rugby and then get either pinged for holding on, or take forever to secure the ball - this means the backs have really, really slow ball to work with. We never seem to look to change the point of contact.

Of course you have to look at the passing and running lines of the backs when you butcher a 5 on 2 overlap as we did in the second half by passing behind the (dummy?) runner but in front of the others.

I would like to say that this was the noisiest WR has been for a couple of years - especially at the 3 late Toulouse lineouts where the volume seemed to get to Toulouse.

by Manu's Boxing Coach Sun 20 Jan 2013, 8:43 pm

First 5 mins the Tigers backs looked decent and showed some promise especially in the atrocious conditions. This isnt the game really to judge the backline but granted we have been sub par this season. However it shouldnt be forgotten that last season we were a huge threat attacking wise and I do expect that to return to our game as conditions improve.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 20 Jan 2013, 8:54 pm

I think we lost an edge when Mafi went off injured. That left our backrow minus a lot of speed. Crane is ever willing but no where close to Mafi in terms of speed where as Waldrom just doesn't want to cover the ground or use his speed other than in attack. I felt that hurt us at the breakdown. Thankfully Croft is on the mend.

Tight five were awesome today, Ben Youngs was brilliant but the rest has various amounts of room for improvement.

by maverickmak Sun 20 Jan 2013, 9:24 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
maverickmak wrote:Conditions were terrible, making attacking play very difficult, but Tigers do need to sort their backline play out or they will get nowt this season. Pack is a match for anyone though.

First match I have been to for quite some time, for reasons documented elsewhere. To blame the backs is actually to miss the root cause. Far too often the forwards drive the ball into contact in straight line rugby and then get either pinged for holding on, or take forever to secure the ball - this means the backs have really, really slow ball to work with. We never seem to look to change the point of contact.

Of course you have to look at the passing and running lines of the backs when you butcher a 5 on 2 overlap as we did in the second half by passing behind the (dummy?) runner but in front of the others.

I would like to say that this was the noisiest WR has been for a couple of years - especially at the 3 late Toulouse lineouts where the volume seemed to get to Toulouse.

You may well have a point, but the backs have been largely impotent this season. Too often the passing is sloppy and little pace is being brought into the line, but they can look and have looked deadly sharp at times. The talent is definitely there. Firmer grounds will show the truth.

Agree about the crowd. Noisiest I have heard since the South Africa game.

by beshocked Mon 21 Jan 2013, 9:29 am

Well done Tigers clap

3 English sides in the quarter finals.

by yappysnap Mon 21 Jan 2013, 10:19 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think we lost an edge when Mafi went off injured. That left our backrow minus a lot of speed. Crane is ever willing but no where close to Mafi in terms of speed where as Waldrom just doesn't want to cover the ground or use his speed other than in attack. I felt that hurt us at the breakdown. Thankfully Croft is on the mend.

Tight five were awesome today, Ben Youngs was brilliant but the rest has various amounts of room for improvement.

Congrats Tigers, booting Toulouse out of the Cup is pretty impressive no matter how it happens.

Tight five pretty much did what was needed to win the game for you guys but lacked any kind of dynamism in the loose. I thought your backrow was pretty annonymous, which is odd as it was the perfect game for Salvi.

Youngs kicked well but in the second half started runnign sideways too often and his passing put Flood under a lot of pressure. The backs looked lost for most of the game, Morris looked the most threatening but is still probably an average prem wing at best. What has happened to the killer clinical Tigers backline of last season?

by Jimpy Mon 21 Jan 2013, 10:25 am

Well, well. Tigers win again despite not playing particularly well. Just think what would happen if they start playing decent rugby for 80 minutes.

Personally, I bet there a re a lot of teams out there playing to their full potential that would give a lot to be where Tigers are now.

I don't think Tigers have the game to go all the way this year, but who knows, if they can keep digging out the results..

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 21 Jan 2013, 10:58 am

To be fair on Tigers no-one could play decent rugby in those conditions.
Theyve done very well to qualify from this tough group, and perhaps owe Ospreys a round of drinks for turning over Toulose.

They needed this, so many near misses in the last few years and its been too long for a club with Tigers standing and ambition to not make the last 8. They probably wont get any further after pulling the French Debt Crisis but getting out of the group is a victory in itself, even if they havent really convinced in many games.

by beshocked Mon 21 Jan 2013, 11:11 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:To be fair on Tigers no-one could play decent rugby in those conditions.
Theyve done very well to qualify from this tough group, and perhaps owe Ospreys a round of drinks for turning over Toulose.

They needed this, so many near misses in the last few years and its been too long for a club with Tigers standing and ambition to not make the last 8. They probably wont get any further after pulling the French Debt Crisis but getting out of the group is a victory in itself, even if they havent really convinced in many games.

You have to be in it to win it.

Leicester so far have done all they can. Only 3 points off top in the AP and a HC quarter final is very good going.

Plus it helps your ERC ranking for next season too.

by yappysnap Mon 21 Jan 2013, 12:11 pm

Cockers is probably breathing a sigh of relief too.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 21 Jan 2013, 12:16 pm

beshocked wrote:

Plus it helps your ERC ranking for next season too.

Unless we beat ~~Dad's Army~~ Toulon probably not. the losing final in 2009 drops off our ranking so we are likely to be in the 3rd pool next year, if we qualify of course.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 21 Jan 2013, 12:53 pm

Which sums up how poor they have been in Europe since Meyer went. Long term though this will help us get back into Pool 2, we were always going to drop down for next year unless they do something ridiculous like beat Toulon away

by yappysnap Mon 21 Jan 2013, 12:59 pm

Toulon do have bad games, and Wilko has been as shocking as he has been great. Just duff up Armitage and half the job's done.

by whocares Mon 21 Jan 2013, 1:03 pm

agree - Toulon recent form has been average. April is a long way though and they should get players like Botha back...

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 21 Jan 2013, 1:18 pm

If they are playing averagely to get 4 points clear of Clermont and stroll a HC group then I fear for Tigers if they turn up!
Theyve obviously had a few games where theyve switched off but their ability to punish teams when they get on top is frightening. i cant remember the last game where Tigers didnt give the opposition a spell of dominance, I cant imagine that Toulon will fail to capitalise on that in the Osrpeys, Toulouse, Worcester, Gloucester etc failed to.
Id expect the conditions in spring to suit the French at home more as well, although Tigers have adapted well to turning on the attacking flair late in the season over the last couple of years.

by whocares Mon 21 Jan 2013, 1:36 pm

Like you said PSW, Toulon is great at punishing teams when they make mistakes but when they have to play a team who is "up for it" as opposed to a team who is just looking for damage limitation, it's another story.
Basically they are the HC bullies Smile

by formerly known as Sam Mon 21 Jan 2013, 2:00 pm

Montpellier demolished Toulon this weekend. Tigers must be watching that tape. Defend hard, disrupt the set piece ball and Toulon look average. Giteau is loving on reputation and both Wilko and Michelak showing a certain French mecurial style to their play. Match Toulon up front and I reckon we can do it.

With the game being in April we should benefit, we have some explosive players in Croft, Manu, Murphy and Goneva to return from injury all of whom will enjoy a harder pitch in the French sunshine.

Mission accomplished we're out of the group. So far so good.

Which sums up how poor they have been in Europe since Meyer went.

Meyer was in charge for less than 6 months. It would be more accurate to say since Mauger left. It was Aaron and Geordie that coached the backline that year. Time MOC went.

by funnyExiledScot Mon 21 Jan 2013, 2:10 pm

Anything is possible in the knockout phases, as Edinburgh showed last year beating Toulouse (had to find a way of shoe-horning that in somewhere).

I've yet to be convinced by Toulon. Clearly a collection of talented players, but Leicester have a fair few game breakers as well.

Nothing to fear here from Leicester. Front up, put these guys under pressure and make life unpleasant and Toulon are there for the taking.

by beshocked Mon 21 Jan 2013, 2:13 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Anything is possible in the knockout phases, as Edinburgh showed last year beating Toulouse (had to find a way of shoe-horning that in somewhere).

I've yet to be convinced by Toulon. Clearly a collection of talented players, but Leicester have a fair few game breakers as well.

Nothing to fear here from Leicester. Front up, put these guys under pressure and make life unpleasant and Toulon are there for the taking.

Sorry FES but I do think Toulon away is a tougher match than Toulouse at home.

The French seem to be much more comfortable in their backyard. Especially Toulon.

It's going to be tough. The most important thing Leicester need to do is shut the French crowd down - basically they need to start strongly.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 21 Jan 2013, 4:00 pm

I guess I have been selective in which games I watch Toulon play - but over the last few years they have not impressed me - hence I guess why I fail to understand the calls for Wilko to be a Lion or Steffon to play for England.

They are flat track bullies who if allowed to build a head of steam and steamroll opponents unable to match their physicality (kind of like a more star lade version of Tigers I guess). They should have far too much for what is a disappointing tigers team this season - yet they are not invincible.

by Jimpy Mon 21 Jan 2013, 4:18 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I guess I have been selective in which games I watch Toulon play - but over the last few years they have not impressed me - hence I guess why I fail to understand the calls for Wilko to be a Lion or Steffon to play for England.

They are flat track bullies who if allowed to build a head of steam and steamroll opponents unable to match their physicality (kind of like a more star lade version of Tigers I guess). They should have far too much for what is a disappointing tigers team this season - yet they are not invincible.

I know Toulon are having a good season, but every time i've watched them from the Stade Felix, thye've looked vulnerable for periods of the match. Clermont are infinately stronger at home. But i suppose you can't argue with results, Youlon top the French league.

I don't like Steffon Armitage, but there isn't a better English 7 at the moment (name a better one?). If he played in England, Lancaster would have to select him.

by yappysnap Mon 21 Jan 2013, 4:29 pm

They're def not invincible LT, but they are tough to beat. Actually very similar to Tigers like you say. If they're pack gets the upper hand then they have the talent to wup teams, but if the pack struggles it seems to impact Wilkinson and the tactics massively and they suffer.

Can Tigers get the mental side right to challenge them though? Montpellier seemed to be out of their minds for most of the game and were massively aggressive, i'm not sure if any English team currently can get to that level of aggression/passion/manic-lunacy.

by Big Mon 21 Jan 2013, 4:37 pm

Jimpy wrote:
I know Toulon are having a good season, but every time i've watched them from the Stade Felix, thye've looked vulnerable for periods of the match. Clermont are infinately stronger at home. But i suppose you can't argue with results, Youlon top the French league.

I don't like Steffon Armitage, but there isn't a better English 7 at the moment (name a better one?). If he played in England, Lancaster would have to select him.

I haven't seen too much of Toulon this year, but I did watch them in the TOP 14 final last year against Toulouse. I thought that they lost the plot a bit when they were put under pressure, and that gives me a bit of hope ahead of the quarters. Whatever other failings the team has, if there's one thing Tigers can do reliably it's pressurise the opposition. That combined with the Toulon fans expecting a home win might work in Tigers favour. Plus we should be into our end of season boost in form by the time the quarters are played.

I certainly don't think Tigers are favourites, but equally I don't think Toulon are as good as through to the semis. Will review nearer the time depending on form, but for now I certainly think it's a match that Tigers have a decent shot at.

by Jimpy Tue 22 Jan 2013, 8:42 am

So we can all agree, French teams are more comfortable in their own back yard, but not especially Toulon, who can actually be quite flakey...

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 22 Jan 2013, 8:53 am

How many home games have they lost this year?

by beshocked Tue 22 Jan 2013, 8:57 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:How many home games have they lost this year?

Pretty sure the first time they lost was to Racing Metro two and a half weeks ago.

Toulon are top of the Top 14. Seems like some of you are underestimating them.

Yappysnap pretty much every side struggles if their pack is not on top.

As I said before it's key that Leicester start strongly.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 22 Jan 2013, 9:12 am

Yeah so not that flakey then .tigers best hope is to turn up in racing shirts and panic them

by Jimpy Tue 22 Jan 2013, 9:53 am

Is somebody going to name a better out and out English no7 than Steffon Armitage then?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 22 Jan 2013, 10:01 am

Jimpy wrote:Is somebody going to name a better out and out English no7 than Steffon Armitage then?

I do not know how you define an out and out 7.

Personally I think Robshaw and Haskell are better international 7s that Armitage and that Kvesic is unproven but has more potential. Of course these guys are also good enough to play other positions, but still for me better than Armitage in his only position.

Steffon for me will always be defined as what he is not - he is not a great tackler, his breakdown work is patchy (usually due to fitness), his speed is good at club level but not great shakes at international level, he is a decent ball carrier but again fitness issues are such that after a carry he goes missing. Sure he did not get a huge opportunity under Johnson - but when he played for England he looked well short of the needed class. His form the dipped significantly for LI - and now absence makes the heart grow fonder.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 22 Jan 2013, 10:06 am

beshocked wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:How many home games have they lost this year?

Pretty sure the first time they lost was to Racing Metro two and a half weeks ago.

Toulon are top of the Top 14. Seems like some of you are underestimating them.

Yappysnap pretty much every side struggles if their pack is not on top.

As I said before it's key that Leicester start strongly.

Not sure anyone is underestimating them - especially at home. Just saying they are not the world beaters everyone was making out. They should be clear favourites to beat us (I would only make Clermont bigger favourites to secure their semi place) but they are aging flat track bullies who struggle should anyone manage to stand up to them. Personally I am not sure we have what it takes - but Sarries or Ulster should be licking their lips at the prospect of hosting Toulon in the semi.

by Jimpy Tue 22 Jan 2013, 10:20 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Jimpy wrote:Is somebody going to name a better out and out English no7 than Steffon Armitage then?

I do not know how you define an out and out 7.

Personally I think Robshaw and Haskell are better international 7s that Armitage and that Kvesic is unproven but has more potential. Of course these guys are also good enough to play other positions, but still for me better than Armitage in his only position.

Steffon for me will always be defined as what he is not - he is not a great tackler, his breakdown work is patchy (usually due to fitness), his speed is good at club level but not great shakes at international level, he is a decent ball carrier but again fitness issues are such that after a carry he goes missing. Sure he did not get a huge opportunity under Johnson - but when he played for England he looked well short of the needed class. His form the dipped significantly for LI - and now absence makes the heart grow fonder.

French players' player of the year.... clearly cannot be as bad as all that.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 22 Jan 2013, 10:27 am

We picked Wilko when he won his sainthood in France, and he was bobbins.

by beshocked Tue 22 Jan 2013, 10:28 am

The best two proper 7s currently playing in England are Ksevic and Fraser.

S.Armitage has of course proven himself to be a very good player at club level in France but I agree with you LondonTiger.

S.Armitage is unproven at international level. He will not get the opportunity unless he moves to an English club. I think Tigers or Saints should get him personally.

True LondonTiger - especially away from home they are beatable but at home they are formidable.

I think Tigers have the tenacity to do it but you'll need to start strongly. Shut them down, put them under pressure and they could struggle.

by Jimpy Tue 22 Jan 2013, 10:44 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:We picked Wilko when he won his sainthood in France, and he was bobbins.

removed - such a inappropriate and meaningless comment. biltong.

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