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Welsh Regions

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ScarletSpiderman
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bedfordwelsh
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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 6:16

Welsh rugby does not have the money that French and English rugby has so it needs to be very careful with what it has and not waste a penny. Welsh rugby is spending many pounds on foreign players' salaries and the Welsh people are complaining that Welsh qualified players are leaving Wales, for money reasons. Given that a large amount of the Welsh rugby budget is generated by the Welsh national rugby team, it seems foolish to re-invest this money in Argentinian, Tongan, South African, Samoan, Fijian rugby players whilst watching our own rugby players leave.



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Post by HammerofThunor Sun 20 Jan - 6:37

Foreign players are probably cheaper than Welsh players of the same standard. Cost wise the cheapest are generally unproven players. Then journeymen, then great players. There are a hell of a lot more journeymen players from other countries combined than there are Welsh ones.

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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 6:47

HammerofThunor wrote:Foreign players are probably cheaper than Welsh players of the same standard. Cost wise the cheapest are generally unproven players. Then journeymen, then great players. There are a hell of a lot more journeymen players from other countries combined than there are Welsh ones.

But even if foreign players are cheaper, how are we helping our national team by investing our scarce resources in them? We were beaten by Samoa and Argentina last autumn, and we're investing our resources in players who were on the field for those teams. Even if Welsh players are more expensive, we can afford to keep them if we save money in other places.

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 20 Jan - 6:51

Hammer

I wouldn't bother mate!

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Jan - 6:55

That's the great club v country conundrum. No team can compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Clubs need to bolster with specialists from around the world. If they don't they do badly in Europe, fans don't want to watch and the regions have little sponsorship or revenue to spend on wages. A vicious circle. But you're right, it's difficult to develop for team Wales if foreign players are present. Although, I don't think the foreign player thing is that bad here in Wales. I mean, give me an example of foreign players clogging up the welsh system? Kahn Fo'uitaili? OK, but there are welsh scrum halves in reserve and in pole position at the other 3 regions. I'm a Dragons fan and I know that most weeks we put out a pretty much all Welsh team. Tuilagi at centre and sometimes Chavanga on the wing. But 2 out of 15 is in no way a problem. The Ospreys? Kahn and who are regular first team foreigners? I can't think of any.

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Post by thebluesmancometh Sun 20 Jan - 6:58

Griff

See Toulon for a great team France ambassader!

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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 7:11

Griff wrote:That's the great club v country conundrum. No team can compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Clubs need to bolster with specialists from around the world. If they don't they do badly in Europe, fans don't want to watch and the regions have little sponsorship or revenue to spend on wages. A vicious circle. But you're right, it's difficult to develop for team Wales if foreign players are present. Although, I don't think the foreign player thing is that bad here in Wales. I mean, give me an example of foreign players clogging up the welsh system? Kahn Fo'uitaili? OK, but there are welsh scrum halves in reserve and in pole position at the other 3 regions. I'm a Dragons fan and I know that most weeks we put out a pretty much all Welsh team. Tuilagi at centre and sometimes Chavanga on the wing. But 2 out of 15 is in no way a problem. The Ospreys? Kahn and who are regular first team foreigners? I can't think of any.

I see no reason why teams can't compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Look at the Ospreys starting 15 team that beat Leinster at the RDS last season:
Richard Fussell; Hanno Dirksen, Andrew Bishop, Ashley Beck, Shane Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Paul James, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Justin Tipuric, Joe Bearman.
I think there is enough clogging up of the system happening. We cannot afford to keep top Welsh players in Wales because we're spending our money on NWQ players, then the WRU try to interfere with the myth that central contracts will solve everything. I think it's a dangerous thing to have 1 foreign player at any of our regions. We are humbled financially to other nations, and we really have to face the severity of the situation. Once we start saving, we'll accept our financial reality and then we can make sane decisions, but until we do that we won't be able to see the picture clearly and that's a dangerous thing.

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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 7:14

thebluesmancometh wrote:Griff

See Toulon for a great team France ambassader!

Toulon are doing well with a lot of foreign players, but I don't think the French national team are helped by this.

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Post by Morgannwg Sun 20 Jan - 7:19

Somebody ban this buffoons several accounts.
Doh
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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 8:39

It's important that the flow of WQ players from clubs to regions is as fluid and as free as possible, when a WQ player leaves Wales, we should look to the Welsh leagues for a suitable replacement, not go overseas and spend our money there.

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Jan - 8:42

international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:That's the great club v country conundrum. No team can compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Clubs need to bolster with specialists from around the world. If they don't they do badly in Europe, fans don't want to watch and the regions have little sponsorship or revenue to spend on wages. A vicious circle. But you're right, it's difficult to develop for team Wales if foreign players are present. Although, I don't think the foreign player thing is that bad here in Wales. I mean, give me an example of foreign players clogging up the welsh system? Kahn Fo'uitaili? OK, but there are welsh scrum halves in reserve and in pole position at the other 3 regions. I'm a Dragons fan and I know that most weeks we put out a pretty much all Welsh team. Tuilagi at centre and sometimes Chavanga on the wing. But 2 out of 15 is in no way a problem. The Ospreys? Kahn and who are regular first team foreigners? I can't think of any.

I see no reason why teams can't compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Look at the Ospreys starting 15 team that beat Leinster at the RDS last season:
Richard Fussell; Hanno Dirksen, Andrew Bishop, Ashley Beck, Shane Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Paul James, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Justin Tipuric, Joe Bearman.
I think there is enough clogging up of the system happening. We cannot afford to keep top Welsh players in Wales because we're spending our money on NWQ players, then the WRU try to interfere with the myth that central contracts will solve everything. I think it's a dangerous thing to have 1 foreign player at any of our regions. We are humbled financially to other nations, and we really have to face the severity of the situation. Once we start saving, we'll accept our financial reality and then we can make sane decisions, but until we do that we won't be able to see the picture clearly and that's a dangerous thing.

I think you'll find that in most cases (at least in the case of star players) foreigners are bought because the welsh players have left, not that welsh players are leaving because of foreigners. Kahn was bought because Phillips left, Chavanga because Brew left, Timani because Lou Reed left, the Argie because Dom Day left, the French lad at the Blues because Gethin left, the Georgian prop at the Blues because Yapp left, Nimmo at the Dragons because Charteris left, Copeland because Andy Powell left (could be wrong on that one). I'm sure there's more. However, the good thing is that a lot of these are not now first choice. Kahn is, and rightly so. He's world class. But the others are regularly kept out of the team by welsh players, so for me there's not too much of a problem with these overseas players if they're mainly to bolster the squad. We simply cannot produce the required 120 or so elite level players needed for 4 top level european teams in our small nation. At club level overseas signings are a necessary evil IMO.

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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 8:53

Griff wrote:
international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:That's the great club v country conundrum. No team can compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Clubs need to bolster with specialists from around the world. If they don't they do badly in Europe, fans don't want to watch and the regions have little sponsorship or revenue to spend on wages. A vicious circle. But you're right, it's difficult to develop for team Wales if foreign players are present. Although, I don't think the foreign player thing is that bad here in Wales. I mean, give me an example of foreign players clogging up the welsh system? Kahn Fo'uitaili? OK, but there are welsh scrum halves in reserve and in pole position at the other 3 regions. I'm a Dragons fan and I know that most weeks we put out a pretty much all Welsh team. Tuilagi at centre and sometimes Chavanga on the wing. But 2 out of 15 is in no way a problem. The Ospreys? Kahn and who are regular first team foreigners? I can't think of any.

I see no reason why teams can't compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Look at the Ospreys starting 15 team that beat Leinster at the RDS last season:
Richard Fussell; Hanno Dirksen, Andrew Bishop, Ashley Beck, Shane Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Paul James, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Justin Tipuric, Joe Bearman.
I think there is enough clogging up of the system happening. We cannot afford to keep top Welsh players in Wales because we're spending our money on NWQ players, then the WRU try to interfere with the myth that central contracts will solve everything. I think it's a dangerous thing to have 1 foreign player at any of our regions. We are humbled financially to other nations, and we really have to face the severity of the situation. Once we start saving, we'll accept our financial reality and then we can make sane decisions, but until we do that we won't be able to see the picture clearly and that's a dangerous thing.

I think you'll find that in most cases (at least in the case of star players) foreigners are bought because the welsh players have left, not that welsh players are leaving because of foreigners. Kahn was bought because Phillips left, Chavanga because Brew left, Timani because Lou Reed left, the Argie because Dom Day left, the French lad at the Blues because Gethin left, the Georgian prop at the Blues because Yapp left, Nimmo at the Dragons because Charteris left, Copeland because Andy Powell left (could be wrong on that one). I'm sure there's more. However, the good thing is that a lot of these are not now first choice. Kahn is, and rightly so. He's world class. But the others are regularly kept out of the team by welsh players, so for me there's not too much of a problem with these overseas players if they're mainly to bolster the squad. We simply cannot produce the required 120 or so elite level players needed for 4 top level european teams in our small nation. At club level overseas signings are a necessary evil IMO.

I'm sure there's enough talent in Wales for four regions, players will step up to the level they're exposed to, however much Kahn costs Welsh rugby, I'm sure the money would be better used to develop a Welsh scrum-half, or in the case of Chavanga, a Welsh winger.

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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 8:58

international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:
international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:That's the great club v country conundrum. No team can compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Clubs need to bolster with specialists from around the world. If they don't they do badly in Europe, fans don't want to watch and the regions have little sponsorship or revenue to spend on wages. A vicious circle. But you're right, it's difficult to develop for team Wales if foreign players are present. Although, I don't think the foreign player thing is that bad here in Wales. I mean, give me an example of foreign players clogging up the welsh system? Kahn Fo'uitaili? OK, but there are welsh scrum halves in reserve and in pole position at the other 3 regions. I'm a Dragons fan and I know that most weeks we put out a pretty much all Welsh team. Tuilagi at centre and sometimes Chavanga on the wing. But 2 out of 15 is in no way a problem. The Ospreys? Kahn and who are regular first team foreigners? I can't think of any.

I see no reason why teams can't compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Look at the Ospreys starting 15 team that beat Leinster at the RDS last season:
Richard Fussell; Hanno Dirksen, Andrew Bishop, Ashley Beck, Shane Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Paul James, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Justin Tipuric, Joe Bearman.
I think there is enough clogging up of the system happening. We cannot afford to keep top Welsh players in Wales because we're spending our money on NWQ players, then the WRU try to interfere with the myth that central contracts will solve everything. I think it's a dangerous thing to have 1 foreign player at any of our regions. We are humbled financially to other nations, and we really have to face the severity of the situation. Once we start saving, we'll accept our financial reality and then we can make sane decisions, but until we do that we won't be able to see the picture clearly and that's a dangerous thing.

I think you'll find that in most cases (at least in the case of star players) foreigners are bought because the welsh players have left, not that welsh players are leaving because of foreigners. Kahn was bought because Phillips left, Chavanga because Brew left, Timani because Lou Reed left, the Argie because Dom Day left, the French lad at the Blues because Gethin left, the Georgian prop at the Blues because Yapp left, Nimmo at the Dragons because Charteris left, Copeland because Andy Powell left (could be wrong on that one). I'm sure there's more. However, the good thing is that a lot of these are not now first choice. Kahn is, and rightly so. He's world class. But the others are regularly kept out of the team by welsh players, so for me there's not too much of a problem with these overseas players if they're mainly to bolster the squad. We simply cannot produce the required 120 or so elite level players needed for 4 top level european teams in our small nation. At club level overseas signings are a necessary evil IMO.

I'm sure there's enough talent in Wales for four regions, players will step up to the level they're exposed to, however much Kahn costs Welsh rugby, I'm sure the money would be better used to develop a Welsh scrum-half, or in the case of Chavanga, a Welsh winger.

I'm sure there were foreign players at the regions when Phillips, Brew, Reed, Day, Gethin, Yapp left.

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Jan - 9:05

No, players will not always step up to the level they're exposed to. That's the point. If that was the case then Toulon would just chuck in 22 local kids and they'd win the HC as they'd be 'exposed'.

There's always a balance required and that's why we have an overseas player quota, which if memory serves was/is 6 overseas players in the starting 22 to be reduced to 4 by the next renewal of the participation agreement.

And I have to disagree that there is enough 'talent' for 4 regions. Enough players, yes. I could play if needed, for example. But talent to compete in Europe? 35 Welsh players, and only Welsh players, at each region? No. There is no country in the world that only has home qualified players playing pro rugby for them. And there's a good reason for that. Why should Wales fly in the face of that and be the pioneers of 100% home representation only? Where is the evidence that this approach works?

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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 9:10

Griff wrote:No, players will not always step up to the level they're exposed to. That's the point. If that was the case then Toulon would just chuck in 22 local kids and they'd win the HC as they'd be 'exposed'.

There's always a balance required and that's why we have an overseas player quota, which if memory serves was/is 6 overseas players in the starting 22 to be reduced to 4 by the next renewal of the participation agreement.

And I have to disagree that there is enough 'talent' for 4 regions. Enough players, yes. I could play if needed, for example. But talent to compete in Europe? 35 Welsh players, and only Welsh players, at each region? No. There is no country in the world that only has home qualified players playing pro rugby for them. And there's a good reason for that. Why should Wales fly in the face of that and be the pioneers of 100% home representation only? Where is the evidence that this approach works?

The New Zealand Super 15 teams, they're largely 97.5% New Zealanders

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Jan - 9:12

international197 wrote:
international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:
international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:That's the great club v country conundrum. No team can compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Clubs need to bolster with specialists from around the world. If they don't they do badly in Europe, fans don't want to watch and the regions have little sponsorship or revenue to spend on wages. A vicious circle. But you're right, it's difficult to develop for team Wales if foreign players are present. Although, I don't think the foreign player thing is that bad here in Wales. I mean, give me an example of foreign players clogging up the welsh system? Kahn Fo'uitaili? OK, but there are welsh scrum halves in reserve and in pole position at the other 3 regions. I'm a Dragons fan and I know that most weeks we put out a pretty much all Welsh team. Tuilagi at centre and sometimes Chavanga on the wing. But 2 out of 15 is in no way a problem. The Ospreys? Kahn and who are regular first team foreigners? I can't think of any.

I see no reason why teams can't compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Look at the Ospreys starting 15 team that beat Leinster at the RDS last season:
Richard Fussell; Hanno Dirksen, Andrew Bishop, Ashley Beck, Shane Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Paul James, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Justin Tipuric, Joe Bearman.
I think there is enough clogging up of the system happening. We cannot afford to keep top Welsh players in Wales because we're spending our money on NWQ players, then the WRU try to interfere with the myth that central contracts will solve everything. I think it's a dangerous thing to have 1 foreign player at any of our regions. We are humbled financially to other nations, and we really have to face the severity of the situation. Once we start saving, we'll accept our financial reality and then we can make sane decisions, but until we do that we won't be able to see the picture clearly and that's a dangerous thing.

I think you'll find that in most cases (at least in the case of star players) foreigners are bought because the welsh players have left, not that welsh players are leaving because of foreigners. Kahn was bought because Phillips left, Chavanga because Brew left, Timani because Lou Reed left, the Argie because Dom Day left, the French lad at the Blues because Gethin left, the Georgian prop at the Blues because Yapp left, Nimmo at the Dragons because Charteris left, Copeland because Andy Powell left (could be wrong on that one). I'm sure there's more. However, the good thing is that a lot of these are not now first choice. Kahn is, and rightly so. He's world class. But the others are regularly kept out of the team by welsh players, so for me there's not too much of a problem with these overseas players if they're mainly to bolster the squad. We simply cannot produce the required 120 or so elite level players needed for 4 top level european teams in our small nation. At club level overseas signings are a necessary evil IMO.

I'm sure there's enough talent in Wales for four regions, players will step up to the level they're exposed to, however much Kahn costs Welsh rugby, I'm sure the money would be better used to develop a Welsh scrum-half, or in the case of Chavanga, a Welsh winger.

I'm sure there were foreign players at the regions when Phillips, Brew, Reed, Day, Gethin, Yapp left.


But you're suggesting they were forced out. So tell me, which players in their positions were forcing them out? When Brew left, for example, there were no foreign wingers. Justin Marshall left over a season before Mike a Phillips left. Charteris only had Sidoli and Adam Jones as competition. Gethin was first choice, who was his foreign competition? Face it, these guys left for money and lifestyle and not because they were forced out by foreign players.

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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 9:16

Griff wrote:
international197 wrote:
international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:
international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:That's the great club v country conundrum. No team can compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Clubs need to bolster with specialists from around the world. If they don't they do badly in Europe, fans don't want to watch and the regions have little sponsorship or revenue to spend on wages. A vicious circle. But you're right, it's difficult to develop for team Wales if foreign players are present. Although, I don't think the foreign player thing is that bad here in Wales. I mean, give me an example of foreign players clogging up the welsh system? Kahn Fo'uitaili? OK, but there are welsh scrum halves in reserve and in pole position at the other 3 regions. I'm a Dragons fan and I know that most weeks we put out a pretty much all Welsh team. Tuilagi at centre and sometimes Chavanga on the wing. But 2 out of 15 is in no way a problem. The Ospreys? Kahn and who are regular first team foreigners? I can't think of any.

I see no reason why teams can't compete in Europe with just one gene pool. Look at the Ospreys starting 15 team that beat Leinster at the RDS last season:
Richard Fussell; Hanno Dirksen, Andrew Bishop, Ashley Beck, Shane Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Paul James, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, Justin Tipuric, Joe Bearman.
I think there is enough clogging up of the system happening. We cannot afford to keep top Welsh players in Wales because we're spending our money on NWQ players, then the WRU try to interfere with the myth that central contracts will solve everything. I think it's a dangerous thing to have 1 foreign player at any of our regions. We are humbled financially to other nations, and we really have to face the severity of the situation. Once we start saving, we'll accept our financial reality and then we can make sane decisions, but until we do that we won't be able to see the picture clearly and that's a dangerous thing.

I think you'll find that in most cases (at least in the case of star players) foreigners are bought because the welsh players have left, not that welsh players are leaving because of foreigners. Kahn was bought because Phillips left, Chavanga because Brew left, Timani because Lou Reed left, the Argie because Dom Day left, the French lad at the Blues because Gethin left, the Georgian prop at the Blues because Yapp left, Nimmo at the Dragons because Charteris left, Copeland because Andy Powell left (could be wrong on that one). I'm sure there's more. However, the good thing is that a lot of these are not now first choice. Kahn is, and rightly so. He's world class. But the others are regularly kept out of the team by welsh players, so for me there's not too much of a problem with these overseas players if they're mainly to bolster the squad. We simply cannot produce the required 120 or so elite level players needed for 4 top level european teams in our small nation. At club level overseas signings are a necessary evil IMO.

I'm sure there's enough talent in Wales for four regions, players will step up to the level they're exposed to, however much Kahn costs Welsh rugby, I'm sure the money would be better used to develop a Welsh scrum-half, or in the case of Chavanga, a Welsh winger.

I'm sure there were foreign players at the regions when Phillips, Brew, Reed, Day, Gethin, Yapp left.


But you're suggesting they were forced out. So tell me, which players in their positions were forcing them out? When Brew left, for example, there were no foreign wingers. Justin Marshall left over a season before Mike a Phillips left. Charteris only had Sidoli and Adam Jones as competition. Gethin was first choice, who was his foreign competition? Face it, these guys left for money and lifestyle and not because they were forced out by foreign players.

I'm not saying they were forced out, but I don't think it helps when you have someone like Jerry Collins in your book taking up a large chunk of your budget. I reckon players have a right to leave if they want to but we should make the best of our limited budget to keep them in Wales.

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Jan - 9:19

international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:No, players will not always step up to the level they're exposed to. That's the point. If that was the case then Toulon would just chuck in 22 local kids and they'd win the HC as they'd be 'exposed'.

There's always a balance required and that's why we have an overseas player quota, which if memory serves was/is 6 overseas players in the starting 22 to be reduced to 4 by the next renewal of the participation agreement.

And I have to disagree that there is enough 'talent' for 4 regions. Enough players, yes. I could play if needed, for example. But talent to compete in Europe? 35 Welsh players, and only Welsh players, at each region? No. There is no country in the world that only has home qualified players playing pro rugby for them. And there's a good reason for that. Why should Wales fly in the face of that and be the pioneers of 100% home representation only? Where is the evidence that this approach works?

The New Zealand Super 15 teams, they're largely 97.5% New Zealanders


Each of them has 2, 3, maybe 4 foreign players. And a lot more that have NZ as their nationality but decide to play for Samoa, Tonga or Fiji (through family links). Look at the Dragons; just 5 'overseas' players in the entire squad, and 2 of them could be considered time serving as they've never represented their countries (Dan Way and Nimmo).

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Jan - 9:23

You're going back a bit now talking about Collins! At that time the Ospreys went down the 'buy it and the cups will come' route, which was semi successful. However, I'd argue that the legacy of having those sort of players there, I.e. decent overseas signings, is that the youngsters learn from them and have developed nicely. I don't think it's any coincidence the Ospreys have brought in probably the best overseas players, have been the most successful region, have supplied the most to the national team and probably have some of the best youngsters coming through.

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Post by Morgannwg Sun 20 Jan - 9:30

This is beyond dumb.
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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 9:32

Griff wrote:You're going back a bit now talking about Collins! At that time the Ospreys went down the 'buy it and the cups will come' route, which was semi successful. However, I'd argue that the legacy of having those sort of players there, I.e. decent overseas signings, is that the youngsters learn from them and have developed nicely. I don't think it's any coincidence the Ospreys have brought in probably the best overseas players, have been the most successful region, have supplied the most to the national team and probably have some of the best youngsters coming through.

I reckon the Ospreys are doing well and developing youngsters because they've refrained from buying overseas players more in recent years than in the years before and focused their energies on developing young welsh players, but I think youngsters learn from older welsh qualified players, therefore no need for overseas signings.

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Jan - 9:39

Fair enough. It's all opinion. Mine is that for competition at the elite level in Europe we cannot be a closed shop. For the Wales national team we can be a closed shop. And there lies the dilemma, this Club vs Country stand off. Until the WRU assume ownership of all regions they cannot really have a say in overseas signings (apart from quotas laid out in participation agreements) as they will be limiting the prospects of those regions (again, just my opinion).

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Jan - 9:40

international197 wrote:
Griff wrote:You're going back a bit now talking about Collins! At that time the Ospreys went down the 'buy it and the cups will come' route, which was semi successful. However, I'd argue that the legacy of having those sort of players there, I.e. decent overseas signings, is that the youngsters learn from them and have developed nicely. I don't think it's any coincidence the Ospreys have brought in probably the best overseas players, have been the most successful region, have supplied the most to the national team and probably have some of the best youngsters coming through.

I reckon the Ospreys are doing well and developing youngsters because they've refrained from buying overseas players more in recent years than in the years before and focused their energies on developing young welsh players, but I think youngsters learn from older welsh qualified players, therefore no need for overseas signings.


All regions have, now that times are tougher!

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Post by international197 Sun 20 Jan - 9:47

Griff wrote:Fair enough. It's all opinion. Mine is that for competition at the elite level in Europe we cannot be a closed shop. For the Wales national team we can be a closed shop. And there lies the dilemma, this Club vs Country stand off. Until the WRU assume ownership of all regions they cannot really have a say in overseas signings (apart from quotas laid out in participation agreements) as they will be limiting the prospects of those regions (again, just my opinion).

I don't think we'll really be a closed shop with just welsh players, as long as we keep playing against teams from other nations. We'd only really be a closed shop IMO if Welsh regions/clubs only played each other and didn't arrange games with clubs from other nations. But, I think the regions are feeling the squeeze and no financial signing with the budget they have can make a significant difference, I think it's all from the ground up from now on with feeder clubs, and I reckon that's enough to make us competitive.

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Post by Seagultaf Sun 20 Jan - 20:49

I suspect that the crop of pretty average overseas forwards currently at the Scarlets is largely due to the instruction from the WRU to recruit from the Ospreys as they were going to be wound up by the Inland Revenue.

This resulted in the Scarlets releasing decent players such as Reed and Day and then having to scramble to pick up replacement oversea's journeymen just as the season was starting.

If the following played in Wales, then how many foreigners would the regions need?

Lee Byrne
Lee Thomas
Steve Shingler
Shane Williams
Steve Jones
Nicky Robinson
Mike Phillips
Dwayne Peel
Paul James
Rhys Gill
John Yapp
Eifion Roberts
Huw Bennett
Rhys Thomas
Luke Charteris
Dom Day
Gareth Delve
Andy Powell

I am sure there are others!

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 22 Jan - 2:27

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21117021


Jonathan Humphreys:

"You can't come and win European competitions when you've got less money than everybody else in it," he said.
"But if people want to justifiably say to the Welsh regions, 'You're disappointing', well put us on a level playing field, and then say we're disappointing."


Stuart Gallacher:

[quote]"
I believe we need four [but] I'm not saying four equal. To have an area of Wales without a professional region is self defeating... but I think we can do it differently."
Gallacher would not be drawn on which of the regions should be scaled down.
"I couldn't make that comment, it would be remiss of me," he told BBC Radio Wales' Morning Call programme.
"That is a call for all four regions plus the Welsh Rugby Union. But it's no good ducking it, we can talk around it forever, but we have to make decisions."


The current set up is not viable if Welsh teams want to be able to compete. Dragons cant even mount a decent challenge in the Amlin.

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan - 2:37

[quote="Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21117021


Jonathan Humphreys:

"You can't come and win European competitions when you've got less money than everybody else in it," he said.
"But if people want to justifiably say to the Welsh regions, 'You're disappointing', well put us on a level playing field, and then say we're disappointing."


Stuart Gallacher:

"
I believe we need four [but] I'm not saying four equal. To have an area of Wales without a professional region is self defeating... but I think we can do it differently."
Gallacher would not be drawn on which of the regions should be scaled down.
"I couldn't make that comment, it would be remiss of me," he told BBC Radio Wales' Morning Call programme.
"That is a call for all four regions plus the Welsh Rugby Union. But it's no good ducking it, we can talk around it forever, but we have to make decisions."


The current set up is not viable if Welsh teams want to be able to compete. Dragons cant even mount a decent challenge in the Amlin.


But we could, IMO, if we attracted Welsh players playing out of the country and a handful of quality overseas signings. So, it's not necessarily to do with cutting down, it's to do with getting 4 to be really good!

Or, to put it another way: How will shutting the Dragons down make the other regions stronger? We don't have many decent players, apparently, so our squad being divided up will do no good to the others. A bit of extra money - will fund a few top players. But if we're trying to keep it 'all welsh' then they're here already. Giving the other regions out share of mone will only serve inflate the wages of welsh players as they'll demand more to stay here, or it will encourage overseas spending which we're told is counter productive!

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Post by Morgannwg Tue 22 Jan - 2:40

Dragons did compete in the Amlin though. You can blame the coaches baffling decisions for not turning over Waps/Bayonne home or away. PSWdivvy picard
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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan - 2:56

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The current set up is not viable if Welsh teams want to be able to compete. Dragons cant even mount a decent challenge in the Amlin.

That's extreme ignorance. Dragons should have beaten Wasps at home and Bayonne twice. Plus, had we not have rotated before our first game at Adams Park, then maybe it would have been better again. I wasn't happy with how we did, but to say we weren't competitive, is way over the top.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 22 Jan - 3:32

I guess this depends on your definition of competitive. Personally I would see a team that only managed wins against an Italian league team at the group stage prior to the best teams even being entered when others too were rotating squads is not mounting a decent challenge for the trophy.

The furious reactions from the usual trolls and attempt to turn what I said into some kind of England Wales slag fest is a diversion from the uncomfortable truth anyway and the point of the article quotes I had highlighted.

It's not me who is saying the Welsh cant be expected to compete for Euro trophies it's the coaches of those teams. It's not me who's saying that the current model isn't working its the games administrators. And their auditors.

Whether is deacons who get connachted or even reduced to the status of the northern region isn't the point either. It's that this is pretty much inevitable in some form, the current model isn't working for the teams players or moneymen. The wru were not entirely uncomfortable with the idea of letting the sprays fold if that would have got them off the hook of having to negate

Obviously because I'm English you'll just assume this is an attack on Welsh rugby, it wasn't intended that way. I like many others see that a viable and strong challenge from Wales in vlun and international rugby is good for the game as a whole. An hc and Hamlin that will be contested between 3 nations ( and there's only 3 non Franglish clubs in the remaining 16) is a bit limp.

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan - 3:48

I'm not trolling. You just chose your word poorly. They were competitive.

I stated that I wasn't happy they only beat the minnows, but I won't have people say (incorrectly) that they weren't competitive.

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Post by sirBiggles Tue 22 Jan - 3:54

I thought there was a ruling when the regions where set up stating the maximum number of non Welsh qualified players they coould have in their squad.

Is that ruling being ignored or has it been changed/scrapped.

Maybe, if we had central contracts, we could define the number of non Welsh qualified in each position, hence ensuring strength in depth.

I understand and appreciate that experience is a great thing when mentoring young talent, but I think it is being abused by the regions. They dont seem to be bringing in "foriegn" experience to mentor the youngsters, but as a quick way to try and strengthen a position, hence win trophies. Which in my opinon, is wrong and evidence shows it doesnt work.

Stop bringing in the foreigners who are here to build their pensions. Shane Williams could have stayed at the Ospreys doing this, but thought it better to make a first place slot available. I accept the argument is the reverse, that he takes a Japanese spot from a Japan qualified player, but I suspect they gain more from his presence.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 22 Jan - 3:57

Risca Rev wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The current set up is not viable if Welsh teams want to be able to compete. Dragons cant even mount a decent challenge in the Amlin.

That's extreme ignorance. Dragons should have beaten Wasps at home and Bayonne twice. Plus, had we not have rotated before our first game at Adams Park, then maybe it would have been better again. I wasn't happy with how we did, but to say we weren't competitive, is way over the top.
Risca thats a bit of a comtradiction on what you have been posting on the Zebra thread. I thought at the end of the day a loss is a loss?

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan - 4:16

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The current set up is not viable if Welsh teams want to be able to compete. Dragons cant even mount a decent challenge in the Amlin.

That's extreme ignorance. Dragons should have beaten Wasps at home and Bayonne twice. Plus, had we not have rotated before our first game at Adams Park, then maybe it would have been better again. I wasn't happy with how we did, but to say we weren't competitive, is way over the top.
Risca thats a bit of a comtradiction on what you have been posting on the Zebra thread. I thought at the end of the day a loss is a loss?

I'd avoid highlighting that thread again, or it'll just show your childish post from the other day again. I'm interested as to how I'm contradicting myself though.

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan - 4:25

sirBiggles wrote:I thought there was a ruling when the regions where set up stating the maximum number of non Welsh qualified players they coould have in their squad.

Is that ruling being ignored or has it been changed/scrapped.

Maybe, if we had central contracts, we could define the number of non Welsh qualified in each position, hence ensuring strength in depth.

I understand and appreciate that experience is a great thing when mentoring young talent, but I think it is being abused by the regions. They dont seem to be bringing in "foriegn" experience to mentor the youngsters, but as a quick way to try and strengthen a position, hence win trophies. Which in my opinon, is wrong and evidence shows it doesnt work.

Stop bringing in the foreigners who are here to build their pensions. Shane Williams could have stayed at the Ospreys doing this, but thought it better to make a first place slot available. I accept the argument is the reverse, that he takes a Japanese spot from a Japan qualified player, but I suspect they gain more from his presence.

Maximum number in the match day squad, yes. The most recent participation agreement stipulated a maximum of 6 in the squads, to be reduced to 4 by the end of the participation agreement (not sure when it ends). I can't think of many examples of first team, front line foreign players in the regions though. Can you name them? Kahn at the O's is probably the main one. Maybe Tuilagi at the Dragons. Any other foreign players in these teams are back up as far as I can see. The Scarlets - Timani. Is he first choice? The Argie 2nd row? The Blues have a few in fairness, but I wouldn't think they were breaking the 6 in a squad rule - Mainly front rowers and Copeland isn't it??? It's definitely improved over the lat few years. Maybe as we're moving towards the '4' rule.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 22 Jan - 4:35

Risca Rev wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The current set up is not viable if Welsh teams want to be able to compete. Dragons cant even mount a decent challenge in the Amlin.

That's extreme ignorance. Dragons should have beaten Wasps at home and Bayonne twice. Plus, had we not have rotated before our first game at Adams Park, then maybe it would have been better again. I wasn't happy with how we did, but to say we weren't competitive, is way over the top.
Risca thats a bit of a comtradiction on what you have been posting on the Zebra thread. I thought at the end of the day a loss is a loss?

I'd avoid highlighting that thread again, or it'll just show your childish post from the other day again. I'm interested as to how I'm contradicting myself though.
How was my post childish? Because I used sarcasm? If thats the case then most people on here are childish.

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Post by Morgannwg Tue 22 Jan - 8:41

Risca Rev wrote:I'm not trolling. You just chose your word poorly. They were competitive.

I stated that I wasn't happy they only beat the minnows, but I won't have people say (incorrectly) that they weren't competitive.

I know. personal attack removed
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 22 Jan - 19:27

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I guess this depends on your definition of competitive. Personally I would see a team that only managed wins against an Italian league team at the group stage prior to the best teams even being entered when others too were rotating squads is not mounting a decent challenge for the trophy.

So three of the four matches we lost were lost by a score or less, but you don't judge us to have been competetive? By those standards, no team that loses a match has been competetive in that match.


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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 22 Jan - 19:40

I do really wish Edwards would concentrate his efforts on this competition one year and give it a good crack.

His team selection for the first game away to Wasps put us on the back foot from the start.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 22 Jan - 19:46

In his defence (and I don't defend him often), his focus would have been on the league and trying to make us third-placed region or higher, and I can understand that; what I don't understand why it had to be a straight choice between the Pro 12 and the Amlin. In your first match in a cup competition, you should always go all out for the win, otherwise what's the point?

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 22 Jan - 20:42

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I guess this depends on your definition of competitive. Personally I would see a team that only managed wins against an Italian league team at the group stage prior to the best teams even being entered when others too were rotating squads is not mounting a decent challenge for the trophy.

So three of the four matches we lost were lost by a score or less, but you don't judge us to have been competetive? By those standards, no team that loses a match has been competetive in that match.


No , no team That loses all 4 of is games against fully pro teams in a group stage of a tournament that the strongest sides done even enter till the knockouts I don't consider as seriouslying competitive for the cup..individual matches do not equate to a vampaign umless your teying to pretend zebre are umlucky not to be in a rabo playoff spot. If you think that the dragons are well enoughffunded and able to retain a good enough playing squad to challenge for the Hamlin then that's your right to think so, I however question if that will happen any more in the future than it has in the past.you seem intent on turning this into a pointless childish bicker over what isn't the issue here anyway, and I apologise for getting dragged back into it. I tried to turn back to the real issues raised in my initial post but you and the ever rabid attack dog completely ignored that just for a good excuse to make more insulting and needlessly argumentative remarks.

All I did was quote the ever growing number of people within the game in Wales who have a more realistic view of ways happening to regional rugby than many of the internet fans. The fact the system is struggling to deliver revenues that enable teams to be competitive on a European stage and even with letting players go there is still a funding gap. The current model is going to be extremely hard to maintain, that doesn't mean dragons have to go but it does mean some harsh decisions will have to be made that upset some people.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 22 Jan - 20:44

I'm sorry if I've insulted you. Headscratch

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 22 Jan - 21:28

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:In his defence (and I don't defend him often), his focus would have been on the league and trying to make us third-placed region or higher, and I can understand that; what I don't understand why it had to be a straight choice between the Pro 12 and the Amlin. In your first match in a cup competition, you should always go all out for the win, otherwise what's the point?

LP,

I agree with both points but if Edwrads and us fans are totally honest whilst it would be great to be third placed Region, in terms of European competitions then the Amlin is more our level and one I feel we could really compete at if he wanted to give it a shot. You only have to look at Connacht for that example.
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Post by Glas a du Tue 22 Jan - 22:16

international197 wrote:Welsh rugby does not have the money that French and English rugby has so it needs to be very careful with what it has and not waste a penny. Welsh rugby is spending many pounds on foreign players' salaries and the Welsh people are complaining that Welsh qualified players are leaving Wales, for money reasons. Given that a large amount of the Welsh rugby budget is generated by the Welsh national rugby team, it seems foolish to re-invest this money in Argentinian, Tongan, South African, Samoan, Fijian rugby players whilst watching our own rugby players leave.



All fine and dandy, except that the Regions have to pay the players when they are away getting injured for Wales during time when they could be sorting themselves out for the HC.
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Post by ScarletSpiderman Tue 22 Jan - 23:33

Right first things first. NWQs are needed by the regions, to help bring outside influences and ideas to our younger players.

Back in 2010 i put together a quick NWQ XV it looked something like

Blair (NZ-Blu), Bowe (IRE-Osp), King (NZ-Sca), Lualala (NZ-Blu), Lamont (SCO-Sca), Parks (SCO-Blu), Nutbrown (NZ-Osp)
Rush (NZ-Blu), Hollah (NZ-Osp), Collins (NZ-Osp);, Molitika (FIJ-Blu), Paterson (NZ-Blu), Filisse (TON-Blu), Willis (NZ-Blu), Manu (FIJ-Sca)

Since then looking at the regions, we have produced (or atleast continued to improve) the following players to the point whether they have eitehr got caps or have been quoted as ones for the future-:

Fish/Czekaj (Blu), Walker (Osp), S Williams (Sca), Hewitt/O Williams (Blu), Li Williams (Sca), Patchell (Blu), Webb (Osp);
Petorious (Blu), Tipuric (Osp), King (Osp), B Davies (Blu), Paterson (Blu-ok cheating), Andrews (Blu), Burns (Dra - sadly retired), Rh Jones (Sca)

I would say that shows that there really is a gain to having NWQ players, it is just about making sure that there are also young welsh players in the same position to learn from them.
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Post by Guest Wed 23 Jan - 2:41

If you were to make a NWQ 15 now it would look a lot weaker. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing! Good, because it means that our own players are perhaps the starter, and the better of the two. We're not relying on parachuting in stars. But bad because it means that we're buying some overseas players who are not very good. At least in the past the NWQs were quality. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Wed 23 Jan - 2:43

NWQ (now)

1) Campese Ma'Afu, 2) Andy Kyriacou, 3) Jacobia Adriaanse
4) George Earle, 5) Johan Snyman
6) Robin Copeland, 8) George Stowers, 7) Tomas Vallejos
9) Joe Bedford, 10) Kahn Fotuali'i
11) Hanno Dirksen, 12) Andy Tuilagi, 13) ???, 14) Tonderai Chavanga
15) Jamie Smith

https://www.606v2.com/t36783-niq-v-nwq (it was made a while back, but is near enough right, a few changes needed)

Yeah it definately seems weaker, but that is because the majority of NWQs seem to be in the front five at the moment, which is generally a problem area for wales.


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Post by Guest Wed 23 Jan - 4:24

Bedford has gone now. Playing for Doncaster (I think).

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Post by Kingshu Wed 23 Jan - 4:59

I remember doing that NWQ V NIQ, and did one a few years earlier. few years ago the NWQ team was a match for the NIQ team, But now the NIQ team would destroy the NWQ team. I think that you want a few good quality NWQ, but its also good that they are only squad players, both have merits, but I'd prefer a starter that can help coach say lineouts in a different way.

However the main bit was when doing the NWQ team of today, it was very difficult to make up the backs, even now the centers aren't filled, Scarlets for example have no NWQ backs. Its in the forwards the regions seam to require the NWQ players, with means the acamamies are producing a lot of good young backs,

IMO backs develop younger than forwards, and would be on the scene at a younger age, so when the acadamies started turning out quality players (north, cuthbert etc) a few years ago, the forwards would take longer to appear, we should start seeing these players now coming on the scene.

Anyway IMO I would like to see the regions get 5/6 high quality NWQ players in each team but no more than that. Take Jamie Smith for example, does he really justify a NWQ spot for Dragons (much as I like him being an Ulster fan).

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Post by Guest Wed 23 Jan - 5:11

Whilst he is still there, Jamie Smith must be as good as released by now too. It's not his fault he picked up bad injuries, but we've had nothing out of him.

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