should lee byrne start for wales?

I have heard a couple of pundits claim that he is the form full back in europe and should be the #1 contender for the lions 15 shirt, if this is the case then he should surely be starting against ireland as we all know when hes on top of his game hes arguably the best full-back in the world, the problem would then be does halfpenny play on the wing or do we stick with north and cuthbert? Personally id go with north, HP and byrne but then again cuthbert seems to be our most deadly try-scorer, who does everyone else want to see start for wales in the back 3?

I haven't seen Byrne play for Clermont. If he's playing as well as people claim, then he should start at full back and Halfpenny should fight it out for a wing spot (he's a natural winger and I've never been convinced with him at full back). Halfpenny's goalkicking is an asset but with Dan Biggar at ten, we should be okay.

But as I say, I haven't seen him play for Clermont.

Pot,

I think he should but I don't think he will.

I would go with

North
Byrne
Halfpenny

But think we will see

North
Halfpenny
Cuthbert

His inclusion over Cuthbert would fundamentally change the balance of Wales' back 3. Instead of two battering rams youll have two players with strong fullback skills (more like how England line up).
Its not just down to one players form but also how Wales plan to attack with the ball in hand and deal with the kicking game. if they want to stick with the same plan that won them the last Grandslam then he'd have to replace Halfpenny...that means losing his goalkicking which from memory was excellent last year.
There is the side issue of politics and preference for home based players to consider as well.
But a vintage lee Byrne is hard to ignore.

There's no way we don't include Halfpenny; our best player of the Autumn series, and even if Biggar does the majority of the place-kicking you'd want 1/2p for the long ones.

Byrne at FB. Cuthbert and halfpenny and the wings. North on the bench cos he's simply off form.

1:2p is a far better and cleaner player than Byrne, who shouldn't get a look in.

Breadvan wrote:Byrne at FB. Cuthbert and halfpenny and the wings. North on the bench cos he's simply off form.

I'd be happy enough with that.

Tough call between Byrne Halfpenny and Liam Wiiliams. Halfpenny's goal kicking is superb and gives us an extra point scoring player.

From a neutral perspective I've never been convinced of halfpenny at 15. He has all the talent yes but he's lacks it in the physical aspect of the game. He's no coward mind.

He is vital to Wales game though so I would keep him on the wing. He has bags of pace and a reliable boot. But I also think his running game could be utilised better on the wing.

Byrne is a big old lump and tackles well above his weight. Apparently he's playing well so why not play him.

Cuthbert is the easiest to drop... can't defend, can't kick. Decent runner but doesn't have a rugby brain, just a big lad with pace (like Banahan).... recall the last match when he got a break in his 22.... had white line fever and rather than try and mix it up he just ran straight into the fullback and the move was neutralised...

Compare that to Ashton's try of the year in 2010 and its quite apparent who is the smarter rugby player... Ashton knew he would be tackled on the outside so he drastically cut inside and wrong footed the defence for a score. Its not pace, its being smart. Cuthbert has a long way to go.

How about Wales go radical and swing with

9.Williams
10.Tovey
11.Cuthbert
12.Davies
13.North
14.Halfpennt
15.Byrne

North would get torn apart at 13. Its a very difficult position to defend... the most important in the backline. On paper fine but on the pitch it wouldn't work.

But surely in the lead up to 2015 they could look at North , his hands are much better than Roberts and Davies is Wales best player for most people.

or could go even more radical, and play Byrne at 15, keep north and Cuthbert on the wings, and try Halfpenny at 10?

fa0019 wrote:From a neutral perspective I've never been convinced of halfpenny at 15. He has all the talent yes but he's lacks it in the physical aspect of the game. He's no coward mind.

Halfpenny is small but pretty strong and a decent tackler. Do you really need to be really physical to be a fullback. I wouldnt say he is much less physical than Beale or Dagg, neither of whom are really physical.

fa0019 wrote:
He is vital to Wales game though so I would keep him on the wing. He has bags of pace and a reliable boot. But I also think his running game could be utilised better on the wing.

He will be included somewhere because of his goalkicking.

fa0019 wrote:
Byrne is a big old lump and tackles well above his weight. Apparently he's playing well so why not play him.

i wouldnt pick him because I feel Halfpenny offers more. Byrne would be a good bench option.

fa0019 wrote:
Cuthbert is the easiest to drop... can't defend, can't kick. Decent runner but doesn't have a rugby brain, just a big lad with pace (like Banahan).... recall the last match when he got a break in his 22.... had white line fever and rather than try and mix it up he just ran straight into the fullback and the move was neutralised...

Banahan is absolutly useless. Not fair at all to compare one of the standout players of the last 6N to Banahan. Its was Shane Williams that Banahan ran into and not the 15 which made it all the more embarassing.

fa0019 wrote:
Compare that to Ashton's try of the year in 2010 and its quite apparent who is the smarter rugby player... Ashton knew he would be tackled on the outside so he drastically cut inside and wrong footed the defence for a score. Its not pace, its being smart. Cuthbert has a long way to go.

Look at Cuthberts try v France in the last 6N. If you are looking for a winger who has blown a lot of chances then Ashton is your man. I certainly wouldnt describe him as having a massive rugby brain. He is very fast though.

GunsGerms

Is halfpenny a better player then Bryne... yes.

But a North, Bryne & Halfpenny trio for me is better than a North, Halfpenny & Cuthbert. It is stronger in defence and offers more in attack.

One of Wales biggest problems is that they have become predictable & one dimensional. You can't have too many hog carriers in your backline... at the moment Wales have them at 9,11,12 & 14. It limits your play.

In terms of Ashton... he's an opportunist and not just a finsher. He gives his teams tries which others would not score because they wouldn't be in that position in the first place. His record is pretty decent... esp. for one which has been over a period of difficulty for ENG.

I would say that Ashton's career will last a lot longer than most wingers (once the pace has gone it you find out the skills of the man). Sure he's no Robinson or Williams but he's no hog carrier either. Once North, Cuthbert, Bowe etc pace goes they will end up like guys like Rokocoko, Cohen etc.... little threat.

How has Cuthbert been getting on this year? The hype seems to have shifted to guys like Williams and walker, he's barely been mentioned on here or in the press. Is he still a real threat or just the poor man's north?

fa0019 wrote:GunsGerms

Is halfpenny a better player then Bryne... yes.

But a North, Bryne & Halfpenny trio for me is better than a North, Halfpenny & Cuthbert. It is stronger in defence and offers more in attack.

One of Wales biggest problems is that they have become predictable & one dimensional. You can't have too many hog carriers in your backline... at the moment Wales have them at 9,11,12 & 14. It limits your play.

In terms of Ashton... he's an opportunist and not just a finsher. He gives his teams tries which others would not score because they wouldn't be in that position in the first place. His record is pretty decent... esp. for one which has been over a period of difficulty for ENG.

I would say that Ashton's career will last a lot longer than most wingers (once the pace has gone it you find out the skills of the man). Sure he's no Robinson or Williams but he's no hog carrier either. Once North, Cuthbert, Bowe etc pace goes they will end up like guys like Rokocoko, Cohen etc.... little threat.

but Tommy Bowe has never been fast at all really compared to practically every other winger. His strength has always been in his technique and awareness.

Chris Ashton is a very good player but the majority of his tries have come where all the hard work has already been done for him and he just had to turn the after burners on in space. He has a very good try scoring record but its too early to tell just how good he is. For every thing he does well I could point out something he could afford to work on.

I think if you have nailed your starting place at Clermont of all teams, then you probably are good enough to start for Wales, Halfpenny should move to the wing.

Nice to have such strong options.

Why bring Byrne in to the Welsh team if you are not going to play him?

Is Halpenny fully fit? Should Byrne start at 15, and Halfpenny on the bench?

There is talk of Halfpenny going to the wing, could he be played there with out the balance of the back line being affected? Who would they drop to play him on the wing North, or Cuthbert?

majesticimperialman wrote:Why bring Byrne in to the Welsh team if you are not going to play him?

Is Halpenny fully fit? Should Byrne start at 15, and Halfpenny on the bench?

There is talk of Halfpenny going to the wing, could he be played there with out the balance of the back line being affected? Who would they drop to play him on the wing North, or Cuthbert?

All the answers to your questions are written above. Read the posts

Halfpenny has been the one Welsh player to emerge with any credit in the last 9 months.

Should he really be shunted around?

majesticimperialman wrote:Why bring Byrne in to the Welsh team if you are not going to play him?

Is Halpenny fully fit? Should Byrne start at 15, and Halfpenny on the bench?

There is talk of Halfpenny going to the wing, could he be played there with out the balance of the back line being affected? Who would they drop to play him on the wing North, or Cuthbert?

1. Squad, not team Madge.

2. Why wouldn't Halfpenny be fully fit by the time the Ireland game comes round? I don't think Halfpenny will go to the bench to be honest though

3. Probably Cuthbert if anyone. North is pretty key to the way Howley likes to attack (ie he will be used on a crash ball). Cuthbert doesn't really, so Halfpenny could easily swap for him. I'd wager Halfpenny will be fullback though.

Hate to say your wrong Cyril but I can name at least 6 more welsh players getting the plaudits over the last 9 months...

Gareth Delve - Rebels captain and fan favourite.

Rhys Gill - Sarries rock!

Aled Brew - Fan fav at Biaritz

Adam Jones - Done nothing wrong and when played applauded

Stephen Jones - setting AP alight

Tipuric - Widely regarded as the best NH 7!!

It's not any of their fault that the welsh selection policy is a joke!

bluesman, I meant playing for Wales, and you knew it!

Halfpenny is a brilliant defensive player, a better last line defence than Byrne

On the other hand, Byrne is taller - valuable under the high ball - and his field kicking is superb at the moment.

Byrne deserves a shot (perhaps not against Ireland), but Halfpenny is far too good not to start. Depending on the opposition, North, Halfpenny, Byrne could work quite well if Roberts is back on form in midfield.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Hate to say your wrong Cyril but I can name at least 6 more welsh players getting the plaudits over the last 9 months...

Gareth Delve - Rebels captain and fan favourite.

Rhys Gill - Sarries rock!

Aled Brew - Fan fav at Biaritz

Adam Jones - Done nothing wrong and when played applauded

Stephen Jones - setting AP alight

Tipuric - Widely regarded as the best NH 7!!

It's not any of their fault that the welsh selection policy is a joke!

Delve and Brew have never shown anything in a Welsh shirt and are both too old to get involved now, equally, SJ will not be available at the next WC and would be a step backwards.

Adam Jones will start

Tipuric should start

Not selecting Rhys Gill was a huge mistake, Gethin Jenkins is badly off form - although Bevington deserves his spot and Gethin is getting his purely on his experience.

Wales

Your happy to write off a 26 yr old wing??? I have never understood why so many people are so quick to writee off Brew, he is an excellent elusive runner, his hands are much improved from his younger days and his defence (which he was slated for for years despite being a kid) is now very strong! He was never given a fair shot with Wales, capped as a teenager then written off!!

Delve is another who should have 40 caps, a young Falatau and Jones wouldve benefitted from a big strong experienced 8 to take pressure off them, and he's 30 and has been at the Rebels for a few seasons in his prime!!

We keep losing these players and there is no need for it!!

Cyril

If you mean players in the welsh squad you have to say so, saying welsh players isn't the same. And I find it interesting that you select 9 months as a timeframe, the same players who won the grand slam suddenly became poor players? Or more realistically we had a huge injury list and a lot of players were rushed into the int fold for the Autumns/summer.

Selection policy has been something of a mystery. Byrne had a dip in form following injury and was cast aside quicker than a turd sandwich.

However, Priestland, for example, was given a dozen starts to try and play himself back into form after his game fell apart. Only injury saved the boy, and everyone watching, from further punishment. We all hope he makes a full return to form for the Scarlets, of course.

Byrne is the best fullback, by some considerable margin, and should play there. But these things don't seem to matter in the current set up.

Halfpenny's place is on the wing. He falls over less when he plays there. Cuthbert on the bench - he's big and fast but has as much rugby in him as Nigel Walker did.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cyril

If you mean players in the welsh squad you have to say so, saying welsh players isn't the same. And I find it interesting that you select 9 months as a timeframe, the same players who won the grand slam suddenly became poor players? Or more realistically we had a huge injury list and a lot of players were rushed into the int fold for the Autumns/summer.

The thread is about Byrne potentially taking the Welsh full-back slot. I was saying that Halfpenny was the player who had performed well in that position. I'd like to think it was obvious I was talking about Wales. Maybe not

I didn't say they had become poor players in 9 months, but they've certainly performed poorly both, individually and as a team, within that period. Of course injuries, selection etc play a part but my point was that Halfpenny (pretty much alone among the Welsh team) did not seem to have suffered this downturn in form. To me, therefore, it seems a bit odd to think about bringing in Byrne, who hasn't played for Wales in ages, regardless of his good form in France.

Cas

1/2p slipping is a result of 2 things...

1/ Todays trends of training in flat footwear, either indoor or on the new 3G / 4G pitches. Ive seen so many pro players running so many footwork drills in daps, it's one of my biggest annoyances.

2/ 1/2p in the years he played on the wing developed a lazy style to his play (as most wingers do) he forgot how to use both feet effectively, and only has a step on one side. At FB he tries to utilise both sides of the field and at the kind of pace he moves at (which he trains in line way too much IMHO) his body can't compensate for a change in direction.

I could fix 1/2p in 12 weeks!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cas

1/2p slipping is a result of 2 things...

1/ Todays trends of training in flat footwear, either indoor or on the new 3G / 4G pitches. Ive seen so many pro players running so many footwork drills in daps, it's one of my biggest annoyances.

2/ 1/2p in the years he played on the wing developed a lazy style to his play (as most wingers do) he forgot how to use both feet effectively, and only has a step on one side. At FB he tries to utilise both sides of the field and at the kind of pace he moves at (which he trains in line way too much IMHO) his body can't compensate for a change in direction.

I could fix 1/2p in 12 weeks!!

Or just put him back on the wing?

Good observation though - I wondered why he falls over more at 15.

Also, playing at the Millennium doesn't help - where everyone slides around at the best of times. Halfpenny in home internationals is like Baby Bambi on Ice.

Cyril

Or you could claim that 1/2p was one of a few who hadn't been injured, as Roberts, Warburton, Jones, Hibbard, AWJ, Davies all had.

The problems Wales had in the AI's were purely down to selection, the likes of Jenkins, AWJ, Davies, Roberts etc hadn't played in months properly for club or country, how were they expected to face a fully fit and raring Argy team???

You were talking about Wales, and I was talking about Welsh players, you never mentioned the squad, you mentioned Welsh players. Maybe if you were a more rational poster who didn't WUM as much I would be able to read what you meant

Cas

It isn't funnyt though, at that level he gives away penalties, and posession regularly, it drives me nuts.
Other players don't slip as much but then the only player near his straight line speed is Cuthbert, Stoddart was extremely quick too. They don't slip like him because they develop a reaction to slow before a change of direction, 1/2p hasn't done so, and when he does he treat the ground like he does when he's training.

More players should train in specific sand based facilities, developing power but more importantly excagoration of foot placement and step direction!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Maybe if you were a more rational poster who didn't WUM as much I would be able to read what you meant

There's no need for that. I thought we were actually having a discussion

Yes, I agree that there are injury and selection issues but for me, it's case of don't change something that is working. Work on the stuff that isn't. 1/2 was/is in fine form and an excellent full-back. He doesn't need shifting.

One could argue though that with 1/2p at FB teams tend to bomb the ball far more, Argentina saw it as a good percentage gamble to gain feild position.

1/2p is decent under a high ball but far from dominant, teams do like to exploit his lack of height.

Although I agree with you about his form, he doesn't deseve to be dropped, and can't be for his goal kicking, I have said in the last few seasons that Byrne is being needlessly overlooked!!!

What we don't want though is a situation where we are giving him gametime at FB, then wing, then cover at 10, it does nothing for the player, see Hooks career!!

Has Halfpenny publicly expressed a preference re wing/FB?

Hook always said he saw himself as a 10, and other players (Foden, Pienaar?) have taken positional preferences (ahem) into account when moving clubs.

Should a player have the ultimate say? (Obviously they should when Sean Holley is coach, but I mean, generally, when professional coaches are involved etc.)

Halfpenny wants to be a Fullback.

Thanks for clearing that up.

if I was a Welsh supporter, I'd probably be calling for Byrnes return then the rearrangement of the backline so Byrne and Halfpenny were in there because:

1) Nothing like an old face revived to get the players going, give them a bit of a morale boost perhaps?
2) He's been playing well for Clermont a team who are second only to Tolouse, to be consistently picked for them is no mean feat
3) By the looks of things you're missing a bit of the spice that Byrne gave when he was on form. He's also an excellent defensive fullback.

Even though I'm not a Wales supporter I'd love to see Byrne playing again, I always found him quite an exciting player to watch and I hope Howley comes to his senses and picks him out.

NeilyBroon wrote:if I was a Welsh supporter, I'd probably be calling for Byrnes return then the rearrangement of the backline so Byrne and Halfpenny were in there because:

1) Nothing like an old face revived to get the players going, give them a bit of a morale boost perhaps?
2) He's been playing well for Clermont a team who are second only to Tolouse, to be consistently picked for them is no mean feat
3) By the looks of things you're missing a bit of the spice that Byrne gave when he was on form. He's also an excellent defensive fullback.

Even though I'm not a Wales supporter I'd love to see Byrne playing again, I always found him quite an exciting player to watch and I hope Howley comes to his senses and picks him out.

All good points,

The negative is that he is not going to play at the next rugby World Cup and we could be further blooding one of two very good fullbacks Liam Williams or Leigh Halfpenny.

Considering the injuries and the timing in relation to four year cycles I'm not sure brining in older players is really wise.

That said Byrne is in great form.

We aren't a strong enough team to have the luxury of 'blooding' youngsters ahead of better players. (Or attempting to get players to play their way out of a slump - Priestland).

We should play the best possible XV every time we take the pitch, regardless of age, when the next RWC is or whether players are based in Wales, England or France.

You cant' just cast aside playere who might or might not be around for the 2015 WC.

Casartelli wrote:We aren't a strong enough team to have the luxury of 'blooding' youngsters ahead of better players. (Or attempting to get players to play their way out of a slump - Priestland).

We should play the best possible XV every time we take the pitch, regardless of age, when the next RWC is or whether players are based in Wales, England or France.

If you were in front of me, I would embrace you.
Looking down the barrel of our 8th straight defeat is not the time to be worrying. About a World Cup the best part of 3 years away. Best players, on the field NOW!!

Byrne
Halfpenny
Cuthbert

North isn't in form, Cuthbert scores tries, it's that simple at this stage.
In the modern game, there are probably 30 test matches before the World Cup if people are worried about blooding players.

In the spirit of best players available, that also goes for Tipuric and King. With Eli Walker on the bench.

Due to injuries it looks like we will have to blood a few youngsters which in the long term will be good like I said lets not bin players we don't have to because they might not be about in 2015.

As much as I think he will be and he wants to be but Adam Jones will be wrong side of 30 by 2015 so should be drop him?????

Higher_Ground wrote:Byrne
Halfpenny
Cuthbert

North isn't in form, Cuthbert scores tries, it's that simple at this stage.

It really is that simple; but I'm not convinced that's the back three we'll see.

LP,

I agree, well I would be happy with North or Cuthbert with the other two but I think we will all be surprised if we don't see North Halfpenny Cuthbert

Byrne, North/Cuthbert (you can make a case for either), Davies, Roberts, Halfpenny, Hook, Phillips still looks as good as anything in world rugby.

When you start diluting the mix with (albeit fine regional) players like Liam Williams, Biggar, Walker, Scott Williams, Priestland, Knoyle(!) etc then it very quickly loses its potency.

(Scott Williams may be prove to be the exception).

Agree all bar Hook sorry but has never convinced me in a Welsh shirt, if he really was as good as others think then he would have nailed down the No10 shirt