Life without the Kiltschkos.

First topic message reminder :

Just a hypothetical here, and entirely a pointless one at that. Say the Klitschkos were to disappear overnight and everyone is willing to fight everyone else (I know, crazy, right?). All the belts are now vacant. Who do we feel would emerge as the top dog after the dust settles? Or, if you fancy sitting on the fence, which four fighters would you have holding a belt each? Would Fury beat Haye? Would Price beat Tyson. Seth Mitchell clean up? Or Pulev? Wilder? Would Povetkin finally step up or would he get beaten to the punch by some of the up-and-comers who’ve emerged whilst he’s been biding his time?

Essentially, this is a ‘out of the current second tier (the first tier being the Ks) crop, who, if thrust into the fray, is best?’ best’ kind of question. Would be interested to see what people think either way.

Its the real shame about it all really jbw. If haye would just fight someone ranked to stay busythen he would get the fight. As you say he would probably win but until he actually gets in the ring we will never know.

Plus he does have a punchers chance if he ever got a rematch against wlad as the chisora finish showed but thats probably about it. Nine times out of ten wlad would keep him at range with the jab

spencerclarke wrote:Its the real shame about it all really jbw. If haye would just fight someone ranked to stay busythen he would get the fight. As you say he would probably win but until he actually gets in the ring we will never know.

Plus he does have a punchers chance if he ever got a rematch against wlad as the chisora finish showed but thats probably about it. Nine times out of ten wlad would keep him at range with the jab

On the 10th time he knocks Haye out,

severe-mma wrote:He would get a fight in the UFC because hes clearly the best contender out there. The best fight the best in the UFC. In boxing the two Klitschkos get away with not fighting each other and then act like a tag team. It wasnt Vitali that fought Haye, it was his brother. If Vitali had any stones he would fight Haye and when Haye smashes him he will earn his rematch with his brother. Fully fit this time hopefully.

Not strictly true. He would be considered the best contender out there after putting a winning record together against decent opposition. Was Belfort the best contender out there before getting ko'd by Silva? Was Lesnar the best out there before he got his shot? Was Rampage the best before he fought Jones? Is Sonnen the best out there to fight Jones next? In my opinion & many others the answer is no, all still got/are getting there shot.

With regards to Vitali vs Haye the fight isn't a no no, I think Vitali is prepared to fight Haye, he's not written it off. Haye is trying to get his British license back at the moment.

I should say, for my input, that I too would fancy Haye (the same Haye that fought Chisora) against any of the other contenders. Not that I'd bet my house on some of the match-ups, but, given Haye's chin, who'd bet their house on the outcome of any of his fights? Some may be 60/40, others 85/15, but averaged out, I think he's the best of the rest.

severe-mma wrote:Haye didnt want to let down the fans who had booked tickets and travelled.

Didn't frigging bother him in 2009 did it? Not that I am still bitter you understand.

You at work this early Rowley?

No mate at home waiting for TSMR to get ready.

Ah the perpetual wait.

azania wrote:

I've seen a honey badger fight off a lion and a couple of hyenas. Random I know. But so is this new dude.

I saw a European Hornet fight a Grasshopper on my way to work once. True story. Ask Jeff or Union, they will remember it.

I'll give you this one though, Az. I would rather have seen your fight.

I would favour Povetkin to emerge without K2 I think. Hes probably got the most experience and best ledger of the rest so far. Might be too early for the likes of Price/Fury/Pulev to beat him.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote: Ask Jeff or Union, they will remember it.

I'd appreciate it if you would choose Union.

Until Heavyweight boxing can attract an American Heavyweight of substance I believe it will continue to struggle on.....

Unfortunately Boxing in the States has suffered because of the sordid politics of the last twenty or so years I believe....Young people are being attracted away to other sports and also the standard of living has improved making it less necessary for Americans to take up the noble practice to earn a living...Unlike places like Mexico etc..

Less Boxers means less talent.......means less role models. If a Country is good at something ( ie Britain at cycling and croquet). success tends to breed success

..America is where the money and the major networks are and sustained European success just doesn't interest them!! (Lewis was a hard sell..let alone the faceless plodders).

America is an insular nation..Half of Americans never leave their Country and we saw with Benghazi how a massive cockup and cover up never had any impact in the polling...

Price and Fury for me will take over the crowns which will inevitably bring a resurgance in PPV over here....but will do little to enthuse the American networks or fans...which Boxing needs!!

Life without the Klits will be a step in the right direction but won't solve Boxing's problem..

Good post truss and agree with much of it. As you say the states is kind of an insular nature but as Manny has proven success and popularity can be achieved there. Think the problem with the brothers is despite all their countless assets and pluses in the manner they conduct themselves white knuckle excitement inside the ring is not one of them. Also irrespective of the revisionism that occurs frequently on the same was true of Lewis.

Throughout heavyweight history we have always been drawn to the guys that deliver the big knockouts and thrills. Sullivan for all his boorishness was universally adored because he knocked people bandy, likewise Dempsey fought like he had left the gas on and Tyson was loved as he delivered knockouts and unpredictability. Is a depressing landscape currently because even if the brothers exit stage left I struggle to see who delivers this, be they American or otherwise.

Without being patronising to them Rowley...

Mexicans, Filipinos, Panamanians are harmless nations!!

We feel superior to these people and so feel no harm in applauding their successes and wishing them well....kind of like an uncle slapping the ear of a ten year old for getting his swimming badge.....

Also it helpswhen they are exciting..

However with nations like the British we tend to view them as thinking (like Douglas in Wall Street) you are a cut above us....

Hence your lack of popularity.....

Most of my brethren still think you go around with bowler hats on..

Mexicans, Filipinos, Panama.......Harmless types!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

However with nations like the British we tend to view them as thinking (like Douglas in Wall Street) you are a cut above us....

We don't just think it Truss.

Good morning people. I haven't posted anything since the beeb took off 606.

For what its worth regarding Haye - I do think it was classless going on about the toe after the event. Made a rod for his own back. It was the way he brought it up, petulantly and with no dignity. He knows this now, and that's why he wants a second chance.

However....talking to other experienced fighters, apparently a broken toe ( little or big ) is very painful trying to fight and bad for your balance. people "in the know" have said he should have re-scheduled until it healed...this makes sense to me.

To a point I will cautiously go with severe mma. If ( and its all about ifs ) Haye was quicker on his feet ( mended toe ) and more aggressive ( Vlad unlike Vitali doesn't like aggressive ) it would be a lot lot closer.

One thing I have noticed is that Vlad ( and Vitali but less so ) always moves back if a fighter actually jabs at him regardless of the effectiveness of the jab. Fighters never ever exploit this. Fighters keep trying to get under Vlads jab and I think it's clearly a wrong move as how often has it worked!! Vlad has to be forced to fight ( something he is clearly uncomfortable with ) and David is probably the fastest heavyweight around to do this.

I believe Vlad could be backed up a lot more by a super fast double jab from David to gain space, then throw punches before the clinch from Vlad.

It would need serious workrate though...double jabs and attack after attack not in straight lines and moving around the ring constantly.

armchairwarrior wrote:Good morning people. I haven't posted anything since the beeb took off 606.

For what its worth regarding Haye - I do think it was classless going on about the toe after the event. Made a rod for his own back. It was the way he brought it up, petulantly and with no dignity. He knows this now, and that's why he wants a second chance.

However....talking to other experienced fighters, apparently a broken toe ( little or big ) is very painful trying to fight and bad for your balance. people "in the know" have said he should have re-scheduled until it healed...this makes sense to me.

To a point I will cautiously go with severe mma. If ( and its all about ifs ) Haye was quicker on his feet ( mended toe ) and more aggressive ( Vlad unlike Vitali doesn't like aggressive ) it would be a lot lot closer.

One thing I have noticed is that Vlad ( and Vitali but less so ) always moves back if a fighter actually jabs at him regardless of the effectiveness of the jab. Fighters never ever exploit this. Fighters keep trying to get under Vlads jab and I think it's clearly a wrong move as how often has it worked!! Vlad has to be forced to fight ( something he is clearly uncomfortable with ) and David is probably the fastest heavyweight around to do this.

I believe Vlad could be backed up a lot more by a super fast double jab from David to gain space, then throw punches before the clinch from Vlad.

It would need serious workrate though...double jabs and attack after attack not in straight lines and moving around the ring constantly.

ShahenshahG - I can think of things a lot funnier that would warrant less than 5 laughing faces!

Haye lost on points, but look at Vlad. Height, reach, weight advantage and never came close to stopping Haye. If anything his "win" wasn't that great considering his advantages.

Vlad is a fine technician, but if they fought again, provided David was far busier then it could well be a lot closer! Can you dispute that?....

Yes and if Khan had Mcalls chin and Tysons power he'd be greater than Sugar Ray Robinson. Haye cant be busier because he'd gas. He doesnt need more Space against Wlad he needs to cut it down and Throwing a double jab is as useless as throwing a single one because When Wlad steps back he is out of range. You need to get right under his jab and let rip otherwise he'll just Jab you to the win. As for it not being an impressive win - well it wasnt but the only guy in there trying to fight was Wlad. Its very hard to knockout someone whos running away. Ask the few opponents who managed to survive against Tyson prior to Douglas.

I would dispute it. If they fought again I think it would pretty much the same way because Wlad would control the fight again and Haye would be forced into doing what he did last time. Part of the reason Wlad didnt come close to knocking Haye out was because Haye barely engaged.

My reasoning is that if Haye doubles up on the jab it creates a forward momentum ( regardless of connecting ). Vlad would indeed move back out of range, but the initiative would remain with Haye to follow up with combinations at angles and back him up, get closer to try to force Vlad to fight his fight. Haye would have to keep Vlad guessing, and whether he blows or not is down to his conditioning ( and your could be right, he might! )

ShahenshahG, I know these tactics seem dubious to you, but who has actually got under Vlad's superb jab in over 10 years? Sanders was excellent, but Vlad was much greener then.

What would you or Manos suggest as tactics to beat Vlad?

manos de piedra wrote:I would dispute it. If they fought again I think it would pretty much the same way because Wlad would control the fight again and Haye would be forced into doing what he did last time. Part of the reason Wlad didnt come close to knocking Haye out was because Haye barely engaged.

I do agree that Vlad controls fights exceptionally well. Haye or any other fighter must find a way of asserting and controlling the fight that does not involve eating jab after jab and trying round after round to get lucky and land. This seems to be the tactics of most. Why do they not jab their way in, use more lateral movement and be busier? Why on earth do trainers look at the task facing them and seem to say, lets do what other fighters have done for 10 years and try and slip Vlads jab ( and lost ). Puzzles me!

I think its just down to Wlad being much better than everyone else out there (bar possibly his brother). Haye was constantly slagging off the Klitschkos opposition for pretty much the same thing you are saying but as with practically all the Klitschkos opponents in the last 5/6 years, he found its alot harder once you are actually in there. I dont think there is any fighter out there at the moment that could come close to beating Wlad in a jab battle.

You need someone who wont be discouraged and someone who will go forward constantly. and throwing constantly.

Manos, you are bang on. The brothers may be underwhelming in the excitement factor, but they are both very intelligent, talented and well conditioned. They impose their ringcraft with absolute precision on every fighter they face, and Haye found this out. In reality, no shame in being outpointed by a better big guy, but the whole build up precluded the idea of a face saving loss ( regardless of the toe! ).

Re: Life without the Kiltschkos.
by ShahenshahG Today at 12:18 pm

You need someone who wont be discouraged and someone who will go forward constantly. and throwing constantly.


ShahenshahG - totally agree!!. A dream match up would be ike ibeabuchi V either brother . This kind of match would be mouth drooling!

You have to factor in also in another fight...That Wlad would be ten times more confident and Haye would be in with someone who outclassed him!!

Easy to forget the mental aspect of this matchup.....

Easy to also forget...rematch law states that the loser 4 times out of 5 of the first fight................ loses the second even easier!!

armchairwarrior wrote:Good morning people. I haven't posted anything since the beeb took off 606.

For what its worth regarding Haye - I do think it was classless going on about the toe after the event. Made a rod for his own back. It was the way he brought it up, petulantly and with no dignity. He knows this now, and that's why he wants a second chance.

However....talking to other experienced fighters, apparently a broken toe ( little or big ) is very painful trying to fight and bad for your balance. people "in the know" have said he should have re-scheduled until it healed...this makes sense to me.

To a point I will cautiously go with severe mma. If ( and its all about ifs ) Haye was quicker on his feet ( mended toe ) and more aggressive ( Vlad unlike Vitali doesn't like aggressive ) it would be a lot lot closer.

One thing I have noticed is that Vlad ( and Vitali but less so ) always moves back if a fighter actually jabs at him regardless of the effectiveness of the jab. Fighters never ever exploit this. Fighters keep trying to get under Vlads jab and I think it's clearly a wrong move as how often has it worked!! Vlad has to be forced to fight ( something he is clearly uncomfortable with ) and David is probably the fastest heavyweight around to do this.

I believe Vlad could be backed up a lot more by a super fast double jab from David to gain space, then throw punches before the clinch from Vlad.

It would need serious workrate though...double jabs and attack after attack not in straight lines and moving around the ring constantly.

You speak sense so its no surprise the Haye-trz are on your case. Haye is way smaller than Klitschko so relies on his speed heavily. Having a broken completely ruined this and meant he didnt have the movement to get in and ktfo of Wlad. The Klitschkos aint rushing back to fight him. Says it all.

severe-mma wrote:

armchairwarrior wrote:Good morning people. I haven't posted anything since the beeb took off 606.

For what its worth regarding Haye - I do think it was classless going on about the toe after the event. Made a rod for his own back. It was the way he brought it up, petulantly and with no dignity. He knows this now, and that's why he wants a second chance.

However....talking to other experienced fighters, apparently a broken toe ( little or big ) is very painful trying to fight and bad for your balance. people "in the know" have said he should have re-scheduled until it healed...this makes sense to me.

To a point I will cautiously go with severe mma. If ( and its all about ifs ) Haye was quicker on his feet ( mended toe ) and more aggressive ( Vlad unlike Vitali doesn't like aggressive ) it would be a lot lot closer.

One thing I have noticed is that Vlad ( and Vitali but less so ) always moves back if a fighter actually jabs at him regardless of the effectiveness of the jab. Fighters never ever exploit this. Fighters keep trying to get under Vlads jab and I think it's clearly a wrong move as how often has it worked!! Vlad has to be forced to fight ( something he is clearly uncomfortable with ) and David is probably the fastest heavyweight around to do this.

I believe Vlad could be backed up a lot more by a super fast double jab from David to gain space, then throw punches before the clinch from Vlad.

It would need serious workrate though...double jabs and attack after attack not in straight lines and moving around the ring constantly.

You speak sense so its no surprise the Haye-trz are on your case. Haye is way smaller than Klitschko so relies on his speed heavily. Having a broken completely ruined this and meant he didnt have the movement to get in and ktfo of Wlad. The Klitschkos aint rushing back to fight him. Says it all.

Sounds like you have more than one account. what are the odds that two new people sign up at the same time, one talks utter nonsense whilst the other agrees with him?

Maybe three....one of them could be our departed friend..

Gay henry...

severe-mma wrote: The Klitschkos aint rushing back to fight him. Says it all.

Wlad ain't rushing back to fight Mormeck, Chambers or Thompson again, why because he has battered them once and nobody wants to see him do it again. You can probably see where I am going with this.

Have a word, Wlad didnt get anywhere near as close to Haye as those other bums. Couldnt lay a glove on Haye who had a broken toe. Oh yeah and Wlad fought Thompson twice. And Vitali has never fought Haye. Nice one.

Mormeck, Chambers and al...

Makes me feel like turning pro..

severe-mma wrote:Have a word, Wlad didnt get anywhere near as close to Haye as those other bums. Couldnt lay a glove on Haye who had a broken toe. Oh yeah and Wlad fought Thompson twice. And Vitali has never fought Haye. Nice one.

If someone refuses to get in range is difficult to get close. He beat Haye at a canter. However will play serious for a minute question for you. Do you believe if Haye had not had a poorly toe he would have beaten Wlad?

severe-mma wrote:Have a word, Wlad didnt get anywhere near as close to Haye as those other bums. Couldnt lay a glove on Haye who had a broken toe. Oh yeah and Wlad fought Thompson twice. And Vitali has never fought Haye. Nice one.

I imagine Wlad cant run as fast as Haye which is probably why he didnt knock him out. Easy to dodge punches when you are already out of range

severe-mma wrote:Have a word, Wlad didnt get anywhere near as close to Haye as those other bums. Couldnt lay a glove on Haye who had a broken toe. Oh yeah and Wlad fought Thompson twice. And Vitali has never fought Haye. Nice one.

The broken toe didn't affect Haye's ability to move backwards at pace. If only he broke the other toe then perhaps he would have come forward.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Mormeck, Chambers and al...

Makes me feel like turning pro..

Dont do it Truss, You'll fail the drug test and get given a multimillion dollar contract with the IBF

My mate Lance can give me advice...

Haye is the best heavyweight in the world. He has it all. Speed, Power, Timing the lot. If he was a big lummox like Wlad with lanky arms then having a busted toe wouldnt be as bad because he could box at distance but its fairly blinking obvious that when you are relying on your speed and movement to smash a fighter and get on the inside and you have a broken toe you are in a world of trouble. Haye actually did well all things considered. Lets see a fully fit Haye in with one of these Klitschkos. Hes up for it. They aint.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My mate Lance can give me advice...

He'll call you a C** guzzling slag who was born of a rent boy with ivf treatment and slap you with whips and chains. But thats probably bread and butter over at the blue oyster.

Of course hes up for it - easy money - get in the ring and run away for 36 minutes.

severe-mma wrote:Haye is the best heavyweight in the world. He has it all. Speed, Power, Timing the lot. If he was a big lummox like Wlad with lanky arms then having a busted toe wouldnt be as bad because he could box at distance but its fairly blinking obvious that when you are relying on your speed and movement to smash a fighter and get on the inside and you have a broken toe you are in a world of trouble. Haye actually did well all things considered. Lets see a fully fit Haye in with one of these Klitschkos. Hes up for it. They aint.

He hasn't got a belt though.

That's uncanny Shah....you sound as If you know me!!

A glittering career on shows like Most Haunted awaits you.. Mate!!

azania wrote:

severe-mma wrote:Have a word, Wlad didnt get anywhere near as close to Haye as those other bums. Couldnt lay a glove on Haye who had a broken toe. Oh yeah and Wlad fought Thompson twice. And Vitali has never fought Haye. Nice one.

The broken toe didn't affect Haye's ability to move backwards at pace. If only he broke the other toe then perhaps he would have come forward.

Well maybe you could break a few of te Klitschkos toes and send em forward to fight a fully fit Haye coz they dont seem interested. Lets see who they fight next. Some bum nobody heard of I say. Hayes is there if they have the stones to fight him.

ShahenshahG wrote:

severe-mma wrote:Have a word, Wlad didnt get anywhere near as close to Haye as those other bums. Couldnt lay a glove on Haye who had a broken toe. Oh yeah and Wlad fought Thompson twice. And Vitali has never fought Haye. Nice one.

I imagine Wlad cant run as fast as Haye which is probably why he didnt knock him out. Easy to dodge punches when you are already out of range

Easy to slag off Haye when your out of range of his fists and all innit?

Of course but it was easy for Haye to slag of Wlad when he was out of the ring. When he got in it he Poopie his pants - much the same way as I probably would.

You're not for real Mate....

Solis for me has to be in with a shout. World Amateur champ, Olympic Champ, has boxed well as a professional and, granted only for 2mins or so he looked good against Vitali. He's has everything in his locker to beat most other contenders............. with the exception of discipline. If the Klitschko's weren't in the picture that might motivated him to get himself in shape knowing that if he did so he's could be top of the division.

severe-mma wrote:

azania wrote:

severe-mma wrote:Have a word, Wlad didnt get anywhere near as close to Haye as those other bums. Couldnt lay a glove on Haye who had a broken toe. Oh yeah and Wlad fought Thompson twice. And Vitali has never fought Haye. Nice one.

The broken toe didn't affect Haye's ability to move backwards at pace. If only he broke the other toe then perhaps he would have come forward.

Well maybe you could break a few of te Klitschkos toes and send em forward to fight a fully fit Haye coz they dont seem interested. Lets see who they fight next. Some bum nobody heard of I say. Hayes is there if they have the stones to fight him.

Not questioning Haye's stones son. Just his ability to beat Wlad. He hasn't got it. Never has and never will do.

Interesting to think though that the two best fighters he's fought in my opinion...Thompson and Klit ....he didn't turn up!!

Maccaspaghetti was always ordinary..Mormeck tired..