Your Lions 23 after round 2 of the 6 nations

First topic message reminder :

taking this weekends matches into account who would you select in the Lions match day 23?

i'd go with

1. C.Healy
2. R.Best
3. A.Jones
4. J.Launchberry
5. R.Gray
6. S.O'Brien
7. J.Tipuric
8. T.Faletau
9. B.Youngs
10. O.Farrell
11. G.North
12. M.Tuilagi
13. B.O'Driscoll (c)
14. A.Cuthbert
15. L.Halfpenny

16. T.Youngs
17. A.Sheridan
18. D.Cole
19. AW-Jones
20. S.O'Brien
21. M.Phillips
22. J.Sexton
23. J.Roberts

15. Hogg
14. Halfpenny
13. O'Driscoll
12. Barritt
11. Visser

10. Farrell
9. Youngs

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole
4. Evans
5. Launchbury
6. Jones
7. Robshaw
8. Beattie

1. Healey. I mean Heely. I mean Heelie.

Sorry, Healy. You can't go. It seems you divide opinion too much after round 2.

I think the only sure thing from round 2 is that ROG won't be on the bench.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

15. Hogg
14. Halfpenny
13. O'Driscoll
12. Barritt
11. Visser

10. Farrell
9. Youngs

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole
4. Evans
5. Launchbury
6. Jones
7. Robshaw
8. Beattie

Those are the form players after round two but i dont think that team would beat the Aussies with their players back. Lets hope some other lads get up to better form soon.

I dont fancy our chances in Oz without a Ferris, or a Lydiate without someone playing exceptionally better in either halfback position, without BOD on his best form or Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Roberts or Davies proving a lot more ability than they have sown last weekend...

Maes,

I agree but its as post says after round 2. That said if Ryan Jones carries on his form it wouldn't be a surprise to see him tour at least.

No i would have though Ryan jones would have been penciled into the squad a while ago, he has played great rugby the last two seasons.

Thing is so have many others and many are not performing at the moment, not just in Wales.

I posted a team earlier in this thread with a number of new names that have not been in contention so far.

Harley was superb for the Scots, Matt Scott was the best inside centre of the weekend in my opinion. Farrell gets in kind of by default as non of the tens were all that great.

In fact, though not a huge fan of his, but Biggar may deserve to be the Ten of the week.

Farrell missed kicks, couldn't get the backs moving and should have been carded for a poor tackle in the first half. Sexton injured, ROG uninspiring, Jackson did well but again hardly made a great account of his abilities.

I have said all along that I feel players who can cover a few back row positions maybe favoured, you have the likes of Jones, SOB and Robshaw etc who may well tour because of their versatility.

I'd rather give two candidates for each position given that so few players have really shone so far.

1. Healy standing out, Marler edging Grant just now, but Sheridan will probably travel as he is playing well in France and keeping Jenkins out of the side.

2. Best is miles ahead of anyone, Ford for his experience but in truth I see flaws in the remaining contenders or they are out of form.

3. Cole another stand out, Murray next best.

4. Gray, Launchbury

5. Ryan stand out lock for me, Parling

6. Robshaw, with Ferris and Lydiate injured and the best fetching 7s also out of form or injured I have moved him. Harley and Brown could easily travel, likewise Wood.

7. O'Brien, Tipueric - Tipuric in as I think a proper fetcher is important. Rennie and Warburton could make it in the running if fit and on form.

8. Faletau, Beattie on 6N form. This is wide open with Heaslip (another former shoe in tourist) struggling for form. Morgan in with a shout too.

9. Youngs based on 6N form but wide open here too.

10. Sexton, Farrell

11. North, Visser

12. Roberts, Twelvetrees

13. BOD, Tuilagi

14. Zebo, Ashton, Gilroy has looked lively without much to show for it

15. Hogg, Halfpenny, Kearney - I think all 3 will travel but there is scope for Brown squeazing in too based on club form.

So no shortage of finishers with pace to burn among the outside backs. It really is an open race in many positions. The only nailed on tourists for me are:

Healy, Best, Cole, Ryan, Robshaw, O'Brien, Sexton, Farrell, Roberts, Tuillagi, BOD and North. I am sure Robshaw will go (not necessarily start), likewise Faletau, Tuillagi, BOD. All to play for!

Red,

Whilst there is no need for someone to be playing International rugby to get selected but I can't see Sheridan getting the nod ahead of players who are, wouldn't also be hard for someone like Rwontree.

He's involved in selection I guess but hes not picking Sheridan for England yet he gts nod for the Lions.

Also think Jones is ahead of Murray and will travel

I like Sean Maitland. He's shown an ability to link play not many of the other wingers have- and we know he can finish. He has a very, very strong all round game. He's the player who has risen the most in my estimation this Six Nations. I'd have him down as a surefire starter in a competitive spot. I feel like he's a much better all-rounder than Visser or Zebo.

Meanwhile, I've been an advocate of Tuilagi for a long time but he showed little in his cameo. He butchered a try or two albeit in wet conditions. O'Driscoll, who I would not have had near the Text XV a few weeks ago, comes back in for me.

Owen Farrell on the other hand has given me a lot to think about. I like him a lot but not enough to demote Sexton, because Sexton is the bigger draw for defenders and if we go for smaller centres we'll need an outhalf who can attack the gainline.

Finally Stuart Hogg. Have been incredibly impressed with him. Feel Halfpenny may sneak it as a long range place kicker but the pace and elan of this young Scot makes me want to see him on the hard grounds down under with a better pack of forwards in front of him.

For me;

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Dan Cole
4. Joe Launchbury
5. Donnacha Ryan
6. Chris Robshaw
7. Justin Tipuric
8. Ben Morgan
9. Ben Youngs
10. Johnny Sexton
11. George North
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Brian O'Driscoll (c)
14. Sean Maitland
15. Stuart Hogg

bedfordwelsh wrote:Red,

Whilst there is no need for someone to be playing International rugby to get selected but I can't see Sheridan getting the nod ahead of players who are, wouldn't also be hard for someone like Rwontree.

He's involved in selection I guess but hes not picking Sheridan for England yet he gts nod for the Lions.

Also think Jones is ahead of Murray and will travel

I think Jones is ahead as a player in general, but he is a bit out sorts so far and Murray was immense against a very experienced Italian front row. He won't travel though, this not playing on a Sunday rubbish will see to that. Sheridan is not in the England squad because he plays in France, likewise the Armitage brothers. I can see Steffon being considered if Warburton and Rennie remain injured and out of sorts. There is so much about this Lions build up that is wide wide open, due to the ideal mean being either injured or off the boil. There isn't even a stand out, obvious captain... although maybe Rory Best cuts that figure.

Best is the only one who has shown some consistency, I would have said Heaslip but he himself had bit of shocker on Sunday.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Red,

Whilst there is no need for someone to be playing International rugby to get selected but I can't see Sheridan getting the nod ahead of players who are, wouldn't also be hard for someone like Rwontree.

He's involved in selection I guess but hes not picking Sheridan for England yet he gts nod for the Lions.

Also think Jones is ahead of Murray and will travel

I think if Alex Corbisiero is fit he would be a better option than Sheridan. Sheridan has looked very good for Toulon though.

Unfortunately though we have some great looseheads available a good number of them are frequently injured. Gethin, Sheridan, Corbs all often out.

Might well see lads like James, Grant, Marler get in because of that.

Healy, on form and without errant uncharacteristic behaviour is still in pole position for the number 1 shirt.

Redrage wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Red,

Whilst there is no need for someone to be playing International rugby to get selected but I can't see Sheridan getting the nod ahead of players who are, wouldn't also be hard for someone like Rwontree.

He's involved in selection I guess but hes not picking Sheridan for England yet he gts nod for the Lions.

Also think Jones is ahead of Murray and will travel

I think Jones is ahead as a player in general, but he is a bit out sorts so far and Murray was immense against a very experienced Italian front row. He won't travel though, this not playing on a Sunday rubbish will see to that. Sheridan is not in the England squad because he plays in France, likewise the Armitage brothers. I can see Steffon being considered if Warburton and Rennie remain injured and out of sorts. There is so much about this Lions build up that is wide wide open, due to the ideal mean being either injured or off the boil. There isn't even a stand out, obvious captain... although maybe Rory Best cuts that figure.

Red

I think Jones has been good in the last three games since injury. He gave away four penalties in Paris but the Ref hadn't a clue at the scrum

maestegmafia wrote:
Red

I think Jones has been good in the last three games since injury. He gave away four penalties in Paris but the Ref hadn't a clue at the scrum

Well I shall pay a bit more attention to him in a couple weeks time. I will be very surprised if he doesn't travel anyway.

1. James
2. R.Best
3. A.Jones
4. J.Launchberry
5. R.Gray (c)
6.Wood
7. J.Tipuric
8. T.Faletau
9. Phillips
10. O.Farrell
11. G.North
12. M.Tuilagi
13. B.O'Driscoll
14. Halfpenny
15. Hogg

16. Hibbard
17. A.Sheridan
18. D.Cole
19. Ryan Jones
20. Haskell
21. Youngs
22. J. Sexton
23. Kearney

BOLD suggested changes
Italics straight swap or change of position.

Redrage wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:
Red

I think Jones has been good in the last three games since injury. He gave away four penalties in Paris but the Ref hadn't a clue at the scrum

Well I shall pay a bit more attention to him in a couple weeks time. I will be very surprised if he doesn't travel anyway.

Aye he has kept Wales in the fight for a decade. He's a top player.

maestegmafia wrote:

Aye he has kept Wales in the fight for a decade. He's a top player.

Yep and Gatland knows him inside out, I am not suggesting favouritism - if I was Gatland and I had a close pick between a known and unknown... I would be going with the known every time. In Jones, you know you are getting a world class prop with a wealth of experience and sound temperament. Possibly past his very best, but still better than most.

Past his very best? He's two years from his peak. His fringe defence is awesome. On Saturday he was making tackles yards from the ruck and knocking Frenchmen back. In fact so was Jenkins, but his scrummaging was so bad it weakened that side of the Welsh scrum leading to a imbalance. Put someone like James or Grant at 1 and you can bank on Adam.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Best is the only one who has shown some consistency, I would have said Heaslip but he himself had bit of shocker on Sunday.

I'll be honest I get a little annoyed seeing Heaslip in the last two weekends teams. He wasn't even the best 8 on the park against Wales the week before.

"I'll be honest I get a little annoyed seeing Heaslip in the last two weekends teams. He wasn't even the best 8 on the park against Wales the week before."

+1

Glas a du wrote:Past his very best? He's two years from his peak. His fringe defence is awesome. On Saturday he was making tackles yards from the ruck and knocking Frenchmen back. In fact so was Jenkins, but his scrummaging was so bad it weakened that side of the Welsh scrum leading to a imbalance. Put someone like James or Grant at 1 and you can bank on Adam.

I wold put a lot more of the weight of the scrum problems on Clancy's shoulders than any of the front-rowers on the pitch

What do we think about the French exiles at the moment?

People with a realistic shot at making the plane, depending on far sighted Gats is willing to be about people not in the 6N at the moment, are (no particular order):

S. Armitage (voted the outstanding player in the Top 14 last season)
N. Hines (keystone of the Clermont bad boys pack)
L. Byrne (can't stand him personally, but he's been in excellent form)
M. Philips ()
L. Charteris (quality)
A. Sheridan (borderline, but he's been very good, I think)

Players whom I think (rightly or wrongly) will miss out are:

J. Wilkinson
D. Armitage
G. Jenkins
J. Hook
H. Bennett

On the Welsh boys:

Charteris - out with injury
Byrne - really cant see him going given that Gatland has ignored him for Wales
Phillips - will go for experience and his style of play
Hook - versatility will be key but cant see him making this one
Jenkins - if Sheridan goes then Jenkins won't
Bennett - not in a million years

You're underestimating Phillips' leadership boys. I was in Dublin last year and Paris this. OK he doesn't distribute most swiftly of our options there but he is a real general, he lifts the team, the bigger the game the better he plays. He's nailed on.

We have no need of Sheridan - plenty of better pros around than this flat track bully -- what has he done for years?

Philips - a lions team with him at 9 will lose every game. we need someone to distribute the ball to the backs

As an Irish fan I hope theres not many Irish players involved. The Lions series takes alot out of the players especially seeing as they should be resting.

prof,

They can refuse to go if they want rest, most to a man still regard it as the highest accolade they will achieve in their carear.

If England turn out to be an accomplished team under Lancaster in coming years - and that's certainly still a big if - then this year's selection will look fascinating in retrospect.

England didn't do too badly in the 2009 Six Nations but the Welsh and Irish made up the bulk of the squad and I can't say I felt too many English players were unlucky. More importantly, the Welsh really stood up on that tour and my disappointment with the recent run of Welsh losses is through the prism of how good Roberts, Jones, Phillips et al performed in South Africa.

England went one better last year. As in 2009, they finished second in the Six Nations, but won four matches instead of three. In 2009, they lost to Ireland and Wales but only lost to Wales in 2012. Nevertheless, the Lions picks which appeared around this time last year, still largely favoured Wales and Ireland.

Even now, with England the only unbeaten team in the tournament, you can find some Lions first XV picks out there with only a couple of English forwards in the mix. This week, admittedly, there are also more which have begun to consider Robshaw and the halfbacks.

There are a few reasons for this. One is our memories of the previous tour. If a player did well in 2009, then it seems we are more likely to give him a pass for this year. The reasoning isn't entirely sentimental. The Lions needs people to buy into the experience and its easier to imagine players doing that if they have already shown they can do so.

It's clear England can't benefit from that halo effect when you look at who made the 2009 tour: Shaw, Worsley, Ellis, Croft, Mears, Monye, Flutey, Payne, Sheridan and Vickery. Tom Croft is the only player still in the England EPS. It's perhaps no coincidence that he still gets mentioned as a potential tourist, despite being out of action for so long, and also up against heavy competition.

After the 2009 Lions Tour, England beat Australia and won a Six Nations Championship. Before the World Cup letdown, we were talking about players other than Croft as potential Lions. In particular, Lawes, Hartley, Ashton, Foden and Ben Youngs. Yes, Tuilagi had a reasonable World Cup before he went swimming, but he was a newcomer and didn't really rise significantly above the medocrity of that England performance.

Out of those, only Ben Youngs is now being mentioned as a potential starter. Hartley and Ashton are not excluded but both seem to wind up certain constituencies. It's an interesting contrast how Ashton is often spoken of as having lost form while George North received relatively little criticism while Wales were on their losing run.

Perhaps one reason why the average Lions starting XV still has relatively little English representation is because Lancaster's selections are turning in accomplished team performances without anyone easily being identifiable as a star player. If they flop over the next three games then that's how it will likely stay.

If, instead, England do well, it will be fascinating to see whether Gatland overhauls his selections. We don't know what he is thinking but his changing comments on Chris Robshaw are instructive. One moment, the English captain is an ill-fitting 6 1/2, the next he is a reinvented high performer.

The most likely outcome, if England do well this year, is that Gatland increases his English contingent but starts the tour seeing them as dirtrackers or squad players rather than potential first XV picks. Funnily enough, that's just how many of the English players travelled to Australia in 1989.

bedfordwelsh wrote:prof,

They can refuse to go if they want rest, most to a man still regard it as the highest accolade they will achieve in their carear.

Indeed. On a personal level I would be happy for them. It can have a negative effect on their long term health.

Yes. Look at Stephen Jones in the seasons after the last two tours.

Lions starting
Healy - only Gethin has a look in and despite a great game on Saturday he is off the boil
Best - Youngs and even Hibberd will push but this guy is almost nailed on
Cole - mobility and loose play as much as set piece, Jones will push
Gray - a quieter 6 nations but on the rampage he is a joy to watch
Ryan - POC who?
Jones - Wood and Lydiate will push strongly but he just showed his Leadesrhip credentials and is an experienced Lion
Robshaw Capt - ok were it not for Pocock i would say he almost deserves it, but perhaps only Warburton at his best can negate that threat
Faletau - Morgan and Heaslip are right up there too
Youngs - Look at the effect of taking off Philipps saturday, quick ball + try...much as i admire Philipps I want a nippy 9 and both Youngs and Care should figure
Farrell - remind you of anyone? Superb with Sexton on the bench
North - well he needed that excellent finish and needs to be used more.
36 - can play 10 outside Farrell and is solid as a rock. Or Jamie Route 1
Manu - BOD isn't due any more kids in June is he? JD2 will push but his passing is past its sell by date v the best back line in the world
Halfpenny - a great great player and talisman, you know he will put his body on the line, is strong under the inevitable high ball from a team that plays territory superbly
Kearney - frankly the best 15 since Serge! Hogg and Halfpenny will push

The nailed on front row should be Healy, Best and Cole. Two of those are dynamite at the breakdown and stealing opposition ball.

My balanced back row to take on Aus would be 6, Robshaw, 7, Tipuric & 8, Beattie. All good at the breakdown and tend to recycle/offload the ball well.

Locks - well what do we want? Grunt behind the front row would lead to Hamilton and Evans/Davies/Ryan. If you want a good lineout then Gray & Parling.

9, Youngs or Care - all round the best we have atm.

10, a shoot out between Sexton and Farrell so far.

11, I want a good defensive wing against Aus, and we haven't got one on this side??? The best atacking threat - North or Visser.

12, Tuilagi*

13, O'Driscoll *he will do the same for Tuilagi as he did for Roberts in 2009.

14, Halfpenny (no worries about his tackling).

15, Brown/Kearney (if both are on form there's not much to choose between them).

There are exciting youngsters I've left out, but this is about winning a Lions test series. Not about the development of the youngsters.

It staggers me that so many are still ignoring Hogg. He has been the form full back of the 6N beyond any doubt.

He is so IMO the same distance in front of the other options as Best and Cole are in front of their challengers.

People are still mentioning Visser too. I have been one of Visser's biggest fans but currently there is no way I would have him anywhere near the starting XV. I would happily move Halfpenny to the wing to make room for Hogg at full back.

Just like JPR forced Irvine for the wing in the Lions I reckon Hogg will force Halfpenny to the wing this year, I would want both of them on the pitch with North on the other wing.

Radge - I think that I may have to stop looking at these threads until the 6N is over because they frequently make me want to take a dump on my keyboard.

Mentions of Lydiate (has been out for a year), Ferris (has barely played for months), Twelvetrees (who has the mighty total of 80 minutes of international experience of any kind) and a whole clown car of players who played quite well anything from 12-24 months ago. Absolutely Jersey-Shore barking.

As Rugby Fan elegantly points out above, being in a winning team indicates a cohesive collective who understands and implements the game plan that they've been given but does not mean that every player in that team is automatically the best player in their position - something, thankfully, that Gatland is likely to understand.

Becoming increasingly hard on these boards to take some of this stuff seriously. Thanks very much to those posters who have held back from bombast and who can actually be objective about their nation's players.

15 - Hogg
14 - Maitland
13 - O'Driscoll
12 - Scott
11 - North
10 - Farrell
9 - Laidlaw
8 - Faletau
7 - O'Brien
6 - Wood
5 - Launchbury
4 - Evans
3 - Cole
2 - Best
1 - Marler

For now. I'll probably change my mind each time I write it out though...

screamingaddabs wrote:15 - Hogg
14 - Maitland
13 - O'Driscoll
12 - Scott
11 - North
10 - Farrell
9 - Laidlaw
8 - Faletau
7 - O'Brien
6 - Wood
5 - Launchbury
4 - Evans
3 - Cole
2 - Best
1 - Marler

For now. I'll probably change my mind each time I write it out though...

Anyone would think you are from Scotland.....oh

Whilst i get contry of loyalty bias I think this team is a bit too heavily laden with Scots although i completely agree Hogg is a definite possibility

To be fair this is a thread focused on round 2 of the 6 Nations, and accordingly there's a good case to be made for each of the Scots suggested above.

Hogg you've conceded has a good case.

Maitland has been good in both rounds, has an excellent allround game, set up a try, and frankly had little competition from the other right wingers in round 2 (Ashton didn't have a good game, Gilroy was quiet and Cuthbert hardly shone).

Laidlaw was MOTM so surely must be in contention.

Scott played very well, scored a try, could have had two others, and carried and defended strongly. There is certainly a good case for others. Roberts was strong in defence and Twelvetrees has made a good case for himself in both games so far, but Scott had a great game, and so a case can be made.

funnyExiledScot wrote:To be fair this is a thread focused on round 2 of the 6 Nations, and accordingly there's a good case to be made for each of the Scots suggested above.

Hogg you've conceded has a good case.

Maitland has been good in both rounds, has an excellent allround game, set up a try, and frankly had little competition from the other right wingers in round 2 (Ashton didn't have a good game, Gilroy was quiet and Cuthbert hardly shone).

Laidlaw was MOTM so surely must be in contention.

Scott played very well, scored a try, could have had two others, and carried and defended strongly. There is certainly a good case for others. Roberts was strong in defence and Twelvetrees has made a good case for himself in both games so far, but Scott had a great game, and so a case can be made.

Sure, all good points but If you think that based on round 2 BOD would not even get on the plane it is clear the Lions is not selected on the basis of 6 Nations performance in isolation, it may be a showcase for relative newcomers to press their cases if they are outstanding though and good luck to them but I am afraid the selections are mostly already in Gat's mind and he is looking for outliers now - i would certainly hope that is the case as we are 4 months off and he has been in the job for months already. . I think Gray, Beattie, Hogg and Rennie if fit may be in contention. I am afraid I don't think Laidlaw is and Maitland, though clearly a good player, is not but that sjust my view!

Based on rounds 1 and 2 only

Healy-best-jones
Parling-Ryan
Sob-Beattie-tipuric
Youngs-Farrell
Twelvetrees-bod
Halfpenny-Hogg-zebo

Youngs-marler-cole-launchberry-faletau-laidlaw-sexton-ashton

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Based on rounds 1 and 2 only

Healy-best-jones
Parling-Ryan
Sob-Beattie-tipuric
Youngs-Farrell
Twelvetrees-bod
Halfpenny-Hogg-zebo

Youngs-marler-cole-launchberry-faletau-laidlaw-sexton-ashton

Pete, hate to say it, but I think you're either doing your best to be even-handed to all nations (admirable) or are taking into account more than just rounds 1&2, but Tipuric is imho a highly questionable call? Btw, I like Tipuric as a player, but he's not done anything to get close to a Lions test slot based on just rounds 1&2

100%beefy wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:15 - Hogg
14 - Maitland
13 - O'Driscoll
12 - Scott
11 - North
10 - Farrell
9 - Laidlaw
8 - Faletau
7 - O'Brien
6 - Wood
5 - Launchbury
4 - Evans
3 - Cole
2 - Best
1 - Marler

For now. I'll probably change my mind each time I write it out though...

Anyone would think you are from Scotland.....oh

Whilst i get contry of loyalty bias I think this team is a bit too heavily laden with Scots although i completely agree Hogg is a definite possibility

I'm actually English...

I should also say I have based it just on weeks 1 and 2. Admittedly Laidlaw may be a little much, but I think Youngs can go to pieces a bit sometimes and didn't have his best game this week, and Murray played woefully this week, dropping everything. Phillips was also poor.

At 12 I was tempted to put Barritt, but I think Scott has had a couple of good games now and looks decent. Scotland have some very good players, they just don't seem to gel (and there are a few positions where they are lacking - S Lamont is not a 13 for example).

On the contrary, screaming, I would say that Youngs had just about the most influential game that he has ever had for England. Showed a maturity that I thought he lacked. The very fact that Care wasn't called on to add something from the bench, as he almost always is, spoke volumes for Youngs' performance, which has made him the undoubted front-runner for the Lions Test job.

A side point on Barritt, who probably won't make the Test team. I think that he is the ideal dirt-tracker centre, personally. The Aussie midweek teams will go all out to unsettle the Lions in their games and it's vital for the cohesion of the party that they're not allowed to succeed. Remember how effective "Donal's Doughnuts" were in 89 in boosting the morale of the whole Lions party, and how contrastingly useless the dirt trackers were in 93, when they threw a wet blanket over almost everything they touched. A dirt-trackers team that includes men of the stamp of Ryan Jones, Barritt and Kelly Brown should ensure that no liberties can be taken with them.