To what extent is the Irish 'golden generation' a myth?

There are believers in the fact that Ireland has a certain inevitability and has generated a progression in a virtuous circle and progress.

Sceptics may differ. The fast spring tide of Irish success followed by a slow ebb is evidence of the decline of a magical period and exactly justifies their predictions regarding the rise and fall of a golden generation.

Let's look at it this way - if you were to set down an all-time post-war Ireland XV, it's not unreasonable to think that as many as half of them would have played within the past decade. Certainties would be O'Driscoll and O'Connell, but Geordan Murphy, Bowe, Stringer, Ferris, Hayes and maybe Heaslip would all be up for consideration (I'm not counting Wood as a part of this generation).

The great side of the early 70s had McBride, Slattery, Gibson and McLoughlin, but a fair few passengers as well. The team of the 40s featured Kyle and Mullan, but again, not the all-round strength of this lot. In terms of strength in depth, I'd say that this generation of Irish rugby has been the strongest ever, which is what makes their relative lack of silverware so irritating. It's certainly miles better than the side of the early-mid 80s that picked up more than one championship.

Like all things, it's cyclical, of course, but I can't help thinking that in 50 years people will hark back to this group of players with nostalgia and a certain bemusement at opportunities missed.

Yeah things go in cycles. I don't buy into this golden generation thing either.

We had a load of quality players around a similar age - Horgan, Dempsey, Hickie, D'arcy, ROG, Stringer, Hayes, Flannery, O'Kelly, O'Callaghan, Wallace, Foley, easterbuy, Maggs etc. led by one of the best forwards of their generation in O'Connell and probably the best player Ireland have ever produced - O'Driscoll.

The core group I think were not as good as the group we have now:
- Sexton, Ferris, Heaslip, Bowe, SOB, Healy, Best, Kearney, Ryan etc. are as good as or maybe better than a lot of the above but the difference is having a prime BOD or POC in the side every game. Those two are irreplacable.

Generally though we have more depth and quality than at the turn of the naughties.

I dont buy into the idea of golden generations. I think a more important consideration is how the IRFU has improved from one of the most amatureish unions to a really professional forward thinking organisation.

As Rodders pointed out we have a lot of good young players now that arent of the "golden generation" so I think the most important thing is to keep the structures in place to continue to develop young talented players.

It was a golden generation for Ireland. Certainly compared to the 90's generation who were the worst team in the 5 nations. In the 00s Ireland were much improved with some classy players.

Theres a new wave of players about to come through in the next year or so that should improve Ireland.

I thought Wales were the worst team in the 5 nations ....

profitius wrote:It was a golden generation for Ireland. Certainly compared to the 90's generation who were the worst team in the 5 nations. In the 00s Ireland were much improved with some classy players.

Theres a new wave of players about to come through in the next year or so that should improve Ireland.

A golden generation implies it is a once off group. It is not. The current crop is just as good as the so called "golden generation" and therefore it is fairly obvious that what really changed with Irish rugby after the 90s was not just the quality of player but the quality of everything associated with the IRFU meaning better drilled players were being developed and sustained.

I'm not sure that I quite agree, Guns. if we take away O'Driscoll and O'Connell, as Ireland will have to very soon, this crop is not quite as accomplished as the one that probably should have won three championships up to and including 2009. As it is, too many games are going astray for a positive comparison. The current group are pretty fair, but they lack the star quality of the bunch from five or six years ago.

It was also the first generation to have played their entire career in the professional era which is bound to have improved standards.

While we dont have a BOD or POC at their peak at the moment the average ability of Irish players now i would say is better than it was during this Golden Generation

If there has been a flaw in the system it is that too much emphasis has been put on player retention and not enough on succession planning and future development.... a desire within the IRFU to kick the can of rebuilding down the road to avoid the inevitable drop in performance that comes with bringing through new players.

In that respect perhaps the IRFU did and still do buy into the idea of a golden generation.

Golden wrote:It was also the first generation to have played their entire career in the professional era which is bound to have improved standards.

While we dont have a BOD or POC at their peak at the moment the average ability of Irish players now i would say is better than it was during this Golden Generation

Absolutely, guys like Easterbuy *2, Maggs, Howe, Horan and quite a few others wouldn't get near the 22 now. Trimble was regular 22nd man under EOS and couldn't make the 6N squad this season despite being better now than he was then. Brian Carney made the 2007 RWC squad ffs.

It's easy to look back with rose tinted specs but we have better players now, generally speaking.

captain carrantuohil wrote:I'm not sure that I quite agree, Guns. if we take away O'Driscoll and O'Connell, as Ireland will have to very soon, this crop is not quite as accomplished as the one that probably should have won three championships up to and including 2009. As it is, too many games are going astray for a positive comparison. The current group are pretty fair, but they lack the star quality of the bunch from five or six years ago.

O'Driscoll is a one in a hundred years player. Drico aside I think everyone else is replaceable. One player doesnt make a golden generation.

Some examples:

ROG -> Sexton
Hickey -> Bowe
David Wallace -> Sean O'Brien
Anthony Foley -> Jamie Heaslip
Dempsey/Murphy -> Kearney
Keith Wood -> Flannery/Best
Peter Stringer -> no one but scrum half is always our bogey position and we have at least 3 international class players whereas before we were lucky to have one.
John Hayes -> Mike Ross
MO'K -> Donnacha Ryan
Shane Horgan -> Simon Zebo

It really is mostly like for like.

Golden generation if we compare rugby since the 90s onwards... didn't Ireland win the 5N 3 times in the early 80s? Far better record then the 1 title in 09.

Isn't a golden generation meant to mean the best of their era, not just their country. Over the same period Wales have won 3 GS and France won 4 titles inc. 2 GS.

Perhaps the team of 04-07 had better individuals at their peak then this side but I reckon the class of 2013 are a better all-round side.

O'Connell is Ireland's greatest ever lock, for me and adds the leadership up front which is sometimes going missing at the moment. Hayes is far superior to Ross; Wallace was a proper open-side of the type that Deccie doesn't seem to want to pick these days. Stringer made the position his own, while EOS and Kidney have since ummed and ahed about Tomas suffering O'Leary, among others. In the crucial positions, there has not been an improvement, to my eye.

It's not all bad, by any stretch - Bowe and Sexton are stand-out improvements - but I don't think that the overall quality has increased since 2009. Quite the reverse. Ireland should arguably have won titles in 2006 and 2007, as well as 2009, and should have been in a position in 2005 at least to contest a GS, rather than chucking away the game against France. By contrast, we can't really say that the team has been in a position even to say "close but no cigar" since 09.

captain carrantuohil wrote:O'Connell is Ireland's greatest ever lock, for me and adds the leadership up front which is sometimes going missing at the moment. Hayes is far superior to Ross; Wallace was a proper open-side of the type that Deccie doesn't seem to want to pick these days. Stringer made the position his own, while EOS and Kidney have since ummed and ahed about Tomas suffering O'Leary, among others. In the crucial positions, there has not ben an improvement, to my eye.

It's not all bad, by any stretch - Bowe and Sexton are stand-out improvements - but I don't think that the overall quality has increased since 2009. Quite the reverse. Ireland should arguably have won titles in 2006 and 2007, as well as 2009, and should have been in a position in 2005 at least to contest a GS, rather than chucking away the game against France. By contrast, we can't really say that the team has been in a position even to say "close but no cigar" since 09.

there is no way Hayes was way better than Ross. Hayes could barely scrummage.

Wallace was never a classic openside. Great player though.

What you arent factoring in is that Wales, England and Italy are vastly improved sides from the teams that Ireland routenely beat with the "golden generation" side. For years Ireland were practically guaranteed a win v Wales and post '03 England were all over the place having gone through a huge reshuffle of players and staff.

France have been a consistently strong side yet we consisently lose to them anyway.

Guns, that England side that won the 2011 championship was one of the poorest teams to have won a championship in any era. The Welsh GS side of last year was, in my opinion, a fair bit weaker than the side that won it all in 2008, and certainly than the winners of 2005. I give you the France of 2010 as a strong side, but they certainly haven't been especially vintage since. I'm afraid that I don't subscribe to the notion that standards have risen since 2005, for example. Italy are better (as they damn well should be, by now), England are better this year and Scotland are better. I'd make Wales, Ireland and France clearly less good.

captain carrantuohil wrote:
Ireland should arguably have won titles in 2006 and 2007, as well as 2009, and should have been in a position in 2005 at least to contest a GS, rather than chucking away the game against France. By contrast, we can't really say that the team has been in a position even to say "close but no cigar" since 09.

Possibly in 2001 as well. How much of that is down to the fact that England and Wales were generally weaker throughout the mid naughties bar Wales GS years?

As a team 1-15 there were better Irish sides over the past 10 years but if you are judging by personnel then no I think all things considered we have a much stronger panel now, especially when you look at the injury list we have had recently.

The golden generation rather coincided with England's decline from the mountain top, I accept that, Rodders. However, Wales have been unfathomable for a decade, either winning everything or playing as though their feet have been set in concrete. That's still the case now. Despite the fact that England won the title in 2011, I can't think that side was any better than the also-rans of the previous half a dozen years.

The overall record of the NH against the SH is certainly no better now, even allowing for a couple of slightly fortuitous, although very meritorious, weather-assisted Scottish wins against Australia.

The golden generation are almost gone but the new players who have come through are almost if not as wonderful as these and we definitely have a bit more depth in almost every position than we did ten years ago.

I'm looking forward to the platinum generation coming into their own.

Dare I mention that this Irish 'golden generation' was just infact them catching up with the English in the professional era.

Since the early 2000's England have become middling of the pack for one reason and one reason only, the rest of the home nations who put into practice sport science and engaged in the professional era closed the gap and became competitive.

Ireland and Wales have arguably been the best 2 home nations teams in the last 10 years with England close behind (or on par if you prefer) and this has something to do with the standards of coaching, professional behaviour and stronger infrastructures put in place by the other nations.

The 'golden generation' tag was mostly because of the first real world class players Ireland have produced in numbers, POC and BOD would prove match winners, but in reality Irelands 'golden generation' were just the first, and from here on in they will produce more and more top class players, and as long as they stay up to date in current training/coaching methods they will continue to be one of the strongest teams in the NH.

Ireland were only marginally behind France in the 6N during the period 2000 - 2009. They averaged 2nd spot, but only one title. There were several Triple Crowns though. Since 2009 Ireland have gone backwards in the 6N.

I have commented before on Ireland's apparent inability to stay in top gear throughout a tournament. This is especially true during a RWC when there are no 'rest weekends'.

I don't think that record can be laid at the door of some very gifted players. It must have something to do with their preparation; both physical and mental.

The Golden Generation is a complete myth. Ireland have sporadically produced world class players in most positions over the years. The instigation of it was Eddie O'Sullivan who kept picking the same players despite there being plenty of suitable alternatives who were just as good. The familiarity of the players made the public think it was a golden generation, but it was just Eddie's policy.

Of course EOS's policy of having untouchables backfired on him as one injury meant that he had to always draft in inexperience and his best laid plans fell apart. This meant he secured Triple Crowns but never had the depth to get a Slam.

Golden generation is an overstatement. However from 2000 to 2009 Ireland were more consistent and won more games plus a number of triple crowns and a grand slam not to mind the HC success ..than at any other time. Best Irish team ever, the only other team to come near would be the GS team in 48 or the early 70s with Tom Kiernan et al. The team that played the best rugby was Mick Doyles in the 80s... Paul Dean was our best running oh ever..

I'm going to have to call you on that one, DOD. Better than Kyle and Ward? I liked the Dean of St. Mary's, but I don't think that I've ever heard praise that high for him.

As a by the way, I don't think that the 80s team played better rugby than some of the stuff that Gibson, Slatts et al turned out in the early 70s. What I will say about the Fitzgerald-led side is that they were much greater than the sum of their parts, which probably wasn't the case either for the 70s team or the "golden generation".

Deans career was cut short because of injury...he only got a couple of years..a Deans backline was always dangerous...couldn't kick for Poopie though...i think Madigan is like him

Couple of years, DOD? He played for virtually the whole of the 80s (at 10 from 84) and amassed thirty-odd caps, which was quite a few back then. Good player and all that, I'm not denying it, but the fact that he won 13 more caps than his much more talented near-contemporary Ward still rankles a bit with me.

rodders wrote:I thought Wales were the worst team in the 5 nations ....

Even in the 90's we won a five nations championship.

I think that Ireland had one of the lowest ratio of internation player to total player.

I think in the last 20 years we have seen rugby growing as general sport. As a result we are getting more players in so we are getting more players out.

It is easy to say the the 00s were a golden generation because they finished 1-3 every year and beat everyone except France usually well. But this rising generation has as much expectation if not more then the "Golden"

I think the Golden generation should be called the best team for 20 years.

Can someone name the 15/30 players of this golden generation and the year they finished international rugby. I don't think half the starting team of the GS was the golden generation.

maestegmafia wrote:

rodders wrote:I thought Wales were the worst team in the 5 nations ....

Even in the 90's we won a five nations championship.

Along with the odd wooden spoon if I remember correctly..... ....