England vs France: Match Thread

[nathan]

First topic message reminder :

Couldn't see a match thread for this, so i created this one.

Getting nervous, haven't a clue who will win.

[bluestonevedder]

Cheers, Beshocked

I don't understand how Ashton's defence can be so poor. The team obviously watch the game back, and isn't he just so embarrassed to see it on the replay?

The French scrum was a very different animal with Domingo back, and I guess you're right that the locks can't be blamed for our front row's problems in the game. Cole has the very occassional brain fart, and Marler's scrummaging still worrries me a little.

I thought Vunipola was really goo dwhen he came on actually. The scrum held up well (although, the French row was changed), and his carrying was very very good.

[dummy_half]

I wonder if the scrum problems were contributed to by the back row as well - Wood is not a genuine 8 and probably doesn't do all that much to either drive the scrum forwards or to help keep the locks in position, while Lawes at 6 is probably less good at supporting his prop than Haskell is.

It's a tricky one to assess quite how much impact our subs had, as while ours seemed to improve the team (Haskell in particular), France's changes in the same part of the game significantly weakened their side and handed all the advantages to us.

[Alex_Germany]

Vunipola made a very positive impact. Two thoughts:

1. He nearly got carded for obstruction. That would have been second time
2. I cannot believe he's fit enough to go 80 minutes. (Says me, anonymously )

[bluestonevedder]

Yeh Alex, he was incredibly lucky considering the needless infraction. Very lucky indeed!

He certainly doesn't look too fit, but his carrying was very good. Bit worried though, since he got bumped off by Picamoles in his first 10 seconds off the bench.

[Barney McGrew did it]

People have a go at Haskell for brainfarts, but Vunipola is a walking YC. We can't beat top sides with 14 men. Until he sorts this out the best we should expect from him is the occassional cameo. He also takes pie eating a bit too seriously.

SL got unlucky with injuries, but his 'universal rugby player' approach is flawed. A b/s has to be able to tackle all day, a no 8 has to be confident about his role. Thank god for Robshaw.

[beshocked]

Cheers, Beshocked

I don't understand how Ashton's defence can be so poor. The team obviously watch the game back, and isn't he just so embarrassed to see it on the replay?

The French scrum was a very different animal with Domingo back, and I guess you're right that the locks can't be blamed for our front row's problems in the game. Cole has the very occassional brain fart, and Marler's scrummaging still worrries me a little.

I thought Vunipola was really goo dwhen he came on actually. The scrum held up well (although, the French row was changed), and his carrying was very very good.

I think Ashton's a bit standoffish with his tackling. He seems to shirk the tackle too many times. Doesn't get stuck in plus he has a poor technique.

It's strange that the Saracens coaches haven't looked to correct his flaws in that area let alone the English ones.

[LondonTiger]

Ashton got what 3 YCs early in the season for over physical attempts at tackling. Perhaps he has now gone too much the other way?

[beshocked]

LondonTiger I wouldn't call Ashton's 3 YCs tackling. Basically shoulder charging.

Probably down to his rugby league background. Tomkins and Farrell Jr have shown indications of this too.

I think both players need to iron these out of their play.

[Triangulation]

Cheers, Beshocked

I don't understand how Ashton's defence can be so poor. The team obviously watch the game back, and isn't he just so embarrassed to see it on the replay?

The French scrum was a very different animal with Domingo back, and I guess you're right that the locks can't be blamed for our front row's problems in the game. Cole has the very occassional brain fart, and Marler's scrummaging still worrries me a little.

I thought Vunipola was really goo dwhen he came on actually. The scrum held up well (although, the French row was changed), and his carrying was very very good.

I think Ashton's a bit standoffish with his tackling. He seems to shirk the tackle too many times. Doesn't get stuck in plus he has a poor technique.

It's strange that the Saracens coaches haven't looked to correct his flaws in that area let alone the English ones.

It looked as though Ashtobn actually jumped right out of Fofana's way and thyat Fofana just continued on his merry way. Did Fofana "headfake" him? or what? Ashton - watch the hips! The hips dont lie!!

[dummy_half]

Tri

Ashton had a France player to mark on his outside as well, so couldn't commit to coming inside and taking Fofana until it was too late to do anything effective. The big issue was Lawes not getting across and filling the hole that Fofana went through. So while Ashton's tackling has been decidedly ropey, I think he's picking up too much stick for this particular miss (although his attempted recovery tackle was pretty poor - a couple more strides and I think he could have got Fofana and pulled him to touch).

[yappysnap]

Ben Youngs as well chose the odd option of going high and standing off Fofana when tracking across.

Just generally a poor moment for the Eng defence, on the plus side you could see form the way the players restarted that it didn't bother them at all, absolutely no fear about going behind.

[Big]

Cheers, Beshocked

I don't understand how Ashton's defence can be so poor. The team obviously watch the game back, and isn't he just so embarrassed to see it on the replay?

The French scrum was a very different animal with Domingo back, and I guess you're right that the locks can't be blamed for our front row's problems in the game. Cole has the very occassional brain fart, and Marler's scrummaging still worrries me a little.

I thought Vunipola was really goo dwhen he came on actually. The scrum held up well (although, the French row was changed), and his carrying was very very good.

It's easy to point the finger at props when scrums go wrong but I don't really think it's that simple. The props can very much decide who wins the hit, but the sustained drive is about the 8 players pushing as a unit. On this occasion the penaties weren't generally conceeded at the hit, and I thought the front row did a respectable job of trying to keep the scrum up and straight beyond that.

In shoving 2-3 seconds after the hit you need to look at the entire pack. I do think a lot of the problems came from having Wood at 8 (who probably wasn't getting as much power in as a bigger 8) and Lawes at 6 (who in my view was neither driving in to keep the tight 5 together nor keeping his shoulder pushing into the prop's rear end). If you get that it's a big chunk of your scrummaging power gone. You do expect to see flankers popping off the side, but it should only happen when the scrum is won, and they are getting ready to break off.

[dummy_half]

Ben Youngs as well chose the odd option of going high and standing off Fofana when tracking across.

Just generally a poor moment for the Eng defence, on the plus side you could see form the way the players restarted that it didn't bother them at all, absolutely no fear about going behind.

I think Youngs just got his angles wrong and under-estimated how quickly Fofana was travelling, so made a weak attempt at the cover tackle. Needs a lesson from Alex Goode on how to slow down a superior opponent (AG's half tackle on Picamoles, letting Cole finish off the covering work). A combination of Fofana being a very good player and some dodgy defending from three England players. Shouldn't have happened, but credit Fofana with recognising the mismatch against Lawes and that he could get to the outside virtually untouched.

[aitchw]

LondonTiger I wouldn't call Ashton's 3 YCs tackling. Basically shoulder charging.

Probably down to his rugby league background. Tomkins and Farrell Jr have shown indications of this too.

I think both players need to iron these out of their play.

Shoulder charging now illegal in League as well.

[Hound_of_Harrow]

When Fofana broke past Lawes I was yelling "Legs, legs" at the TV. What did Youngs do - play 'pat-a-cake' on Fofana's chest. See Parra's tackle on Tuilagi when he broke through for how to bring down a big runner.

Ashton's attempt was also flimsy, but he was wrong footed. But all round it was very poor defence.

If Morgan is fit then he has to play 8, with Wood going back to 6. Haskell has done really well when he has come on, and is crucial as back row cover.

I can't see SL changing much else for Italy.

[LondonTiger]

Ben Youngs as well chose the odd option of going high and standing off Fofana when tracking across.

He was high and too easily handed off. In general his cover defence is very good, but he does go high to try and wrap the ball

[kiakahaaotearoa]

My favourite moment was Brian Moore saying I don't know what you're on about when Eddie Butler was showing off his homo-erotic poet's side describing Haskell as a blonde giant and other such guff.

England weren't as accurate and were just as guilty as France of giving away needless penalties. But I think they showed great composure and didn't panic and SL made astute use of the bench and England finished the stronger.

Don't think we'll see Lawes at 6 again and would much prefer to see Wood there. If Vunipola is an impact player in SL's mind, then I'd prefer to see Haskell at 8 until Morgan is back from injury. Parling warrants a place alongside Launchbury so put Lawes to the bench.

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