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Wales Vs England match thread for yappy now the match is going ahead

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Post by king_carlos Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:12 am

What it says on the tin.

I can't believe Youngs has been dropped...

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Post by king_carlos Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:21 am

My attempt at predicting the England squad:

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Willis 8.Ludlam
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.Malins 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.Walker 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Isiekwe 20.Dombrandt 21.Mitchell 22.Smith 23.Arundell

Back row is a bit of a guessing game. Personally I'd start Arundell or Murley over Malins but I don't think that will happen.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:55 am

king_carlos wrote:My attempt at predicting the England squad:

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Willis 8.Ludlam
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.Malins 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.Walker 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Isiekwe 20.Dombrandt 21.Mitchell  22.Smith 23.Arundell

Back row is a bit of a guessing game. Personally I'd start Arundell or Murley over Malins but I don't think that will happen.
It sounds about right to me.  Though I prefer not to see Malins in the match day 23, I am sure you have that one right.  Strange, though interesting, insight into how Borthwick thinks.

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Post by yappysnap Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:43 am

Murley needs to come into the team, we're crying out for a bit more danger on the wings than the pacifists we currently have there.

Hopefully if Smith is benched he gets to come on earlier with the centres remaining unchanged. It's pretty unfair that he has to drag Farrell's carcass around the pitch whenever he plays.

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Post by yappysnap Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:44 am

doctor_grey wrote:
king_carlos wrote:My attempt at predicting the England squad:

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Willis 8.Ludlam
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.Malins 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.Walker 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Isiekwe 20.Dombrandt 21.Mitchell  22.Smith 23.Arundell

Back row is a bit of a guessing game. Personally I'd start Arundell or Murley over Malins but I don't think that will happen.
It sounds about right to me.  Though I prefer not to see Malins in the match day 23, I am sure you have that one right.  Strange, though interesting, insight into how Borthwick thinks.

Watson is another player living off past form who's probably a season or two over the hill. It's Nowell all over again.

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Post by king_carlos Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:26 am

Watson's been terrific this season when fit. He's struggling with staying fit these days but his form and crucially for a winger his pace and acceleration is still very much there when available.

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Post by yappysnap Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:48 am

I guess we'll see, but the staying fit and transferring that club form to Int both concern me.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu Feb 23, 2023 3:10 pm

Watson still has a role to play, a little unfair to compare him to Nowell I think who genuinely looked half the player he was. I would probably go as far as saying Watson is our best winger tbh.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:24 pm

Well good news that it's going ahead anyway.

I predict Borthwick will go

Genge George Sinckler
Itoje Chessum
Lawes Willis
Ludlam
vP Farrell
Malins Lawrence Slade Watson
Steward

Vunipola Walker Cole Isiekwe Ludlam Mitchell Smith Arundell

I'd swap out Lawes for Ludlam Smith for Farrell and have Murley in instead of Malins I think.

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:11 pm

It's a concern that Watson seems to be getting very injury prone as he gets older. Will he end up being another Tuilagi type who is brilliant when fit but just doesn't seem to stay there for any meaningful time.
Fortunately there are wing options and unlike Jones at least Borthwick is giving some a chance.

The big thing for Saturday is as and when Smith gets on assuming he's on bench, is what will the midfield look like.
I'd rather not see Farrell move to 12 or even worse Smith to 13 again.

As for Lawes, I'd have him on bench and start same backrow as last game.

Anyway, the guessing be over soon.


Last edited by mountain man on Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Geordie Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:13 pm

So everyone thinks Dombrandt will be benched....interesting.

I think he'll start the same back row.... Lawes on the bench

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:45 pm

oh. i put Ludlam in twice, no I reckon Dombrandt starts.

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Post by Geordie Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:oh. i put Ludlam in twice, no I reckon Dombrandt starts.

With Ludlum Benched for Lawes?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:09 pm

Meant to have a predicted starting backrow of Lawes Willis Dombrant with Isiekwe and Ludlam making up the bench (I'm doing some guessing on bib colours again from training). I reckon he's throwing Lawes straight in there. Slightly earlier announcement of the team by the looks as the press conference is at 12 30.

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:14 pm

Back row battle be some contest as that is one area where Wales are strong.
As previously, the respective benches could be key. England should have edge there.

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Post by hugehandoff Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:47 pm

I think we are all pleased that the Farrell/Smith is over, but more importantly now it is how England will play? The boring risk free territory game is a real turn off. I remember when Lancaster dropped Farrell for Ford in the 6Ns before the 2015 RWC. England were much improved. But a poor opening game against Fiji and Farrell was back in….and that turned out well. I think that Ford is probably our best bet for the RWC and he should be reintroduced as soon as he is ready - albeit that will never happen. So we just have to resign ourselves to continuing boredom from an ultra pragmatic England. Maybe it will have been better if the strike had actually happened?

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Post by Geordie Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:52 pm

Borthwick needs to give Smith a good half with that Midfield though...no 10 mins at the end with Farrell at 12.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:16 pm

Geordie wrote:Borthwick needs to give Smith a good half with that Midfield though...no 10 mins at the end with Farrell at 12.
I think we are all in violent agreement on this point. Let's hope.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:22 pm

I think Borthwick will be more concerned about securing the win than game time for Smith personally (unless he starts and this turns out to be utter tosh).

Nothing to base this on particularly, but I don't see Smith as a Borthwick 10. I can see him slowly being fazed out and Ford brought back in.

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Post by Geordie Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:30 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think Borthwick will be more concerned about securing the win than game time for Smith personally (unless he starts and this turns out to be utter tosh).

Nothing to base this on particularly, but I don't see Smith as a Borthwick 10. I can see him slowly being fazed out and Ford brought back in.

Yes but he will also be wanting to have an attack that can cause problems. At the moment Farrell at 10 isnt giving him that...and i dont think will.


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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:37 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think Borthwick will be more concerned about securing the win than game time for Smith personally (unless he starts and this turns out to be utter tosh).

Nothing to base this on particularly, but I don't see Smith as a Borthwick 10. I can see him slowly being fazed out and Ford brought back in.

I think you could be right there. I do think winning is crucial so first and foremost that has to be number 1 priority over anything, be it players, style etc. In longer term Ford may well be Borthwicks 10 rather than Smith.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:41 pm

Farrell isn't Carlos Spencer but he does pretty well in a Saracens backline, plus....It's his first game with that midfield, familiarity doesn't happen over night.

Whoever we go for, I just want them to spend some time on the field together so we can get some semblance of a cohesive backline.

Personally, I think it will be much easier to build a basic attack structure around Farrell than Smith and with 3 or 4 games left till the WC....the clock is ticking.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:44 pm

WC doesn't overly matter. Re cohesion, is that an important point? Surely if it doesn't work you just drop the players and move on quickly? Tongue in cheek!

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:32 pm

As before but with Watson instead of OHC.
Lawes on bench as expected.

Tidy.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:34 pm

Starting
15. Freddie Steward

14. Max Malins

13. Henry Slade

12. Ollie Lawrence

11. Anthony Watson

10. Owen Farrell (C)

9. Jack van Poortvliet

1. Ellis Genge

2. Jamie George

3. Kyle Sinckler

4. Maro Itoje

5. Ollie Chessum

6. Lewis Ludlam

7. Jack Willis

8. Alex Dombrandt

Replacements
16. Jack Walker

17. Mako Vunipola

18. Dan Cole

19. Courtney Lawes

20. Ben Curry

21. Alex Mitchell

22. Marcus Smith

23. Henry Arundell


And Curry back. Hopefully if he gets on he puts his previous behind him.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:34 pm

Wales team:

Wales: Halfpenny; Adams, Grady, Hawkins, Rees-Zammit; O Williams, T Williams; G Thomas, Owens (capt), Francis, Beard, AW Jones, Tshiunza, Tipuric, Faletau.

Replacements: Roberts, Carre, Lewis, Jenkins, Reffell, Hardy, Biggar, Tompkins

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Post by mountain man Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:35 pm

Yeah but Curry instead of Earl? Unless Earl injured that's harsh.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:42 pm

Earl was dropped earlier in the week. There was an update on T Curry at that point saying he was injured but nothing on Earl, and it was at that point that B Curry was called up, so less than a week with the squad I think.

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Post by Sharkey06 Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:47 pm

I can only think Borthwick is worried about speed to the breakdown and thinks Ben Curry can compete against Tipuric and Reffell better than Earl if Willis is under pressure. Wouldn't be my choice as a Sale fan.

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Post by dummy_half Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:09 am

Don't mind the England starting XV under the current circumstances - as with others, I remain to b convinced by Mallins as a winger, but Borthwick obviously likes the reassurance of a secondary fullback and playmaker.
Ben Curry for Earl seems an oddity, after the Scotland game. Earl hasn't set the world on fire, but looked the more solid of the two, and is a very dynamic player
Lawes available from the bench to cover 4-5-6 seems sensible - probably better than Isiekwe in all those positions.

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Post by lostinwales Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:29 am

Nothing much to add but its a forum so I'll just repeat the bits that I care about that other people have already mentioned.

1) Watson good for now, but just like everybody else his durability is a big issue. I guess Arundell fitness/lack of game time leaves him on the bench
2) Lawes for Isiekwe is a no brainer
3) Malins.... At least if the Welsh wingers show him up it may push Borthwick into looking at alternatives
4) Bets that a centre gets taken off for Smith who will then be left looking poor trying to force things with Farrell moving across

I do have high hopes for England at the weekend, especially with the disruption that Wales have suffered.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:52 am

Not sure why this coach is also trying to persist with the Halfpenny comeback? It's not on, it won't be on again. I don't have many complaints about the starting team, but I probably would have put Webb with O Williams, with Tomos on the bench. Tomos was poor versus Scotland. The bench is decent too, apart from Hardy who shouldn't be in the squad, and Biggar who should have been dropped completely.

I think England will win. Everything is too much for Wales this season, and I won't be surprised if we also lose to Italy (we'll certainly lose to France).

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri Feb 24, 2023 12:57 am

Back three options are all happy at fullback, suggests we're expecting the Welsh to kick and contest. Pretty good assumption given the pace of their wingers and Halfpenny at 15.

Burry for Earl sort of makes sense. In the last two games with Earl off the bench he's looked fair in attack but hasn't made much impact in defence. In both games we've looked tired and the opposition have applied pressure in the second half. I very much think Burry will be on to bring energy, tackle and contest. With Lawes likely to come on around the same time to add physicality and a fresh carrier.

I'm expecting us to work the Welsh pack hard around the park. Get those more experienced players blowing and target that young centre pairing.

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Post by RiscaGame Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:23 am

Gatland seems to be throwing darts blindly and hoping he gets lucky, in my opinion. Good backline overall, though I get the complaints on Halfpenny and certainly 9. It don't really get why he has reverted back to more or less the Ireland pack. I thought he wasn't far off it with the Scotland pack.


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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:33 am

Pretty much the best line-up Wales could go with?

On paper that's a good team that will push most sides...let's see where their heads are.

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Post by RiscaGame Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:40 am

Personally, I don't see how AWJ and Tipuric have trained the house down, to warrant reselection after the Ireland game. I guess Tommy Reffell and Jac Morgan didn't play that well against Scotland, but I would rather play either of those. Rhys Davies hasn't really been given a shot either.


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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:34 am

We're back to not knowing who our best halfbacks and centres are. The midfield is the U20 boys, they should do alright. Halfbacks, well I think we know who isn't the best (Hardy and Biggar).

No surprise to see Gareth Davies still going well for Scarlets.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:30 am

England team pretty much as expected and like the bench options. It will be a wait and see if there is any discernable game plan being executed. Given the numerous choices Borthwick has in pretty much all positions, have to hope he has picked out the form players or those best suited to the above mentioned game plan.
Welsh front five will have a functioning scrum but Beard & AWJ are there to counter the English maul legally and illegally respectively, but leaves a dearth of ball carriers in the front five, which will entail the Welsh back row having to be very busy with ball. The welsh midfield certainly not lacking in size but would hope Slade shows a clean pair of heels to this inexperienced pair. I don't believe Halfpenny can be the best FB in Wales but probably there for spot kicks.
My favourite game of the 6N.

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Post by BamBam Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:50 am

Good lord, are Wales STILL wheeling out Jones in the second row?

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Post by mountain man Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:52 am

BamBam wrote:Good lord, are Wales STILL wheeling out Jones in the second row?

Combination of wheeling and zimmer I believe.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:55 am

Jeez boys, I leave you alone for a short amount of time and you let Malins back in the starting XV. What are you guys doing?????

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri Feb 24, 2023 5:34 am

AWJ has been world class when facing the media, pretty good when you consider what’s been going down. I expect he’ll put in another world class shift against England.

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Post by chris_501 Fri Feb 24, 2023 6:48 am

That's a desperate selection if I've ever seen one. The same pack pretty much that struggled against Ireland. AWJ had been moved out of his starting berth well by Pivac, only for Gatland to take a backwards step and revert to selecting him there. If one of the starting second rows against Scotland needed to drop to the bench then it was Beard.

As for the backs, 10, 12 and 13 have 8 caps between them? Strikes me of throwing in anything and hoping it sticks. I imagine our plan will be to chuck it to LRZ and hope.

Does anyone think we are really in a better place for the WC than we were in November??

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Post by majesticimperialman Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:58 am

At the moment Wa;es are lying 6th in the 6 nations, if they finish in 6th place and have a bad world cup will they stick with Gatland or pay him off?

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Post by hugehandoff Fri Feb 24, 2023 10:03 am

Just watched the SB interview on the BBC…not really the sharpest tool in the box is he? He might know where to grip a player in the line out but selecting the right strategy and tactics????

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Post by TAFKA The Oracle Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:09 am

chris_501 wrote:That's a desperate selection if I've ever seen one. The same pack pretty much that struggled against Ireland. AWJ had been moved out of his starting berth well by Pivac, only for Gatland to take a backwards step and revert to selecting him there. If one of the starting second rows against Scotland needed to drop to the bench then it was Beard.

As for the backs, 10, 12 and 13 have 8 caps between them? Strikes me of throwing in anything and hoping it sticks. I imagine our plan will be to chuck it to LRZ and hope.

Does anyone think we are really in a better place for the WC than we were in November??

I'm wondering if he's just trying out things, but not all at once. Against Scotland Gatland went for relatively experienced backs with an inexperienced (relatively) pack. Against England, he's gone for the opposite. So maybe he wanted to try out this inexperienced back line ahead of the world cup but with an experienced pack to steady them? Unfortunately experience does not mean form! I would have at least started Dafydd Jenkins. And least one of Reffell or Morgan. Maybe even Christ to lock and those two starting or the flanks with Faletau. But overall, I think he's just trying out whole units with the relative safety net of experience in the other units (forwards v backs). Maybe.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:48 am

hugehandoff wrote:Just watched the SB interview on the BBC…not really the sharpest tool in the box is he? He might know where to grip a player in the line out but selecting the right strategy and tactics????

What Steve says in front of the camera bares little resemblance to what he says away from the camera apparently. Put a microphone in front of him and it's like he's swallowed the RFU media training manual. It was same at Tigers, occasionally he let's his guard down and something vaguely interesting comes out but generally his pre match interviews aren't going to gain any attention whatsoever.

In regards to selecting the right tactics and strategy he took Tigers from staring into the barrell of relegation to winning the league in two and a half years. With a full squad rebuild along the way. He's been to two world cups as an assistant coach where England reached the final in 2019 and 2015 where Japan beat Samoa and South Africa.

He's an astute coach, just one you don't necessarily want to listen to on the record.

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Post by dummy_half Sat Feb 25, 2023 2:55 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:Just watched the SB interview on the BBC…not really the sharpest tool in the box is he? He might know where to grip a player in the line out but selecting the right strategy and tactics????

What Steve says in front of the camera bares little resemblance to what he says away from the camera apparently. Put a microphone in front of him and it's like he's swallowed the RFU media training manual. It was same at Tigers, occasionally he let's his guard down and something vaguely interesting comes out but generally his pre match interviews aren't going to gain any attention whatsoever.

In regards to selecting the right tactics and strategy he took Tigers from staring into the barrell of relegation to winning the league in two and a half years. With a full squad rebuild along the way. He's been to two world cups as an assistant coach where England reached the final in 2019 and 2015 where Japan beat Samoa and South Africa.

He's an astute coach, just one you don't necessarily want to listen to on the record.

Was never the most interesting in post-match interviews as captain either...

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Post by king_carlos Sat Feb 25, 2023 5:36 am

I am enjoying seeing (not necessarily on here mind) many of the same fans who hated Eddie's antics in press conferences now dislike Borthwick's straight bat. Always something to grumble about. Personally I couldn't care less what's said in press conferences, short of something approaching hate speech obviously, so long as the rugby is improving.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:19 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Put a microphone in front of him and it's like he's swallowed the RFU media training manual.
If such a thing actually exists (most professional orgaisations really do have media manuals). I bet the RFU one has lots of pretty pictures of bunny rabbits, sheep (for the farm boys), butterflies, and so on.

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